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DI 2-Stroke at dirtweek
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Posted by: Doc

I was a little disappointed that Rich and Eric Gorr didn't make it to dirtweek to check out my DI 2-stroke (2T) dirtbike. However, I was pleased at the interest that other people showed in the project. It is a little "prototype-ish" yet, but it starts without a battery and ran reasonably well, although the night poker run exposed to me some areas of my calibration that I want to improve. On the dyno it makes a bit more power than the stock (probably not jetted perfectly) carbureted configuration. The idle quality and low RPM power are substantially improved because the DI system allows the spatial control of fuel in the combustion chamber, reducing the cycle-to-cycle variability of the cylinder pressure at low engine speeds (all combustion events are strong, where on a carbureted 2T some combustion events are misfires or slow/weak burns). The fuel system components I used were all off-the-shelf parts, mostly parts used on our Evinrude e-tec outboards. In a previous post, Rich questioned cost, weight, complexity of a DI 2T. In comparison to 4-strokes (4T), I believe the cost of the fuel system components would be less than the additional cost of the cylinder head, valves, cam(s) cam drive, etc required for a 4T, and if the 4T is injected, then the 4T would certainly be more costly. The weight of my prototype 250 enduro bike is less than the 250 or 450 4T enduro bikes from the same manufacturer. WRT complexity, have you ever adjusted the valves on a shim and bucket 4T? The component arrangement on my DI would be simpler if I used an in-tank pump and regulator, like the ones used on 4T EFI bikes. Since the EPA set only a limit on emissions and not a technology mandate, I hope that a major manufacturer steps up and builds a DI 2-stroke enduro bike to meet the 2006 emissions standards.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Doc - I was TOTALLY BUMMED when I heard you might bring it to DW, and I wouldn't be there to see it. I figured if someone could leap that technological hurdle it would be you.

Excellent work :thumb: , and even though I really like four-strokes I also hope that a major manufacturer steps up and builds a DI 2-stroke enduro bike to meet the 2006 emissions standards. I still own a lot more two-strokes than four-strokes and would like to be given the choice to continue that ratio down the road.

Besides I'd give anything for a 2004 version DFI RZ350 or RG500

Posted by: cujet

Wow, I must have missed something. Could you please post a few pics or a link to this DI 2 stroke.

Thanks,

Chris

Posted by: Doc

Chris,

It was outside the big-top before the awards on Sat. night. I'll get the mud off of it tonight and get some pics up soon.

Posted by: SamLS

Could you explain the injectors,fuel pump, sensors and engine control module used and how you developed the map. What software did you use to program the engine controller. A friend of mine was a calibration engineer for Chrysler boy could he do a number on a turbocharged vehicle. Wish I could have got my hands on his programming module. Congrads on the bike.

Posted by: Creeper9

"Besides I'd give anything for a 2004 version DFI RZ350 or RG500 "

NOW we're talking. I'll second that vote for sure

Posted by: WWR

Or a fuel injected NSR...

I had a guy on an RZ500 down in Okinawa once tell ME that MY bike was quick!!

Posted by: DougRoost

I saw it and was in awe that someone at DW undertook that. I mentioned it to many people I saw after that. I only wish I'd seen it run at some point that week. The workmanship and location of the surge tank, electronics box, etc. were all nice. The throttle body was pretty huge and it took me a minute to figure out why/how you reworked the head, but it was pretty cool indeed.

Posted by: Danman

I was wondering what that was all about at DW. Unfortunitly I did not read the sign and walked right past it

I would have like to have seen it.

Posted by: Zenith

Any pics of it up yet? I'm dying to see it!

Posted by: KiwiBird

Doc - I looked your bike over but you weren't around to interrogate. It looked nice and I would have liked to talk to you more about it.

Posted by: bwalker

OK, wheres the pics? I am starting to salivate.

Posted by: Kav

Doc I saw your bike was was *VERY* impressed by it, you need to get some pices up before the guys kill you ;p

Posted by: bwalker

I am really excited about this project. By all means, show use some pics.

Posted by: cujet

Pics, Pics, Pics, Pics

Please

Posted by: Zenith

Maybe somebody who saw it at Dirtweek could break out the Crayons and give us a sketch?

Posted by: Jaybird

Picture a weird looking carb with no external bells and whistles.

I think the tech manuals on this issue (or maybe just listening to Doc for about 30 mins.

) will be much more enlightening than any pics.

From what I can gather from Doc, there is a slight giveaway of HP when using this apparatus. But as Doc explained, this would be if comparing a perfectly tuned carb with the DI, and there are very few carbs being run that are tuned properly...(I mentioned he hadn't been hanging around Rich too much...lol)

Anywho.....The need for changing jets with the weather goes away with Doc's design. Some would give an arm and a leg for such a thing.

Posted by: Doc

I'm waiting on an approval from higher-up at work before I can put the pics o the web. Sorry for the delay.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I'm sure it will be worth the wait Doc.

Posted by: biglou

Doc-Send them to me and I'll post them. biglou@dirtrider.net

Yeah, Rich, that thing was a freaking work of art! I can't believe I didn't get to see it before I did. It really was amazing. Thanks to Doc for setting up and giving a lesson. :thumb:

Posted by: Doc

I heard back today and I am not to put pics up. Sorry.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

It's OK Doc, we appreciate that you took the time to bring the bike to Cooperland and share it with us.

Posted by: Jeff Gilbert

I musta walked right past it and didn't see, probably I was drunk! :confused:

Posted by: 2smoke

Just keep working on it and developing it Doc.....I can wait for pictures.

Posted by: tjswigger

I'm new to the forums but intrigued by the talk of saving the beloved 2-stroke! If I go back in the thread on this topic is there any info on the design,the goals of the project and what changes to the engine were made and why?
Just out of curiosity?Is it possible to create some kind of catalytic converter to further clean the 2-stroke exhaust? I've never heard of any such device.There is something called an ICAT manufactured in Europe to... I guess create a much hotter spark to burn off more of the fuel charge.
I won't give up 2-strokes until they pry my cold dead fingers off the throttle.Hope the manufacturers step up and save them!

Posted by: demographic

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjswigger

Is it possible to create some kind of catalytic converter to further clean the 2-stroke exhaust? I've never heard of any such device.

I think that Aprilia has fitted a Catalytic converter to a two stroke scooter.

Posted by: Vic

I believe they are fitted to certain personal watercraft.

Posted by: Studboy

There was a snowmobile emmisions cleanup competition a few years back where one of the teams fitted a cat. to a snowmobile engine - they did VERY well. The emissions were reduced by ~90% on their machine over stock and there was no loss in power. The only question I have would be the longevity and cost of the cat. I'll bet that they get clogged fast on a 2-stroke.

Posted by: bwalker

Quote:

I think that Aprilia has fitted a Catalytic converter to a two stroke scooter.

Apprilia uses the Paigio(sp?) designed ditech motor. Its basicly a 50cc direct injection engine.

As for DI. The second generation Evinrude outboards are out of this world. We will be switching our fleet of 36 Mercury's over to them in the next couple of seasons. Not only are they light, but they are very quiet, better fuel economy than a four stroke and of course more performance.
Had the money been put into two cycles by the Japanese instead of their over valved cousins we might be riding a 250 that weighs 200lb, is emmisions compliant yet trouncesa foiru stroke in every way. Its too bad They do not have any vision as the technology is out there to really clean up two cycles. Things can even be done that are not electronic.

Posted by: bwalker

Quote:

I think that Aprilia has fitted a Catalytic converter to a two stroke scooter.

Apprilia uses the Paigio(sp?) designed ditech motor. Its basicly a 50cc direct injection engine.

As for DI. The second generation Evinrude outboards are out of this world. We will be switching our fleet of 36 Mercury's over to them in the next couple of seasons. Not only are they light, but they are very quiet, better fuel economy than a four stroke and of course more performance.
Had the money been put into two cycles by the Japanese instead of their over valved cousins we might be riding a 250 that weighs 200lb, is emmisions compliant(cureent strokersare not) yet trounces a four stroke in every way. Its too bad They do not have any vision as the technology is out there to really clean up two cycles. Things can even be done that are not electronic.

BTW what happened to REV!

Posted by: Doc

I'm glad you like the Evinrude E-TECs, a lot of clever people put in a lot of overtime to make those engines what they are. We have the big V6 coming out in a couple of months.

As far as cats on 2-strokes, they are fairly simple. The NOx is inherently low, so all that is needed is an oxidation cat, not a three-way with the O2 feed back.

The SAE Clean Snowmobile Challenge is held every year. For the past two and again this year it will be in the UP of Michigan. I go and work as a judge each year to recruit interns/engineers.

Dave

Posted by: bwalker

Doc, Do you work for Bombardier recreational products? Shoot me off a email to b.walker@voyager.net

Posted by: Doc

Yep, I do engine research at the BRP Product developmet center.

Posted by: GhostRider32

Doc,

I know you've probably been asked a million times but is the release date for the DI bike within the next year or so? Also, can you let us know what size the bike is? ........dreaming and salivating for a DI 2 stroke dirt bike.........

Posted by: Doc

I really can't talk about the bike anymore.

I have heard that GasGas is working with Magneti-Marelli on a DI bike.

I'll let you know if I see anything DI at Intermot.

Doc

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Hey Doc - I tried to read the two JSAE papers you authored with the guys from BRP. They were incredibly interesting, but I think the part of my brain that holds my phone number and the directions to work exploded as a result. Would you mind calling my boss and telling him I won't be at work for a few days?

Keep up the great work.

Posted by: DougRoost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

I really can't talk about the bike anymore.

I have heard that GasGas is working with Magneti-Marelli on a DI bike.

I'll let you know if I see anything DI at Intermot.

Doc

So I guess that means we shouldn't expect to yours again at DW this year?

Posted by: LJW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

Hey Doc - I tried to read the two JSAE papers you authored with the guys from BRP.

Rich,
Care to pass on the names and numbers of these papers?

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJW

Rich,
Care to pass on the names and numbers of these papers?

Sure. I'll grab the info and post it.

Posted by: Mully

Just a bump so I know when you post it Rich.

Mully

Posted by: Doc

The papers are (I can provide copies of these or you can get them at SAE.org):

"Optimization of the E-TEC Combustion System for Direct-Injected Two-Stroke Engines Toward 3-Star Emissions"

"A Method to Determine Total PM Emissions from Marine Outboard Engines"

"Modeling of Scavenging and Plugging in a Twin-Cylinder Two-Stroke Engine using CFD"

"Modeling of Air-Fuel Mixing in a Two-Stroke Direct Injection Engine"

This year we will be publishing (available September 27):

"Predicting and Optimizing Two-Stroke Engine Performance Using Multidimensional CFD"

"FC-W An Oil Standard for Four-Stroke Cycle Engines"

"The Effect of Fuel Spray Momentum on Performance and Emissions of Direct-Injected Two-Stroke Engines"

"Carbon Monoxide Emissions from Marine Outboard Engines"

"Development of Multi-Fuel Spark Ignition Engine"

Cheers,
Doc

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Thanks Doc.

Posted by: LJW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

The papers are (I can provide copies of these or you can get them at SAE.org):

"Optimization of the E-TEC Combustion System for Direct-Injected Two-Stroke Engines Toward 3-Star Emissions"

"A Method to Determine Total PM Emissions from Marine Outboard Engines"

"Modeling of Scavenging and Plugging in a Twin-Cylinder Two-Stroke Engine using CFD"

"Modeling of Air-Fuel Mixing in a Two-Stroke Direct Injection Engine"

Cheers,
Doc

Thanks Doc,

It's hard to find new material on Two-Strokes these days!
Do you have the titles above in an electronic format ?
Can you recommend any other publications that describe operation of the E-TEC system ? (Service Manuals, SAE, etc.)

LJW
wiechman@inwave.com

Posted by: Kav

Doc we be able to see the bike at DW again this year?

Posted by: Doc

Nope, I gotta miss DW

, gonna be working at ROTAX that week. I wish the World Supermoto race in Austria had not been cancelled, I wanna see one of those.

Doc

Posted by: demographic

I know that it's not bikes but Yamaha seems to be putting some money into direct injection two stroke outboard engines CLICK HERE to read about it.

I used a scientific search engine which seems to throw up a few good results, CLICK HERE to see what "direct injection two stroke" gave as far as results.

Posted by: txkawboy

Doc,
Have u ever thot about contacting Horst Leitner or Evyind Boyesen? At least u can say that "u tried"...I have always felt that 2T have an enormous future with their high power+simplicity...Europe makes great usage of them in their Skoda's, etc...

Posted by: JTT

I'm trying to get my head around this DI system...and am admittedly a little slow on the uptake sometimes

How does the lower end get lubed? It seems that the descriptions I have seen of DI systems show the fuel being injected direct into the combustion chamber on the compression stroke and that the only thing flowing through the bottom end is air?? Also, where does the oil get injected? The few very basic schematics I've seen show it being injected separately from the fuel it would seem.

Posted by: 2strok4fun

How is the fuel map manipulated on the DI?

I assume there isnt a O2 that would function well enough for that assuming charge short circuiting.

How would the fuel map be "jettable" for changing air densities? or motor/ pipe changes?

Posted by: Studboy

You should take a look at some of the new SDI snowmobile engines...the weight gain is very small and the performance is great. I actually prefer a good EFI system on a snowmobile vs. a carb because of the huge air density changes that are seen. The manufacturers were also striving to meet the 2006 EPA standards and all of the new SDI engines do.

Posted by: Doc

On crank case scavenged DI 2T engines, the oil is injected seperate from the fuel, before or directly into the crank case.

Baro compensation is handled by a compensation map and the ECU uses a baro sensor.

True, SDI snow machines meet the 2006 EPA rule for snow machines, but the 2006 EPA rule for bikes is much more strengent,~ by a factor of 10.

Doc

Posted by: 2strok4fun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

Baro compensation is handled by a compensation map and the ECU uses a baro sensor.

So any porting or pipe that changes the air moving thru the engine will not be read as barometric changes and not be compensated for? Can the compensation map be altered by external methods? laptop computer or programmer of sorts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

True, SDI snow machines meet the 2006 EPA rule for snow machines, but the 2006 EPA rule for bikes is much more strengent,~ by a factor of 10.

Doc

What about watercraft?

Posted by: dkinaev

I'm pretty sure that most answers are found in a typical 4 stroke car. (that is CPU, injection etc.) lubrication though would require maybe ...oil pan + oil squirters??? ? ..but this is good! I always wondered why arent all motorbikes DI ??? Just put a smaller car engine in a frame and there!!

Why did it take companies all of these years to squash an injector in instead of a carby when my turbo Nissan Silvia has been using this technology since 88? Is it really the weight difference?

Another question. Once in a while (rarely) do injectors get clogged in cars even high performance ones. I imagine injectors are going to be the next "plugs" ...the next thing to carry spare around. It will be like "..got a spare injector mate? --yeah sure.. you owe me one!" Also how tunalble will these CPU's be. Most car companies DO NOT want people to screw with their CPUs. I know that for example for my engine, (ca18det) I need to get the cpu, take out a flash chip, remap it while on the dyno then stick it in.) Sure there are aftermarket "high performance chips" for like 1000 AUD! When the actual price of the chips in the the cents. Will these DI manufacturers be heading the same way with motorbikes that are now "untunable" by the average person? Will putting a new pipe need a trip to a shop with a dyno?

??

-regards
-Dmitri.

Posted by: marcusgunby

Yes chips will be hard to tune yourself -it wont be impossible but it will be harder than changing jets, however with closed loop efi i hope it will be able to cope with small variations.

Posted by: 2strok4fun

in keeping the discussion with direct injection 2-strokes or any FI 2-stroke for that matter, I believe the issue of closed loop, using exhaust sniffers to regulate the air / fuel ratio. A O2 sensor cant be used on a 2 stroke due to the short circuiting of air out the ex-port, this would have to throw off a O2 sensor reguardless of when the fuel was injected.

Is it possible to use a CO sensor to help regulate A/F? Not sure how charge short circuit will effect carbon monoxide.

Posted by: Studboy

A lot of snowmobiles have exhaust pipe temperature sensors, but I don't think that it has to do with the EFI, more with the ignition timing.

Posted by: DougRoost

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkinaev

Why did it take companies all of these years to squash an injector in instead of a carby when my turbo Nissan Silvia has been using this technology since 88? Is it really the weight difference?
-Dmitri.

No, mechanical injection has been around racing engines since at least the 1960's and most likely before that. It was the sensors and portable, lightweight computing power that were needed to make it efficient. But carburetors have been a good "mechanical fuzzy logic" device that until those technologies evolved, did a good job of adjusting for a range of different loads, atmospheric conditions, etc. for a very low price. In fact, it's still hard to beat a carb on a racing engine if WOT is all you care about...part throttle and everyday driveability is where EFI really excels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkinaev

Also how tunalble will these CPU's be. Most car companies DO NOT want people to screw with their CPUs. I know that for example for my engine, (ca18det) I need to get the cpu, take out a flash chip, remap it while on the dyno then stick it in.) Sure there are aftermarket "high performance chips" for like 1000 AUD! When the actual price of the chips in the the cents. Will these DI manufacturers be heading the same way with motorbikes that are now "untunable" by the average person? Will putting a new pipe need a trip to a shop with a dyno?

??

-regards
-Dmitri.

So you're saying that all the R&D that goes into reverse engineering these chips to get more performance out of them while maintaining durability has no value -- that only the actual cost of the silicon has value? That's like arguing that software for computers is only worth the price of the CD it's written on, when in fact it's the CD medium that is useless without all those good bits on it. We call that Intellectual Property and it's always copyrighted and in many cases patented.

Note also that in many cases the manufacturers would like to tune for more HP. But they are also heavily controlled and possibly sued by their respective governments if they don't meet things like MPG targets (CAFE here in the US), emissions, noise levels, etc. Then there's the matter of tuning for octane (i.e. - do they risk limiting their market by mandating premium instead of 87)? So they have to live in a world of compromises, as opposed to an individual application that may be willing to sacrifice one or more of those variables to optimize another.

Posted by: acanz

Could the DI unit replace a carb on an orignially carburated engine? Would the emissions be cleaner or is the point to be more effiecent with the size of fuel charge? Im really confused...

Posted by: DougRoost

That's what this bike was, a retrofitted KTM 2 stroke "development mule." Was sure impressive to see 2 DirtWeeks ago and would have loved to see it in action. I believe their goal was to use it as a POC (proof of concept), applying what we now know they were doing on outboard motors to dirt bikes. Maybe Doc was able to convince his company to even shop it to a dirt bike company or 2.

An aftermarket retrofit could be done, but in the end I have to believe that the expense would not merit it vs. upgrading to a new bike and getting an integrated, optimized, and tuned package. Ideally I'd think you'd want chassis and suspension tuned to match the engine, just as modern racing 4 stroke dirt bikes share chassis with their 2 stroke brethren but have very different suspension tuning (and sometimes even components) to match the power output of the different engines.

Posted by: bikepilot

Maybe this work could also result in a full production version of somehting like a V-Due 500 or a Roher (sp?) RV500???

Posted by: bedell99

Hey bike pilot. This is a continuation of Rich's statement. The technology is there, but the real question is if the manufactures are willling to invest in it???

http://images.wardsauto.com/files/1004/WEU-April04b.pdf#search='Bombardier%202%20stroke'

Erik

Posted by: viking20

My sons buddy just got an Aprilla Ditec scooter.
It idles at such a low speed compared to other 50 cc scooters .It runs very clean up through the rev ´s , and easily gets double the mileage of carburetted scooters !
Will someone build a dirtbike with this system , please !!?

Posted by: hellbertos

Haven't logged in for a while, but it is great to see that this particular thread is still alive!! I really love 2T and, as of late, I've become the lone hold out for 2Ts in my crew and have been starting to feel the end drawing nearer.

I was at Hangtown a couple weks ago and after watching Bubba looking like he was down on power (I know he was sick also, but those big 4strokers seemed to really have an advantage on the up hills) finally conceeded to my buddies that maybe I am riding a dinosaur (not just my 87 cr, but even my 2002 yz).

I would be out of my head if 2's came back full force. While the BIG4 are at it, they can build a 450 DI 2T that is gonna wax all these bellowing beasts out there now... ok, make it a 400 and give 'em a chance.

Been holding out on buying a new bike, but I would buy a new DI 2T in a heart beat if it performed and was green stiker approved.

Thanks Doc and everyone else who is at work on this technology! You are appreciated by the no-name masses who just want to ride 2strokes!!!

Posted by: bwalker

Whats going on with this project?

Posted by: Kav

I'd love to know too.

Posted by: KnobShredder

I think it's pretty obvious this project is going nowhere. The only people I can see at this point who could make a DI 2stroke dirtbike work is Bombardier. They own the rights to the e-tec technology that is wowing the outboard engine industry. power, emissions, noise, consumption, all equal to or superior to the 4stroke. and less expensive. and all without aid of expansion chambers. And get this - their outboards have magneto's, and can be pull started! previously you had to have large batteries to maintain the starting and running needs on the high tech DI motors. This magneto technology can be translated into kick start on dirtbikes! i know it sounds like re-inventing the wheel, but i'll take it...

Posted by: DougRoost

Any company can license its patents to others. Just one example in dirt bikes is the counter rotating shafts in 4 strokes that cancel out vibrations....all the manufacturers just pay Mitsubishi a royalty when they employ it.

Posted by: JustinC

there is a thread in this forum about the honda exp-2. why did honda put so much research and development into this bike and then not do anything with it? by the sounds of things they were on to something with two stroke technology. the exp-2 was light weight, clean burning, had good ridabilty, and was easy to maintain.

Posted by: BMWPower

Any new info on the DI bike?

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I'll find out if Doc has anything he can share without stepping over any proprietary info lines. Doc works for a big corporation so he has lots of guidelines he has to follow when giving out this type of info, even if it is his own work.

Posted by: hellbertos

I, for one but think I speak for many, am VERY interested on this topic. Having ridden many of the new 4Ts, I really don't care for them. I see their potential esp. w/ the AMA displacement rules, but I'm past my prime so I'm just out there for fun... and I find that I have much more fun on a 2T... maybe its what I am used to as well...

None the less, I'd appreciate any further info on this; especially in light of the post that showed the fuel injection system that is being used in Asia and targeted for possible use (I know, its a hunch, but still) on 07 CRF250X. Thanks again

Posted by: Doc

Sorry guys, but I really can't talk about it.

Doc

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Doc - We appreciate all the info you have been able to share. I figure as long as guys like you are out there we still have some hope of having choices in what we buy.

Posted by: 2strok4fun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

Sorry guys, but I really can't talk about it.

Doc

Well, maybe it means that there IS somthing down the pike for us

A nice light woods weapon that can go 80 miles on a mx size tank.

Posted by: luvtolean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

Sorry guys, but I really can't talk about it.

Doc

Doc if you have the time, I'd love to read any of those papers you listed earlier.

luvtolean@yahoo.com

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

The paper is available directly from the SAE .

Document Number: 2003-32-0007

Title: Optimization of the E-Tectm Combustion System for Direct-Injected, Two-Stroke Engines Toward 3-Star Emissions

For those who are interested here are some of Doc's other published SAE papers:

2004-32-0025 - Fc-WSr: An Oil Standard for Four-Stroke Cycle Outboard Engines

2004-32-0092 - Life Assessment of Pm, Gaseous Emissions, and Oil Usage in Modern Marine Outboard Engines

2001-01-0195 - Effects of Multiple Injections and Flexible Control of Boost and Egr on Emissions and Fuel Consumption of a Heavy-Duty Diesel Engine

2000-01-1962 - Optimization of Heavy-Duty Diesel Engine Operating Parameters Using a Response Surface Method

1999-01-0840 - The Influence of Boost Pressure on Emissions and Fuel Consumption of a Heavy-Duty, Single-Cylinder D.I. Diesel Engine

.... and somehow he even finds time to RIDE, and he's good at that too

Posted by: Avena Quaker

two years and what happened with the DI bike ?

Posted by: BMWPower

Ya, what did happen to it?

Posted by: JasonJ

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. I did not have time to read the entire thread. I was sooo into the RD and RZ bikes and when I read about this bike http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbimota/bimota500.html
years ago, I knew it would not be long untill I would have a 2 stroke GP street bike! I figured within 5 years I would have a 2 stroke car. I did not know why it took soooo long to make 2 storke motors run "right". Well, I do have a 2 stroke street bike, a 73 RD 250. The 2 stroke car, well, not so much. Im glad to see some one doing what needed to be done a long time ago.
As I recall the big issue with the Bi mota was getting the injectors to fire fast enough. I think with a larger displacement motor and perhaps multiple injectors the issue would be less of an issue.

Posted by: kdxtodd

Dont worry man, im working on that 2-stroke car as we speak, i just havent built it yet. stay tuned.

Posted by: hellbertos

I saw this at MXA.com (and posted elsewhere):

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/M...040E8D420A0172B

Great to see that the Yamaha test riders and engineers are still putting some effort intot he YZs... 125s no less. I keep crossign my fingers they'll figure out the emissions things and gives us a green sticker 2T!

Posted by: likelite

i agree!that is why i own a yz.ktm keeps the development going on 2t`s also.guess i will have to get one of them also.darn another new bike.

Posted by: MikeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

Besides I'd give anything for a 2004 version DFI RZ350 or RG500

Ahh, The Holy Grail...

Posted by: hellbertos

I hadn't even thought of how cool it would be to have a legal RG. Seems like only yesterday seeing those trick 2T road racers at Laguna Seca...

Keep the faith!!

Posted by: Rhein

Doc,

I FRIGGIN LOVE YOU AND BRP! I am going to be buying the Sea Doo 3D DI this summer just because it is a bad ass design, is a DI 2T and BRP made. If BRP keeps up the good work, they earned my business for life. I am an avid 2T fan and am very disheartened that the 2T is being left in the dust by certain manufacturers. I believe 2Ts can and will be saved thanks to DI.

I wish you could give a few more details though! I don't want this to be a pipe dream, please make it possible! Please keep it up, you guys could make a killing off this if you collaborated with KTM who seems to still care about 2t (think 144SX).

Please Doc, tell me this isn't project is not dead?

I must add I think both 4T and 2T technology is amazing. I respect and appreciate both. I give credit where credit is due, 4ts have come a long way since I have owned them. Still that is no excuse to not have the freedom to choose!

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

I'll see if I can get in touch with Doc and find out if it's possible to give us any updates.

Posted by: Rhein

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

I'll see if I can get in touch with Doc and find out if it's possible to give us any updates.

Wow Rich, your a good guy! Thanks sir!

Posted by: Doc

I actually left BRP about a year ago. It is still too early to spill my guts about the stuff I did at BRP. Unfortunately, the coolest thing we did was too scary for the conservative marketing guys.

The automotive guys are working on 2000+ psi gasoline direct injectors. These would make DI 2-strokes a much simpler exercise because the spray will be much less sensitive to in-cylinder conditions, but even with ~500psi it is possible to be very clean, efficient, powerful, and 2-strokes are inherently quieter and lower maintenance.

Cheers,
Doc

Posted by: Rich Rohrich

Thanks for stopping in Doc and updating everyone.
I wasn't sure what was OK to say out here regarding you and your current work.

Posted by: Rhein

Doc,

Thanks for stopping in and giving us an update. Hopefully your departure from BRP was for the best for you. Can you give us your opinion on that machine? Do you think it is feasible? What is your opinion on the future of the 2t?

My car is a VW Passat with their FSI direct injection turbo engine. I am an enthusiast so I am kind of informed about the high pressure DI system this runs on. I can't imagine though it being put on a bike. There are two pumps and i am sure they draw a lot of current? Oh well, I don't know.

Posted by: Doc

I think is is very feasible to put common rail on a bike. I would use a single piston pump that runs a roller on a lobe on the crankshaft and just gravity feed that pump from the tank.

Posted by: genetuck

3 December 2007

KYMCO KDI 100 SCOOTER ACHIEVES BEST TAIWAN GREEN MOTORCYCLE RANKING

TThe Kymco KDI X-Mode 100 scooter utilising Orbital Direct Injection combustion process has been judged by the Taiwan Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as the best motorcycle in their green motorcycle ranking.

The KDI X-Mode 100 was first launched in low volume production in December 2004; the direct injection system and ECU being supplied by Synerject, the 50:50 Joint Venture Partnership between Orbital and Siemens VDO.

As a part of vehicle certification, the Taiwan EPA audited 85 motorcycles. From these vehicles, the top 14 were selected to then determine the green motorcycle rating by ranking the vehicle HC+NOx emissions, the CO emissions and the fuel economy capability, then summating these three categories.

The Kymco KDI X-Mode 100 was a clear overall winner, with the lowest CO emissions of the group, and a very close 2nd best within the group for both fuel efficiency (with 50.8 km/litre) and HC+NOx emissions (0.7 gm/km).

Of the 14 vehicles, the Kymco KDI X-Mode 100 was the only 2 stroke engine product, competing against both carburetted and Port Fuel Injected (PFI) 4 stroke engines ranging between 50 and 125 cc displacement, confirming that direct injected 2 strokes can compete directly with 4 stroke engines for emission control and fuel economy.

In addition, according to the Kymco Taiwanese web site, the KDI X-Mode 100 out accelerates competitor 4 stroke product, both in straight line performance, and in particular on hill climbing and steep gradients.

Posted by: hellbertos

WOW!! That is awesome!!! I hope Yamaha, KTM and TM take a look at what that thing has going!! I wonder if the technology could be adapted to an MXer and retain solid performance.

Green sticker 2T's would sell out here in CA. NO QUESTION!!

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DI 2-Stroke at dirtweek

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