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VP fuel in stock bike

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Posted by: yzmann28



I own a 2000 yz 125 and I am thinking of running race gas tooptimize performance,I am wondering if  it is safe to run some type of vp fuel in a  relatively stock bike my mods are(pc pipe and silencer,v-force rad valve)or would this burn up my engine.I f I can run vp fuel any reccomendations as to what type of vp fuel
Also would this affect my jetting greatly?

Thanx for your help


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Race gas won't hurt your engine. If you run VP C12 it will tend to make the bike run rich. If you are willing to jet it sharp there are throttle response advantages to be gained. Whether or not it's worth the money depends on how sharp you are willing to jet it.


------------------
Rich Rohrich

"Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it."
               - Albert Einstein


Posted by: 00RM723

race fuel can be an advantage to alot of people.....for one thing race fuel burns at a slower and cooler rate.......this means if jetted properly.....it helps to prevent detonation under extreme heat and riding style.......its up to u if u want to.....yes its more expensive...but u can run half and half if u like.....but if u do any motor mods like shaving the head or cylinder any to tighten it up.....u will have to or u will detonate it to death......but on a stock bike u might get 1 to 2 hp if jetted right....but it will run cleaner everywhere when done properly


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

00RM723 - I know you are fairly new here so don't take this personally, but there were a few inaccuracies in your post that always hit hot buttons with me when they get posted in this forum.

00RM723 wrote
  
Quote:
for one thing race fuel burns at a slower and cooler rate


It's a commonly held misconception that higher Octane fuel slows down the flame speed, which keeps the engine from knocking. Flame speed is a function of fuel chemistry (specifically Hydrogen/Carbon ratio), not the Octane rating. The Hydrogen/Carbon make up of the fuel will determine the flame speed whether it's a high-octane fuel or not. Racing fuels designed for high rpm applications tend to have higher flame speeds than normal to help reduce burn time. There isn’t much time available to complete the combustion cycle at 10,000rpm, so choosing the right fuel can really make a difference. Choosing a faster burning fuel will allow you to run less ignition advance, and potentially make more power at higher revs. The heat of combustion at a simple level is basically a function of combustion efficiency and the calorific (energy) value of a fuel. There isn't a lot of energy difference between most conventional fuels, but combustion efficiency can sometimes be improved with race fuels so a bit more heat release is possible. Overall it's pretty much a wash though.**


00RM723
  
Quote:
but on a stock bike u might get 1 to 2 hp if jetted right....


Generally speaking this isn't true. Conventional race fuels will not produce more power in an engine that isn't detonating. Even in an engine that is experiencing detonation there is no guarantee that raising the octane and stopping the detonation will show a performance increase. The exception to this is the case where the race fuel brings some additional oxygen to the combustion process, or the fuel uses exceptionally high-energy components. Some of the more advanced fuels use a bizarre mix of high-energy components that can produce more power by raising the overall calorific (energy) value of the fuel, but these are incredibly expensive fuels that aren't common or readily available. There are a number of readily available fuels that contain oxygenates which can provide additional oxygen to the combustion process. While the oxygen itself provides no additional energy, it does allow additional fuel to be burned in the process and the energy released by this additional fuel can increase horsepower. The AMA has specific limits on the oxygenate content of fuels for this very reason.

------------------
Rich Rohrich

"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - and yet it is the most precious thing we have."
************** - Albert Einstein
<p align=right> 06-17-2000 :Edited
[ By Moderator ]


Posted by: johnv

if you want to use race gas, I think VP-RED is 100 octane, probably better suited for a stock motor.

John


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

VP Red is pretty workable in slow revving, low rpm engines like XR600s & XL650s, but it's not a particularly good choice for an engine that runs over 7000 rpm. Still beats pump swill though.




Posted by: Lorin

I have the chance to get some unocal 100 or 110 through a friend for a reasonable price (around $3 per gallon) in a 55 gallon drum.&nbsp;&nbsp;Is this a pretty good fuel?&nbsp;&nbsp;I would be using it in a two stroke, air-cooled WR500 that rarely sees the top end of the powerband.&nbsp;&nbsp;Which of the two would be better to run, the 110 or 100?&nbsp;&nbsp;The price between the two is neglible.&nbsp;&nbsp;WouldI most likely have to go leaner on the jets running this fuel?&nbsp;&nbsp;Lastly, other than storing it out of the sun, is there anything else (aside from condensation) that I need to be wary of to maintain the longevity of the fuel in a 55 gallon drum, it would probably take me 4 to 6 months to run through it.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Lorin - Buying this much fuel and using it at the rate you described will pretty much guarantee you'll have 10-15 gallons of good fuel, and 40 gallons of expensive junk. Not to mention how dangerous it is having a 55 gallon drum half filled with fuel and half filled with fuel vapors sitting near your house. I'm glad I'm not your neighbor http://208.56.125.175/forums/ubb/smile2.gif&nbsp;&nbsp;The local fire department frowns on this sort of thing, and your insurance company will likely shut you out if you start a fire. You will be far better served buying the fuel 5 gallons at a time in a sealed can.

For you application the 100 octane should work just fine. As for jetting, I have no idea what's in the fuel you are running now so I can't be much help.




------------------
Rich Rohrich
==

In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Galileo Galilei



Posted by: Lorin

Thanks Rich, that is the kind of answer I was looking for.&nbsp;&nbsp;No need to shut the neighborhood down on my account.&nbsp;&nbsp;The last thing I need is 40 gallons of "charcol lighter" sitting in my garage.&nbsp;&nbsp;


Posted by: Carbohydrate

I am new here, this may have been covered before. I was running VP C-12 full strength on the recommendation of the mechanic at the bike shop , mixed 40:1 with Redline Racing oil. I did some investigation on my own and discovered that Phillips 66 has a fuel called B32 that appears to have a very similar distillation curve, and octane rating to C12. It is selling at the local 66 jobber for 2.56 a gallon, even in the light of todays inflated fuel prices. I have found no noticeable performance differences, and the jetting remained the same with both fuels. My bike is not heavily modified, pipe, silencer, Boyesen reeds, and the Vortex carb mod by Pro Action. In my case, this fuel has performed well at a savings of about 2.40 a gallon. The mechanic recommended race fuels on the basis that they are more consistant than the pump fuels, and the jetting doesn't change as much. Any comments would be appreciated..


Posted by: Offroadr

I just started using B32 also. Rich recommended B35 but the local Phillips distibutor doesn't keep it in stock. I would like to try B35 though. I did notice an improvement in throttle response before I had made any jetting changes. More to be had with time!




Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Phillips66 B32 is an excellent race fuel. For most people it will provide plenty of octane and the distillation curve will give great throttle response. For many people VP C12 is easier to get but given the choice between VP or Phillips products I tend to favor the Phillips stuff. Okie has run both C12 and B35 (similar to VP MR2) and seems to prefer B35. Either one was a quantum leap over pump gas.

------------------
Rich Rohrich
==

Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

******~ Albert Gyorgyi**


Posted by: Yamamoto

I am new here Rich .....But I wanted to Thank you for Info. You give. You have a talent and know how to use it.


Posted by: CAL

Rich, Okie, others,
Where do you find suppliers for your race fuels? In my area(within driving distance) I have located ONE (1) station that sells Sunoco 110 octane(Cam2) leaded fuel. That's it, no choices, nothing for me. Do you go directly to petrol. distibutors?
Thanks


------------------
Woodsman
1996 KX250


Posted by: Yamamoto

I guess I am lucky to have a VP station 3 miles away from me. But for about 2 years it was there I never even knew it...call Information and see if there is a VP near you.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Woodsman - The Midwest distributor for Phillips race fuel is Precision Automotive Research (Dr. Dave Redzsus) 630-766-4402 ( parbrowser@aol.com ). They are located in Bensenville, Il . If need be they can ship fuel to you via Fed-Ex ground


Posted by: KawieKX125

Are there any phillips dealers in CT? I use VP products, but c-12 is 5 bucks a gallon! I am hoping phillips is cheaper. Also Rich, If I use about 5 gallons of gas a week in the summer, would it be worth it for me to get a 55 or so gallon drum?? The shipping costs and drum costs are probably to High to justify the cost though

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Aaron's web site


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Phillips deosn't have any real coverage on the east coast. Buying a 55 gallon drum is a BAD idea. Storing that much fuel is dangerous, and it's very difficult to keep it from being compromised unless it's used fairly quickly. You should be able to find VP fuel locally.




Posted by: kevkon

This sounds like the race spark plug vs stock plug issue. Just because a product has "racing" in its name doesn't mean you get any performance benefit. Racing fuels are designed for specific applications or in response to certain needs. The primary one
being controlled ignition, which becomes a problem with higher compression ratios and operating temp. If your not experiencing pre-detonation with your pump gas( and you shouldn't in stocker) then save yourself some money and keep using it. Rich is absolutely correct on the advice about bulk fuel, especially if you don't need it in the first place!
A few other considerations that I didn't see mentioned are "pump gasoline" octane levels can vary from their posted rating, they can also contain additives put in by the refiner which you may not want.
Rich, I am curious as to why the VP gas you mentioned could cause a fatter mixture.Why is this?


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:
Originally posted by kevkon:
This sounds like the race spark plug vs stock plug issue. Just because a product has "racing" in its name doesn't mean you get any performance benefit.


That is totally INCORRECT. The makeup of the "CORRECT" race fuel for a given application will provide a performance advantage even in a totally stock engine. Performance is not always measured in absolute peak horsepower like the magazine dolts, and advertising guys would lead us to believe.

Quote:
Originally posted by kevkon:
Rich, I am curious as to why the VP gas you mentioned could cause a fatter mixture.Why is this?


The distillation curve of VP fuel the is a better match to these engines. For a given volume of fuel (jet size) more fuel gets vaporized and is available in the combustion chamber to react with the available oxygen than their would be with pump fuel. The VP allows less fuel to pass through the engine in the liquid state and out the exhaust. The ability to jet closer to the engines actual NEEDS makes for a profound difference in response and power at higher rpm.

I can't help but laugh everytime I see some guy pull up to the pumps with a totally tricked out bike in his truck only to fill up his gans cans with some 10% alcohol, EPA mandated pump swill.

YEAH, you guys are right, there are NO advantages to running race gas in a stocker L O L http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/biggrin.gif http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/biggrin.gif




Posted by: MoO_coW

Not to get off topic to much but what gas station has the best gas?


Posted by: bwalker

Moo, Pick your poison. They all are pretty terrible, especially those with 10% alcohol.

------------------
Ben Walker
00 cr 250
BRC,AMA,NRA Member


Posted by: MoO_coW

How do I obtain race gas then? Also how much does it run?

------------------
1998 CR 125 MoO machine.
"To much honey is bad for you"


Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Look in Cycle News. Most of the race fuel distributors advertise there.

------------------
Rich Rohrich
==

"Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it."
- Albert Einstein


Posted by: CAL

Thanks Rich for the supplier info.
I got lucky and found a Sunoco supplier(race car builder down the road).

I agree with you about race fuel helping even stock bikes. I was having trouble jetting my carb, and started running 110 leaded Sunoco and the bike runs perfect. I have actually ridden 4 times now without fouling a plug. Some friends think I'm crazy to spend $4/gal. on fuel for a bike that isn't raced, but the consistency is worth it to me alone, not the mention the smell http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

------------------
Woodsman
1996 KX250



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