Does the AMA really check???

bedell99

Subscriber
Joined
May 3, 2000
Messages
788
Likes
0
#1
Has anyone actually wondered how they get so much power out those factory engines? I was watching the glen helen race on tv this weekend and seeing those 125's pull up that huge hill was simply amazing. So I started thinking to my self. Do they use special gas, is there porting that much different, does that extra 2 oz. they knocked off by using titanium make them go so much faster? I'm a firm believer that the reason why they don't show any internals to mags when they test those bikes is I think they would come up short a couple of millimeters if someone measured the bore of there bike. I just got my engine bored and ported to 144cc and can honestly tell you that no matter how fast you think your legal 125 is, there is no way you will beat me a drag race. (Maybe in the corners, but not in a straight line) I truely think that "most" of the factory teams are cheating. I know this is a bold statement, but till the the AMA tells me otherwise and starts checking cylinders that is the only way those 125's will be competitive in the pro class. I'm not saying they are running 167's, but I really think that 134's and 144's are in most of there bikes. I know that a 134cc engine is legal in the "amatuer" ranks but not in the pro class. Just some food for thought.

Erik

99 kx 144
 

dirt bike dave

Sponsoring Member
Joined
May 3, 2000
Messages
5,349
Likes
3
#2
I would be VERY surprised if the factories are running illegal displacement at the nationals.  It is so easy to pull a 2 stroke apart, and they would get tons of negative publicity and have to forfeit points if they got caught.

So your 144cc is about 15% bigger and maybe makes 10% more power than a 'regular' 125.  You don't think that the factory mechanics can coax at least that much power out of their bikes?  

I think you are really underestimating the factories and the top tuners.  Remember, their engines only have to survive one race at a time, so they can build them to the extremes.  
 

bedell99

Subscriber
Joined
May 3, 2000
Messages
788
Likes
0
#3
All I have to say is when was the last time you had access to the pits and "watched" as they ripped down an engine. Have you ever seen an AMA offical with a caliper in one hand and cylinder in the other and as for the tuners of factory teams are you saying they are "so" much better than a guy like Eric Gorr. There is to much money on the line for an AMA offical to go checking each of the bikes, I really believe they just turn the other cheek, but then again I'm a just a regular guy with an opinion.

Erik

99 kx 144
 

JG

Super Power AssClown
Joined
Aug 17, 1999
Messages
23
Likes
0
#4
with the porting, compression, and fuel those bikes are using it wouldn't suprise me if the horse power was in the low 40 range...almost a stock 250<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Messages
693
Likes
0
#5
Yup...40hp and 0 ft/lbs of torque!  A few years back at Glen Helen (when they still ran the racers up the really steep part of Mt. St. Helen), some 125 riders had to try twice to make it up it.  And still, watching this year's Glen Helen race, the 125's couldn't start out on a hill.  

------------------
Kevin  #28K
'99 XR600R
Its better to be a racer for a moment than a spectator for life.


<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 

Ol'89r

Super Power AssClown
Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Messages
6,913
Likes
26
#6
The first three finishers of each class are torn down and checked at a national.&nbsp;&nbsp;(Or at least they used to be.)&nbsp;&nbsp;The factorys use many little tricks in their engines but none that are illegal. The first thing the AMA checks is the bore and stroke.
"Old age and treachery, sumthin, sumthin, can't remember the rest."
Ol'89r
 

bedell99

Subscriber
Joined
May 3, 2000
Messages
788
Likes
0
#7
I really don't care how your good your porting, how high your compression and special your race gas is. There is absolutly no way you can coax out nearly 40 horsepower out of a 125cc motor. Think about what you guyz are saying. The main reason why people use race gas in a single with high compression is to stop detonation. Yes race gas does have special properties to maybe at most give you an extra pony, but that's it and if they are using special gas with additives thats not allowed under AMA rules wouldn't that be cheating. I would love to hear from an professional engine tuner on how exactly you can pump out nearly 40 horse power out of 125, because I know what his/hers answer would be. I'm going to the southwick national in 2 weeks and I'm going to ask an AMA offical the rules of how bikes are checked and when they are checked and how often. Like most of the things that fans want to know from the AMA, I will pobably just be ignored.

Erik

99 kx 144
 

JG

Super Power AssClown
Joined
Aug 17, 1999
Messages
23
Likes
0
#8
now that I think about it, 40 may be just a little high
. I would say that they're pushing very close to it though<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 
Joined
Aug 24, 1999
Messages
49
Likes
0
#9
bedell99,
here is an idea for ya.

pony up the bucks to the AMA and file a protest against Talon Vollands bike.&nbsp;&nbsp;tell them you want the fuel checked and the displacement checked.
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Joined
Nov 5, 1999
Messages
4,368
Likes
34
#10
Erik,

The Pros are checked in the same way as the riders are on the AMA amateur level.
ANYTIME someone( has to be a rider entered in that class that day)&nbsp;&nbsp;officially protests and puts the money up.
It does happen,and they also tear down a few top finishes randomly thru the season.Yes, I have seen them( Duke,etc) with calipers,but the rider or mechanic is required to tear down the bike.
There is NO overbore limit allowed in Pro competition..not even the usual .080 allowed in amateur.
A 125cc bike cannot be anything over 125cc.period.

That said;
I feel there a few 125 big bores out there and mostly not protested with a "gentlemans agreement" between the riders.I mean if you protest someone isnt someone else going to protest you?

However, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the factories are running this way..
Their riders are very likely to finish up front and get tore down at random anyway.Also much more likely to be protested.

Also keep in mind there still is a "claiming rule" on parts and bike.
If you are entered and feel a guy has something way beyond the limits post the cash and the bike or parts are yours.
I'm surprised we dont see more of that happening.

Amateur:
Also I'm not sure that a 134cc bike is legal in AMA 125cc Amateur racing..it really depends on the original OEM size of the bore and stroke.( Thats different for every manufactuer)
You are allowed .080 over OEM bore&nbsp;&nbsp;in 125 class.On some bikes that would be a 135cc ? on some it would be a 129cc ? depends on the bore verses stroke configuration.( long rod or short rod style motor)

The big bore 125's&nbsp;&nbsp;are popular in the VET classes for sure.

AJ Waggoner
AMA Congressman
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Joined
Nov 5, 1999
Messages
4,368
Likes
34
#11
Sunruh! lol good idea!

but you have to be entered in that class to file the official protest or a claiming rule.

I have thought of doing it myself in the 250cc class just to become
"in-famous" for a day or week.

Maybe at red bud or troy this year.
hmm How would it be to have Tortellis bike for a week?
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,564
Likes
379
Location
Chicago
#12
Do any of you guys remember when someone paid the claiming fee and bought a Honda Works bike? It was a big deal and they tore it completely down in Cycle or Cycle World.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think the rider who claimed the bike was eventually found in the trunk of a Civic, but that's unconfirmed
 
Joined
Aug 24, 1999
Messages
49
Likes
0
#13
AJ,
merely details man, merely details.

get a no-name rider (say 20th place or so) to do it FOR you.
give him the cash for the protest and have them do it.

bingo, valid protest and then all the bovine feces hits the rotating Nitrogen/Oxygen/Carbon Dioxide mixture displacer.
 

bedell99

Subscriber
Joined
May 3, 2000
Messages
788
Likes
0
#14
This is why I love this site so much. I get such great responses. How much money do you think I have to put up to claim a bike and have it ripped down. If it is reasonable, why not do it. I might just have a factory bike in my garage for a couple of day's. About the 134cc bike, you are absolutly right, the AMA rule allows a bikes cylinder to be bores at .080 over. My bike has 54mm bore, which if bored 2mm over would give it a 134cc engine. I never thought about if the bike came with a smaller bore and longer stroke, but getting back to the factory bikes. How do they make such unbelievable power from a "legal" 125cc engine. Please don't respond that the use race gas or they up the compression. There has to be a trick maybe in the porting or exhaust valves. Next topic I wouldn't mind discussing is why don't they mimic the setting's they use in the race bike, tone it down so the cylinder can use pump gas and not detonate and throw it into nect years stock bike.

Erik

99 kx 144
 
Joined
May 20, 2000
Messages
12
Likes
0
#15
You can't put up the money to protest a bike unless you are racing. It would be nice if you could just enter the 250 class for the day. First you have to qaulify. The AMA puts the top few bikes in an impound area immediately following the race. I have seen it at every Southwick National I have attended. I would assume there is a certain amount of time allowed for the protest as the bikes don't sit there very long. Also you don't claim the bike for a few days, the teardown would be done immediately so they could make a decision whether or not the bike is legal. I am going to Southwick with a friend who qaulifies every year. I get a pit pass as a mechanic, I will ask around or get a copy of the rule and post it here after the race. I have never seen em tear one down but I'm sure it does happen.

------------------
BruceKLX
Thumpin on em