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Fuel injected poll
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Posted by: Kav

Well it’s coming. Fuel injection will hit us dirtbikers’ some day. Cannondale gave it a shot with a system developed by OPTIMUM Power Technology. Montesa’s four-stroke trials bike has fuel injection system by Keihin, and Daverio Formula racing has been using a fuel injected CRF450 for Supermoto across the pond. So who is going to be the first major player to put a fuel injection system on a mass-produced dirtbike? Sadly I think it’s going to be a four stroke, but you never know we may get surprised with a fuel injected two stroke. Also what type of bike will it be a MX bike or a trail bike? If I were a betting man I’d say the first bikes to get them would be the CRF-X/WR-F line of bikes. I would think that making Green Sticker bike would be easier with fuel injection.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Some of the smaller Euro companies have already started shipping their EFI equipped dirt bikes so the Japanese can't be far behind. I'm going to see Doc Montgomery on Wednesday night and I'll ask him to stop in here and give us an update on his two-stroke EFI work.

Posted by: bedell99

Guys I wouldn't be surprised if we see a 2 stroke FI bike soon, but that really depends on the big 5 and if they want to develope 2-strokes anymore. i can see yamaha pulling a trick from under there sleeve and put it on there YZ250, but in all reality i think Honda will put it on there 4-strokes first.

Erik

Posted by: cr250can

Very doubtful anybody is going to invest into FI with 2-strokes. Unless it is BRP (formerly Bombardier) and they don't make bike. but they do make FI 2-strokes.

Posted by: dirt bike dave

Cycle News recently tested the fuel injected Gas Gas 450 in a comparison against the WR, CRX and EXC. If I recall correctly, they said if the battery was dead, the bike would not start with the kicker. But the motor ran good.

Posted by: cr250can

yep, some of the FI that I have seen on snowmobiles (artic cat) if the battery whent dead you had no start. Later on when cat went to "batteryless" EFI they would start and they didn't have a battery. Ski-doo sleds now don't require a battery. I wish some of that technology would migrate to bikes. the biggest advantage that sleds have for FI over Bikes is that they don't have the deal with weight like bikes do.

Posted by: Jasle

looks like the yamaha raptor quad is coming with FI next year. Should not be long til the mx guys get one.

Posted by: Dave.Smith

Cannondale's EFI lives on in the ATK line now (enduro and mx). As mentioned earlier, the Gas Gas 450 (enduro) has EFI and Sherco is using EFI on their 450 (enduro). Maybe the poll should be retitled to "Which of the Big-5 will be the first to enter the 21st century?"

Posted by: Zerotact

Yep, ATK has the cannondale line, it uses Sagem Components ( a division of johnson controls ) and the software was developed by Optimum Power. Optimum also makes a fuel injections system for 4t yamahas, but have failed to sell the idea to yamaha. It looks like Sherico, and gas gas bolth use Magneti Marelli injection systems. But without people who are familiar with how these systems work, and how to use them, it will be just like fuel injection in the early 80's.. everyone hated it, and no one knew how to fix them.. But now some 16 y/o street tuner can figure out a was to run 12 sec 1/4 mi on one...

Posted by: ktmboy

The only reason I voted KTM is because they've always been real progressive about bringing new things on their bikes like disc brakes, upside down forks, electric start, etc.

Posted by: clutchcover

I'm not sure why it's taken this long. They've been using batteryless efi on snowmachines for years. I guess it's a weight and bulk issue more than anything. My cat's system (or anything they've been using) wouldn't really fit on a bike, not to mention that it's a major PITA to problem solve when something goes wrong. Wasn't there issues with motors melting holes in the pistons with previous attempts? Something with internal cooling issuess?

Posted by: ScottS

And KTM has FI on the 950 -the 650 can't be far behind and then it;s a short jump to the 525/450. They are small enough to take the risk ( like gas gas ATk etc ) but big enough to do it right .

Now the 2 strokes, that would be cool.

Modern Gel batteries are pretty reliable.

Posted by: ZeCatfish

ATK had fuel injection severla years ago before Cannondale was a wet dream. I don't know the specifics of it but it was definantly done. So theres correct answer to your poll.

Posted by: Kav

Not really, Cannondale's and ATK's were never really mass produced. you don't see a Cannondale zippin' down the trail every day. I tend to put those bikes in with the TM's and the VOR's. They may be ahead of their time. But they are found in such limited numbers that very few people are luckily enough to see, let alone ride one. As a matter of fact I saw my first Cannondale dirt bike this past Saturday. The qustion is not who had the first FI bike ever, but who will bring it to the masses?

Posted by: Enduro_Nut

GasGas was the first FI bike in '03(400) that is 100% succesful
in a mass produced manner for dirt bike. I really love the power delivery... very smooth and no jetting.

Posted by: bedell99

If I would have to guess, it would be a Honda CRF450 that has FI on it. Just a hunch though, Honda has already developed it for the montessa trials bike and has been in production for 2 years. It is a batteryless keihn system if I remember.

Erik

Posted by: steve.emma

have seen reviews on the gasgas fse400 injected 4t bike and by all accounts it made for a very smooth power delivery.
fuel injection will happen to all 4 strokes before long...yes i know it weighs more but the advantages in terms of emissions and tuning far outweigh issues of weight and complexity. its doubtful if any manufactuer would bother with 2 stroke injection, not that it wouldnt be neat and good for emission reasons because it would. but sadly the major players dont seem to be pushing for 2t development as much these days... just look at kawasaki and the 125.

Posted by: Kav

Not pushing for 2T development? What about Yamaha or Suzuki? I think there's a strong possability that we will see a fuel injected 2T. While the 4T seems to taken over MX, the woods and the desert still seemed to be ruled by the smokers.

Posted by: steve.emma

maybe Kav, buts its motocross that most of the major players
are developing bikes for and as we know thats an arena that is more and more becoming dominated by four strokes so thats what will be developed and therefore injection is a very real prospect. woods and desert riding at any level is not what manufacturers push for as there is less money in it for them. so again sadly i cant see anyone making a injected 2t (dont get me wrong here it would be cool...) but why would they?

Posted by: hellbertos

Unfortunately I have to agree that the Big 5 are losing interest in 2T even though me, my buddies and many of the people on this and other boards are obviously interested in 2-strokes.

My gut feeling is Honda will eventually put it on the 450 and be the first...

...but my HOPE is Yamaha gives us a FI 2T that is Greeen Sticker compliant. I say Yamaha because they seem not to have given up on 2T, have excellent 2T motors (thus a solid 2T following) and the power to bring it to market. I almost voted for KTM because I agree that they are trend setters in bringing technology to market but felt Yammie might have a little more muscle.

I'd be on the waiting list if they brought out a competitive, emissions-approved 2T...

Posted by: BonChance13

ATK had the FI for it's 605 around'91...

Posted by: xsnrg

What about these Sherco enduro bikes? Looks like they are FI 250s and 450s...anyone ride one? Have any mags done any reviews on them? None that I recall seeing yet.

The 450 weighs in at 109 kg (240 lb per Google), has fuel injection, starter, and steel frame...the Honda 450x is 250 lbs...how can that be?

http://www.sherco.com/enduro.html

Posted by: john3_16

FI would bring a whole new relm of possibilities when it comes to tuning...

Downloadable FI maps...Perfect jetting at the click of a button...

Posted by: mxer842

In the space of 5 years the motocross industry has gone from engines where a 13 year old boy with a wrench set could rebuild a motor to needing a degree from MMI and a laptop to rejet an engine.

It takes a lot less mechanical skill to get a carb perfectly jetted and crisp across the whole range than it will to reprogram a FI system...not to mention that a new main jet costs $3, having a laptop in my trailor to work on my FI will cost over $500.

Posted by: MACE

Ever hear of Megasquirt? Good.

Now ever hear of Mini-Megasquirt? http://www.mini-ms.com/

DIY EFI for around $200 clams. ECU fits in a 4x6 box. All the hardware is on "that popular auction website".

Who's first for a home made system?

Posted by: Kav

My bike is totaly apart, so I'm game to see if I can get it to work on a 2T.

Posted by: OldTimer

Well, if the "Big Five" successfully develop a fuel injected 4T, how long will it be before some kid adapts it to work on his 2T? Then makes a fortune selling after market FI for 2T's.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldTimer

Then makes a fortune selling after market FI for 2T's.

Two-stroke riders complain about having to buy 1 piston each year, and you think they are going to pull off a carb that is already paid for to install EFI?

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Doc Montgomery from Bombardier is still working hard to keep the EFI direct injection two-stroke concept alive and I hope he succeeds. More choices in what we can buy at the OEM level is always preferable, but I doubt we'll ever see a successful aftermarket EFI kit.

Posted by: Kav

Speaking of that I need to buy a pistion for mine. (curses!)

I agree with Rich that there will not be a EFI Kit made for the 2T. And even it there is, I don't think it would sell well.

That said, I think the Mini-Megasquirt could be worth playing around with.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Kav - If you are serious about it here's some additional resource info. I'm pretty sure diy-efi.org is the group the the megasquirt came out of .

http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/

Posted by: bedell99

We'll what would happen in the off road industry if they came out with a FI 2stroke that was able to be green stickered? I personally think they would sell like hotcakes Kav.

Erik

Posted by: Kew-rider

Aprilia mass produced a 450 v-twin four-stroke fuel injected for 06'
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Artic...eID=2717&Page=1

Gas Gas also already makes a fuel injected bike.

Posted by: Masterphil

Suzuki has a fuel injected 450 quad this year, saw it on a commercial during Anehiem 1. If they can make a batteryless EFI system that measures MAF, Air Temp, and Baro, you'll never have to tune it again. It would never flood out in a crash, or flood out if you twisted the throttle trying to start it. I'm all for EFI so long as it dosen't add any(much) weight. I'm betting Yam will be the first, they've created the 4-stroke revolution and seem like they are willing to take the chance.

Posted by: BigRedAF

I saw an add for a new Suzuki Quad with there 450 thumper and it has FI.

Posted by: BigRedAF

Also as a Honda owner I've been getting surveys from Honda about there products in general. I'm not sure if I'm just the lucky spam mailer recipient or if they do this to everyone.

One of the recent questions was would I be interested in FI on a CR?

Posted by: sleepy

the small swedish bike company Highland motors have fuel injection on their new 450 bike.

Posted by: CROGGR

I would much rather see variable valve timing than just f.i. There would be way more power across the entire rev range as well as better throttle response. F.I. has yet to impress me. Maybe if they go to direct injection and not just throttle body there would be a measurable advantage!

Posted by: motoracer25

looks like more things to get broken but i think it is a good idea to start to make fuel injection

Posted by: motogps

According to Dirt Rider mag.p. 26 July issue, Yamaha, Suzuki, and possibly Honda will have fuel injected 450's for 07.

Posted by: tony91

Honda's got their 07 CRF's listed with carbs....check THIS out...

Posted by: AZRickD

Polaris recently purchased a large chunk of KTM. Polaris loves EFI. One would expect Polaris to push the technology. It could give a jumpstart to KTM in the realm of EFI (and since KTM still likes 2-strokes...).

I have a Polaris Ranger 700XP with EFI. Runs well from Phoenix at 1,000 feet and 115F to Flagstaff at 7,000 feet and 20F.

Rick

Posted by: mdkuder

KTM seems to do everything else first so why not this!

Posted by: Masterphil

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZRickD

Polaris recently purchased a large chunk of KTM.

No they didn't.
http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showto...0815&hl=polaris

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdkuder

KTM seems to do everything else first so why not this!

I think I'm going to have to change my vote to KTM as well. Just look at their new 450. A totally new, DOHC, E-Start ONLY bike. I wouldn't be suprised at all if they start EFI anytime soon.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdkuder

KTM seems to do everything else first so why not this!

What exactly have they done first?

Posted by: Masterphil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

What exactly have they done first?

A chromolly framed, linkless rear suspension, E-start only 450 MX race bike.
Producing an extensive line of full-blown woods and off-road race bike.
They also have the advantage of being small enough to experiment with EFI. I see the XC/XC-W line as a perfect test bed for EFI.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

A chromolly framed

You might want to check your history

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

linkless rear suspension

Again, better check your history, the linkless monoshock Yamahas were around since at least 1975. Back then KTMs still had twin shocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

E-start only 450 MX race bike.

You are probably right on that one. Not being a complete WUSSBAG, I never saw the need to have an e-start on my MX bike so I never paid much attention to who was building them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

Producing an extensive line of full-blown woods and off-road race bike.

John Penton was importing and racing Husqvarnas off road bikes in the mid 60s long before he ever built the first Penton motorcycles using an engine from small company named KTM. As a motorcycle manufacturer KTM came along much later. The Husky product line was incredibly extensive and included enduros, MX, and dessert bikes with both CR and WR transmission options and even an 8 speed dual range transmission . They also had a 390 automatic that was really cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

They also have the advantage of being small enough to experiment with EFI. I see the XC/XC-W line as a perfect test bed for EFI.

Honda has been shipping a batteryless EFI system on their 250 four-stroke trials bikes for over a year. The Honda & Montesa trials bikes are the same thing as Honda owns Montesa. They are way past the "experimentation" phase. They have a full blown production EFI system that you can already by a trick hot rod ECU for. Sherco and Gas Gas have also been shipping EFI off-road bikes for a while.

So much for "firsts".

Pictures : 1963 Husqvarna MX bike & Honda production EFI trials bike

Posted by: Masterphil

I...meant..that..stuff..all together.... (:bang

Supposedly, the E-start equipment adds no extra weight after the kick start equipment has been removed.
Ok. I got owned on the "extensive line" crap... (that Husky is purdy)
I...meant...on..like..a...big bike. (:bang

Yeah...that's what I meant to say.

I was right about the small enough to experiment part, though. A trials bike is definitely a niche market application.

Posted by: Masterphil

About that Montesa EFI system. What does the system measure to determine how much fuel to add? Is it MAP, MAF, or just locked in at a given pressure/altitude? Batteryless? Electric fuel pump or engine driven maybe?

Posted by: kawicam125

there are no EFI 4t's for 07' from any of the "big five". i have a feeling honda will do it first.( if not honda, ktm).

Posted by: OldassKDX

Heck, its the linkaged suspensions that really are the "new" thing. When was it, about 1981, that we (and by we I mean the general biking public) got linkaged suspensions? But I think that the spirit of Phil's post is mostly correct, even if Rich will dig through the annals of motorcycling history to prove him wrong. Until KTM introduced the modern linkless design, it was all linkages in the mainstream, except perhaps if you count ATK (and didn't CCM have one based around a Rotax engine?)

Posted by: Masterphil

Exactly! They just seem to go against the grain, if for no other reason than "because nobody else will".

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

Exactly! They just seem to go against the grain, if for no other reason than "because nobody else will".

Ask Cannondale how that worked out for them.

Other than from a basic simplicity standpoint, it could EASILY be argued that the linkage-less design has been less than a rousing success., but we get it, KTM guys like KTMs.

It refreshing to see loyalty in the dirtbike world even if it does foster a somewhat myopic and decidely orange tinged view of the world.

Posted by: SFO

I thought KTM guys liked KTM guys?

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

A chromolly framed,

This got me curious as to how far back 4130 steel usage goes.

As far back as 1970 even little companies like Rupp were using it on there 80cc enduros. My guess is it goes back way further than that.

The RMT 80's frame is a double downtube, single backbone type made from 4130 chrome moly

Posted by: Masterphil

I had no idea 4130 was used that long ago for dirtbikes.

I guess another question comes up with that, Why is KTM still using 4130, even in their all new 450, when every other company has switched to aluminum? Maybe because it works.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterphil

I had no idea 4130 was used that long ago for dirtbikes.

I guess another question comes up with that, Why is KTM still using 4130, even in their all new 450, when every other company has switched to aluminum? Maybe because it works.

There are advantages and disadvantages to any material. The trick from an enginerring standpoint is to strike the best compromises and still stay within the budget for the project.

Posted by: Masterphil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

There are advantages and disadvantages to any material. The trick from an enginerring standpoint is to strike the best compromises and still stay within the budget for the project.

Never a simple answer.

Posted by: OldassKDX

I had this thought a couple years ago when newbie thumper pilots were banging off the rev limiter instead of upshifting every straightaway. Since MX bikes are limited in RPM by getting ignition cut off at an astronomical RPM, there is a scary cylinder pressure increase when the engine suddenly stops firing. Using FI, why couldn't a bike manufacturer simply program in a rev limiter by cutting off excess fuel at a given RPM, not ignition? I looked into how efi street bikes do rev limiting and found mostly performance parts for eliminating the limiter, but my assumption is that they do things in much the same way. Rich....help me out brother, or at least tell me if I'm completely nuts.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

It's a lack of pressure that is the problem. If you stop the cylinder from firing there is no longer any pressure above the piston as the piston decelerates approaching TDC. When the cylinder is firing the combustion pressure works as a cushion to help slow the piston down. Without that pressure the rod is subjected to a much greater tensile load and often times a plastic failure of the rod near TDC.

Rod failures often occur when a rider shuts the throttle completely from high rpm for this very reason. It's more common to see a rider break an engine entering a corner than it is running down a long straight.

The point being, if you stop the cylinder from firing at peak revs it puts the crank, rod, main bearings and piston in harms way whether you cut the engine with the ignition or the fuel.

That said it would be possible with a proper engine management system to roll back the ignition timing, or cut fuel in a progressive way to slow the engine down rather than just killing combustion. But, it's important to remember that a large number of engine over-rev failures that I've seen were caused by riders mechanically over-revving the engine by driving it with the rear wheel (downshifting at high rpm, etc) . There is no rev-limiter, no matter how smart it is, that can stop riders from being stupid. The OEMs are in the business of selling parts so a simple rev-limiter might be better for business than a complex DUMBASS-limiter.

Posted by: colvere

Kawasaki is rummored to release an efi unit on the KFX700 this fall. I have also heard that a mechanical version is being tested for the soon to market KXf450. Suzuki already has a unit on there sport couch so maybe it migt show up on a DRZ400.

Posted by: OldassKDX

Rich, I submit to your technical mastery

This is a clear example of me thinking and saying (typing) in complete opposites.

At one point when I came up with my idea for FI I was thinking of exactly what you said. Somehow I got the idea completely bass-akwards. Its as if I plagarized my own brain only to find out the source was unreliable

I asked you to tell me I was nuts, instead you showed me without question.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

You are being too hard on yourself. I don't think the concept is all that intuitive.

The only reason I figured it out was I had the opportunity to see enough broken parts and talk to enough riders about what happened, to see some patterns form.

The funny thing is, people think the rev-limiter is some sort of engine savior, when the reality is quite the opposite. Running the engine 5 rpm UNDER the rev-limiter doesn't cause anywhere near the stress that hitting the rev-limiter does.

High rpm will eventually wear things out, hitting the rev-limiter will BREAK PARTS in a hurry.

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Fuel injected poll

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