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Rich,They changed it

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Posted by: CR3999

I have a 05 CR 250, I have run Mobil-1 (15-50) in the Trans for years now. ( with the red cap) Now they changed the label- Extended Performance with a gold cap. ( same weight ) Will it still be OK. I hope this is the right place to post this. I do not know who to ask that I trust, except Rich. Just a quick yes or no will help. If no tell what to run, got to be synthetic. Thank you!


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

It shouldn't pose any problems in a two-stroke gear box.


Posted by: dklink2000

What about in a four stroke?


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I personally stopped using it in my four-strokes.


Posted by: dklink2000

hopefully not because it grenades motors!


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:
Originally Posted by dklink2000
hopefully not because it grenades motors!


No worries there. Given the recent changes in the oil I think there are better choices for our use than the automotive version of Mobil 1.


Posted by: rick#3

What are you using now Rich?


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

On the engine side Mobil 1 MX4T 10w40, Mobil Delvac 1 or Phillips 66 Racing 15w40 .


Posted by: Jaybird

If you look at the Mobil1 EP 15w50 (gold cap) and the MX4T, they are very similar oils.
The MX4T contains only slightly higher levels of phosphorus, zinc, and moly than the 15w50. The 15w50, slightly higher in calcium. Negligible in the scope of things.
Only real advantage of the MX4T that I see is the viscocity. It is a slightly less viscous formula than the 50wt oil, which can contribute to better performance. (again, probably negligible performance increase...although autos DO see milage per gal differences with even slightly differing viscosities.)
The big difference between the two is the pricing.
~$8.00qt. MX4T
~$5.50qt. 15w50 gold cap
Both fluids are synthetic high performing fluids. IMO, there is NOT enough advantage in the MX4T to even come close to justifying the price difference.

When you look at the Delvac, or the Racing Phillips for that matter, you see middle of the road fluids. Not saying they won't perform, but they are not worth any sort of inflated pricing. (I have no idea of pricing of those fluids)

My thoughts on oil choice are like this: A motorcycle engine will chew up and shear just about ANY oil in short order. Adding mucho particulate from the clutch and you have a mess real fast.
The answer is to change out our oil long before the oil has a chance to degrade, if for no other reason than to get rid of the excess metal particulates.

Since we are changing our oil out before it can degrade, we can use just about any organic oil and be protected. BUT...we sometimes tend to see higher temps than organic dino oils can withstand. The answer is to use a synthetic oil, which can withstand far greater temps than the dino oil.

Since we have our oil in the box for a very short time, I feel that we need to chose an oil that has elevated levels of extreme pressure and anti-wear additives. And yes, elevated friction modifiers.

It only makes sense that we provide the metal with the most protection we can. Especially if the addtion of high additive levels do not effect any other aspect of the engine.
Conventional wisdom states that we need to chose an oil that is not an "Energy Conserving" rated oil. Many equate this to clutch slippage, which I contend is mostly hogwash.
Folks here "friction modifier" or "moly" and they freak. They seem to think that it is a given that their clutch will slip if they use an oil with moly. I doubt it very seriously!
Moly powder...or MoS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide) is NOT what performance motor oils are fotified with. But rather another form of molybdenum that is a much finer, oil soluable form of the mineral, MoDTC (Molybdenum DialkyldiThioCarbamate). This product has been shown to be used in very high levels with NO wet clutch slippage when the oil's viscocity remains constant.
Moly is one of the best items our oils can contain. As are zinc and phosphorus.

If I want to keep spending off the shelf prices, I will chose a full synthetic oil with the same additive package as a high-dollar couterpart. Mobil1 15w50 gold cap would be a good choice, and an even better one would be NAPA brand (Ashland Refineries) full synthetic. Great analysis with a robust additive package and at ~$3.50 qt it's hard to beat
IF I am going to spend ~$8.00 a quart for oil, I want one that has an additive package that warrants an increased price. Redline 10w40 synthetic would be one of these.
Loaded with good stuff. It is a serious oil with serious components, compared to it's marketing laden couterparts.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybird
When you look at the Delvac, or the Racing Phillips for that matter, you see middle of the road fluids.


I'm curious Jay. Where exactly did you find data on the Phillips oil? Given that it isn't a general release product, usually isn't found outside of a NASCAR garage, and they've in the past been fairly tight lipped about the specifics. It's interesting to me that you found a source for analysis data.

Care to share the source? PM is ok if you don't want to burn a source. I'll gladly keep a secret.


Posted by: Jaybird

I have only seen full analysis on the Phillips 5w30. http://63.240.161.99:8080/bitog/voa...illips-5w30.jpg
It shows to be a bit anemic as far as the add pack goes. Not a for sure thing, but mfg's tend to stick with similar type values on their other products. I admittedly am making some assumption.
What I can find on the Racing fluids is the product data sheets that Phillips provides. http://www.phillips66lubricants.com/TechData/index.htm
The Phillips Racing Oil *(20w50), shows a Total Base Number of 7.5, which would be indicative of an addequate add pack, but sort of the lower end of the scale for high performance oils.
The Phillips Racing Blend looks like a better oil, IMO. (15w40) A TBN of 9.5 would be indicative of a much more robust add pack. Bit higher zinc levels as well.

When I say middle of the road...I am not really indicating "mediocre".
I guess what I mean is, there are scads of oils that will have additive packs that are similar to oils that are marketed as the latest and greatest at an inflated price.
$.88 Havoline comes to mind. As good of oil, or better, than many, many priced 2-3 times higher.

One thing we can't always gleen from analysis is the propriatary additives that the mfg's use. Some of the higher priced oils actually do have ingredients that won't even show up on conventional analysis.
(COUGHmobiloilCOUGH) The only way we can really know how to stack up one high dollar oil against another is to actually put both fluids through similar conditions and check them for metal content, and measure the parts areas. The end results are all we can really go by as far as making an intelligent decision on which is better.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I had a feeling we were talking about different oils. The Phillips racing oil I was referring to is a special bland mineral based 15w40 oil. For an engine like the CRF450 I don't think it represents a good cost/benefit ratio at $15/liter but in some more highly stressed applications it has proven to work really well, especially in cases where the valve springs are really highly stressed.

I've seen some really great long term results from Mobil Delvac 1 (the diesel synthetic blend) in some high stress air cooled applications, and it has proven to be a pretty good choice in some of the newer single compression ring setups where the oil is routinely contaminated by combustion byproducts.

I've gotten enough positive feedback from folks I trust to believe Redline is a good product as well, although I've never used it personally or dealt with anyone long term that has.

I take apart a lot of engines that look like JUNK inside despite claims by riders that they use high quality big name oils, and I've seen outstanding wear patterns from less flashy oils like Yamalube 4R. Bottom line from my experience is simple, clean oil beats dirty oil no matter how much you paid for it.


Posted by: SFO

Any thoughts about lubemaster?
They are part of certified labs.
Our treatment plant uses their products and the jobber delivers timely but the salesman is a shmuck and there is precious little data on the internet concerning their products.
I am curious if this an amway type jobber.


Posted by: SFO

sorry about the thread jack, but seeing as you are both together on the same thread...


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I've never heard of the stuff Bill, but I know who to ask.

While I have you, did Tony Tice contact you about some SuperMoto stuff?


Posted by: Vince Stokes

Have you blokes tried Penrite 10/10s, its suppose to be very heat resistant.


Posted by: Jaybird

I also like diesel fluids, as they fortify the heck out of them.
I would give the Delvac 1300 a look (15w40). It seems to be a much more robust fluid than the Delvac 1 (5w40). It also has MoDTC, very important IMO.

My curiousity has been piqued about the Phillips "NASCAR" 15w40.
I know in the product sheet it eludes to being a organic/synthetic blend. However, I'm not so sure...
The literature only "eludes" to this fact...however, I can't imagine them using any dino oil at all in this formulation.
With a flash point of >400f I would think the base contained polyalphaolefin.
And if it were me formulating something for a nascar engine, I would be thinking a blend of esters and PAO. Perhaps this is the true blend they are reffering to??

I have also heard that Philips has a special well that provides them with a very nice grade of crude that they use to formulate their better oils. But, I can't imagine any dino oil performaing to the level of any synthetic base fluid.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Jay - I'll see if I can get you some specifics on the Phillips stuff.


Posted by: SFO

no tony tice contact.
feel free to forward my contact info.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFO
no tony tice contact.
feel free to forward my contact info.



I already did



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