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suggestions for a NON o ring chain!

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Posted by: bclapham

OK, so i did a search on O ring mainataince and my head hurts!

So i decided the best chain option for my MXer is a normal chain.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good normal chain that will get used on a 250 in the dry and dusty so cal conditions.

thanks

BC


Posted by: los36

they're all pretty good, as long as you pay the extra money and get the "racing" chain. I use AFAM's MC2 gold racing chain.
Pretty much every chain manufacturer has a gold racing chain. It's my opinion that they're worth the extra money because they seem to last nearly twice as long as regular (or stock) chains before stretching beyond usable limits.


Posted by: KiwiBird

Bruce, here's my method.

1. Buy O ring chain, fit and adjust to new sprockets.
2. Adjust as necessary. Lube if bike washed or in mud (like that happens much).
3. Replace when worn out - I usually get a year of HARD riding out of a chain.

Is that simple enough for you?


Posted by: bclapham

Quote:
Is that simple enough for you?


please be nice kiwi! my head still hurts from reading all of the posts regarding o-ring maintainance! but i get your point, if you get a year on the beast!

thanks

BC


Posted by: MXP1MP

maintence on an o-ring chain? I thought that was the whole point of getting an o-ring chain so you could use and abuse it and maybe do maintence on it once in awhile. I don't do anything special for o-ring chains just lube'em and adjustment like normal. If I was going to get a non o-ring I'd go for did ERT gold.


Posted by: KiwiBird

:confused: OK Bruce, in respect for your noggin, here's the simplified, simplified directions.

1. Put it on and wait until someone says "isn't your chain a bit loose?", then adjust it until someone says "isn't your chain worn out" then replace it (and the sprockets).

If you were an aussie I would probably simplify it again but I expect more from a pom.


Posted by: yzeater

Let me add something usefull to the pot. I got a DID X-Ring chain about 4 rides ago, and I really like it. Cost was $76, which is fairly cheap. It looks great (it's gold). I simply clean it for about two minutes after every ride, and there has been no stretching so far. BTW Bruce, I spent a day at the pool last week with a guy by the name of Junior Seau, you ever heard of him?


Posted by: bclapham

Quote:
OK Bruce, in respect for your noggin, here's the simplified, simplified directions.


Kiwi: i think more explanation is required, maybe we can find a pub someware between santa clarita and SD.

Ive never owned an o-ring before, so i did a search to see what info i needed, only to find page after page of intense discussion regarding maintainance, so please understand where i am coming from (or going to)!

yzeater, i may well go for the x-ring, at $120 for the full set thats a good price (btosports).

i have heard of seau, he even has a resturant here that ive been to.


thanks guys

bc


Posted by: KiwiBird

bc - I've got a great brewery in Valencia if you get up my way - Wolf Creek Brewery.


Posted by: bclapham

maybe when the rugby world cup is on?


Posted by: Jaybird

Tsubaki 520 QR Pro-Gold, 7,550 tensile strength, solid bushings/rollers, pre-stretched

D.I.D. 520ERT, 8,470 tensile strength, solid , shot peened

Regina 520RX3 , 7.650 tensile strength, thick plates

Any high end Sidewinder

You are making the correct decision, m8.


Posted by: KiwiBird

BC - you're on, I hear poms like to cry in their beer........


Posted by: motometal

I would have to agree with most of the others here...

o-ring chain maintenance? what maintenance? that's the whole idea!

the posts you refer to dictating "gotta do this, gotta do that, can't do that" are written by guys that have a whole lotta time on their hands to tinker with the bike for fun, and/or have been brainwashed into thinking certain procedures are "required" when they are actually "optional"

back when I used to ride about 5 hours a week 9 months a year, I was changing my (o-ring) chain once per year, and it would still be in very usable shape (usually a friend on a low budget would "inherit" last years chain, and it see several more years of service). Adjustment was required only a few times per year, and this was with zero lubing. No special cleaning was done on the chain, just careful powerwashing after muddy rides. Ok, I will admit a few times I would chase the water off with wd-40, that that was it. Sprockets would last at least the whole season, if not longer. Most of these chains were RK, which are not much more expensive than a good non o-ring chain.

I rode in a variety of conditions, from dusty mx tracks to muddy creek crossings to sandy hill climbs.

This is what I did for many years, and it worked. Tough to argue with that.


Posted by: bwalker

I run a DID x ring and Renthal sprocket combo on a cr 250 for two seasons then sold it to a guy I ride with who has run it all this season. The chain and sprockets have had it by now but its been alsmost three years. I used nothing other than wd-40 to chase the water off after washing. That being said I am running the same chain on my af and have been using jaybirds special lube. I adjust it every few weeks and it is holding up well considering its subjected the massive torque of a cr 500. By the way it looks now I hope to get two seasons out of it. Not to bad for a 500.


Posted by: bclapham

thanks guys, i am convinced!

X ring on its way!


Posted by: Jaybird

<----Still contends a non-ring chain can last longer than a ring chain.

motometal, the "point" of o-ring chains was not to remove maintenance, it was designed for adverse conditions with the chain being run where dirt and particulate can enter the bushing. There are still friction surfaces that are not being protected and need lube.
I realise that you will get "what you consider to be" good life out of the chain, but try realising your savings if you actually got three times the life you now see...hmmm, that's a bit hard to argue with as well, no?
I know you think I spend hours and hours with my maticulous chain maintenance procedures, but would you believe me if I told you that I can completely clean(no matter how muddy), dry (yes dry), and effectively lubricate my chains in about 120 seconds? Also, I can do this anyplace, anytime with no power washers available. You like time stats, so time yourself at the car wash next time....see if you can even clean the chain in 120 secs. Wait...no lube...you might actually get it done.

btw...I'm not, nor do I try to brainwash folks. It's just that part of my living is made concerning chains and sprockets, and I have spent many many hours on testing and the study of such.


Posted by: motometal

Jaybird, while I totally respect your opinion, and actually enjoy debating this topic...

Who cares about the original intention of the inventor of the o-ring chain? I don't care if it was supposed to be a paperweight, a necklace, or whatever...what's important here is what works on a dirt bike!

If I never used anything outside it's intended purpose, or never maintained a product differently than it's designer, well, my world would be chaos.

And you are right, when you don't goober all of that lube (which likes to attract sand and dirt and make a nice grinding paste by the way), cleaning really becomes a non-issue.

Last time we had a hot debate going on this, I did actually do a time study type model on it, and I think I proved that, depending on what your time is worth, o-ring chain "maintenance" isn't really "worth" it. I noticed the thread got real quiet after that post, hopefully I provoked thought or at least showed a viewpoint, backed up with numbers and real experience, that was of use or interest to a few here on DRN...

Last of all Jaybird, if you will agree with at least one point...it's really backwards for someone to be discouraged away from buying an o-ring chain (which should at least require reduced maintenance) because of posts on DRN leading this guy to believe o-ring chains are a maintenance nightmare...


Posted by: yzeater

Quote:
Originally posted by Jaybird
[Bwould you believe me if I told you that I can completely clean(no matter how muddy), dry (yes dry), and effectively lubricate my chains in about 120 seconds? Also, I can do this anyplace, anytime with no power washers available
[/B]


I'll bite...is this your special skill or is it something we can all do? Can you tell us how?


Posted by: Jaybird

Quote:
Originally posted by motometal
I would have to agree with most of the others here...
o-ring chain maintenance? what maintenance? that's the whole idea!
I was merely stating the original intent of o-ring chain design to dispel the (widely accepted, yet incorrect) theory that o-ring chains are to relieve you of maintenance.
Quote:
Originally posted by motometal
And you are right, when you don't goober all of that lube (which likes to attract sand and dirt and make a nice grinding paste by the way), cleaning really becomes a non-issue.
ah ha! Yes indeed “some” lubes will do as you described, but if one uses the proper lubricant, cleaning is just as much a non-issue.
Quote:
Originally posted by motometal
Last time we had a hot debate going on this, I did actually do a time study type model on it, and I think I proved that, depending on what your time is worth, o-ring chain "maintenance" isn't really "worth" it. I noticed the thread got real quiet after that post, hopefully I provoked thought or at least showed a viewpoint, backed up with numbers and real experience, that was of use or interest to a few here on DRN... [/B]
I remember your time study well. I did not want to blow it out of the water, so I didn’t reply as you requested. Look back and see if your study was even close to the 120 seconds that I claim. One of us either does or would spend Way too much time fiddling around if your study was correct. On that much I agree with.
Quote:
Originally posted by motometal
Last of all Jaybird, if you will agree with at least one point...it's really backwards for someone to be discouraged away from buying an o-ring chain (which should at least require reduced maintenance) because of posts on DRN leading this guy to believe o-ring chains are a maintenance nightmare... [/B]
Not once have I ever tried to discourage anyone from buying an o-ring chain. I have one and use it when the need for it arises. That need is a sloppy, adverse condition ride. I simply contend that folks can get plenty more life out of things if they maintain them properly. So many folks think that o-ring chains are Gods gift to us and that standard chains are now taboo. I actually spend the exact same amount of time on either type of chain.
If I can get more life out of a standard chain than you can out of an o-ring chain, perhaps I’m on to something….hmmmm. BTW…why would you take off your ring chain after a year when it is not worn out? Like spending money? Do you not look at the growth of the chain and condition of your sprockets to make the determination of when to change them out?

Also, on one of your previous comments, many things are “optional” like changing out your gear box fluid more frequently than every blue moon. Or, letting the gas out of your forks that has built up from your rank, rotting, oxidized fork oil. Or, greasing your stearing stem bearings. Or…etc….
I had a buddy when I was a kid…we had horses and rode together. My Dad was very emphatic about proper equine maintenance. He always told me to NEVER ride your hoss and put eem up wet. I never did do this, not just because I believed he was correct, but because he would have whooped me within an inch of my life if I did. My buddy, on the other hand rode his till it was heaving and sweating like mad and would just put him in the stall. His horse died of pneumonia. Mine died of old age.
Btw…I too enjoy debating with you, my friend!

Yzeater….I have desinged a system that uses a gadget that allows me this luxury. It’s not on the market yet, but will be.


Posted by: motometal

To answer your question of why I would replace the chain every year...

I did have to adjust the chain a few times each season. So, as you know, the chain would progressively wear thruought the season. I have learned that what works best for me is to replace the chain once per year (or once per 2-3 years for as much as I have been riding lately) and only replace the sprockets when they get very worn. I have also noticed that a good chain will allow worn sprockets to be used for a much greater length of time without the teeth breaking off.

I do not believe in changing both as a set, this is a conspiracy for the parts companies to sell more parts. Uh oh, here come the black helicopters!!!

I never noticed much wear on the rollers of the chains (even though there is no lube sealed in there). A few of the chains showed weather checking or cracking, which could have possibly been avoided with a regular lathering of some type of lube. By this time, even with the factory grease still intact, there was enough wear between the pins and bushings that I felt it time to replace the chain, so for my purposes, preserving the o-rings wouldn't have made much difference.

I tend to be pretty tough on chains, lots of gassing it as I land, and we have lots of crappy jumps in Iowa with flat landings.


Posted by: Jaybird

First off, if you have worn teeth on either sprocket, it was the chain that did it. That is assuming all parts were new and placed in service as a set.(think what you will about marketing practice)
The only way a good sprocket will deform is from chain growth. Aaa...I may get some flack from the big cc guys, but I contend that all good hard anodized al. or high carbon steel, or stainless sprockets can withstand just about anything any dirtbike can dish out without any deformation of the teeth. Now, a chain that wears will indeed deform a sprocket due to pitch change, pure and simple. A big bore bike will accelerate the wear proccess once the chain starts to grow. That is what gives the appearance of big bore bikes eating them, not the actual brute stregth of the bike that does it....well maybe a little, ....heck no, I can't even go there. I'd have to be proven that to change my mind. Maybe if it uses a crap sprocket.... anywho....

That brings me to the growth. ALL chains will stretch a little bit when first placed in service. A chain that has been proof stretched at mfg. will not grow nearly as much as one that has not, but once the initial growth (which is the only REAL stretching the chain EVER does) period is over, wear of the friction surfaces is what causes the chain to change pitch. I've already described what happens when pitch changes.
Now for your comment about the lube inside....How do you know that there was still sufficient lube in the area between the pin and bushing? I can't imagine you taking apart to see (removing o-rings) then placing it back in service, so I am going to assume that you are assuming. I can tell you that if your chain was changing pitch, it was becasue 1st, the wear between the pin and bushing, which means that htere was in FACT not sufficient lube or it would not wear. 2nd wear on the other friction surfaces which are between the roller and bushing, between the roller and sprocket seat, and to some extent plate to plate.
When you are at that point when your chain is growing, even though you feel other factors are causing your sprockets to wear, it is your chain doing the most damage and the lube that was placed in the chain to keep the wear down has diminished. It's all down hill from there with a ring chain. For that very fact alone is why I say standard chains can and will last longer than the ring chain because I can continue to effectively lubricate my chain while your ring chain is on a fast train to hell. And, in theory, if I lubricate, clean, and adjust properly, my chain will last almost indifinately. Of course it won't because of other factors, but ring chains that are used all the time will reach a point where proper maintenance is no longer possible becasue of pre-lube depletion.

I'm trying my darndest to wear out this old snake oil Sidewinder (non-o-ring)that I put in service Jan 2001, and just can't get it done. I have <1% growth from original pitch. Sprockets will only start to show wear after a chain has grown about 2-3%. I attribute my success with that chain to good maint. and the close tolerance of old Krause's stuff.

BTW....it seems to me that in this thread it was the o-ring advocates that used posts to change this chaps mind, not the other way around.
"Works for me" just don't get it with me. I want more meat than that.


Posted by: Senior KX Rider

Works for me....


Posted by: Jaybird

Could work for you AND be cost effective as well.
Of course I know, once that magic year mark is hit many feel that they have their full moneys worth......


Posted by: motometal

Jaybird, I am ashamed to say that I agree with, well, most of your last post!

To answer the question, how can I tell if there is still lube in the chain? Yes, I have taken one apart before. Besides that, when an o-ring chain gets dry (at least the ones I have had), it will start to kink or at least feel "dry" when you work the links. This seems to be a problem with connector links more often than other links.

Mechinical things wear even when lubed. This is a fact of life. But, maybe it isn't all wear. There could be some deformation involved.

I have tested chains at work, it has been a while ago, but I remember the pins being pretty hard...harder than a grade 8 bolt, for example...

Many times my sprockets last several seasons. And I don't "cheat" and run a steel rear sprocket. I attribute this to keeping a good chain on the bike, be it with maintenance, replacement, or whatever. Just like you said, the sprocket wear is very minimal until the chain starts wearing.


Posted by: Jaybird

motometal, I am certainly not meaning to cause any shame on anyone. (although I know you well enough to know you aren't Really ashamed )

First, thanks for being on my side of the steel sprocket thing. I too believe it cheats people into thinking that chains are cheap, as it takes longer for a steel sprocket to show deformation after a chain starts growing in pitch. I contend that becasue of the longevity of the steel sprocket, it will help to accelerate the growth of the chain. Just like putting a new Al sprocket under an old worn chain...that is the situation where a sprocket can and will help to wear the chain prematurely. The infamous "viscious circle".

I also have done many tests and have had some training in tribology and metalergy. In theory, mechanical parts will only wear when certain factors take place. The main one being that there is no longer a constant film on the contact surfaces of approx. .002" (grease) or .001" (oil). If all things are lab set, then this theory tends to hold up. To me, this is the big problem with lubricating roller chains with a wet film (grease or oil) since you must continue to replentish the film to maintain the film thickness. The very second that this thickness of protection is violated, the wear begins.
Dry film lubricants using solids as the load carrier tend to not need replentishing near as often. Also, some of the solids will have a natural attraction to the metal imperfections. The polar properties of these solids are what make them such a good lubricant. They also tend to carry shock load much better than petroleum films. Not to mention there is no comparison on the dirt attraction abilities of the two differnt types of lube, which may be solid lube's best attribute when considering it for our sport.

I also agree with you, to a certain extent, on the deformation thing. Exactly why you will see mfg's providing hardened pins and bushings. The harder the friction surfaces are, coupled with a good tensile strength of the plates, makes for chains with good integrity. Bent metal bushings are no match for machined ones, other than they do infact provide a channel to help thick, tacky, petroleum lubricants to find a home easier.
As a matter of fact, some lubes....(trust me there arent many being offered to our sport that do) will actually contain a polymer that will in fact treat the surfaces of the metals to help them carry load(harden) but I wont go there now because I know it will stir controversy. Besides...I need to get back and read the engine ice debate.....looks like some great stuff!


Posted by: motometal

Even the steel rear sprockets you can buy aren't near as hard as they could be. If they made one out of carburized alloy steel, or tool steel, it would probably last almost forever! The new stainless ones aren't very hard, and they weigh about the same as a cheapo carbon steel sprocket. These are more marketing fluff than good product.

by the way, metallurgy is spelt, well, metallurgy...



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