give a teacher a raise.

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ellandoh

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no teacher ive ever seen needs a 40,000$ raise over their current union salary+retirement
 

Patman

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FruDaddy

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The good teachers (both of them) do it for the love and don't complain about their paychecks. Those are the ones that deserve a raise. Most of them are basically drones regurgitating the pre-written curriculum that will hopefully prepare the students to pass the test that gets the school enough funding to squeek through another year of sub-par education. Fortunately my teen aged kids are smart enough to absorb what they need to from the bureaucracy and ask their parents about the thing that just don't sound right.

I used to think that teachers were underpaid, now I know that the ones worth the extra pay usually teach at private schools where they make the extra money that they deserve. "No child left behind" has successfully broken the rest. Evidence that they aren't doing their jobs can be found on every forum on the internet, including this one.
 

robwbright

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Apr 8, 2005
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http://blog.mises.org/5041/a-fair-wage/

Excerpt:

The next time you hear teachers claim that they need a fair wage, tell them to drop the union banners and open education to the free market; the one market where everyone earns their fair wage.

Are public teacher salaries unfair? Certainly. They are unfair to the taxpayer who is forced to pay the tax bill that supports the premium wage of public school teachers. In a free labor market a teacher’s real salary can only increase with the marginal value product of employees in the next best alternate employment. In the quasi-monopoly that currently exists, teachers have realized salary increases that are not tied to the labor market; the salary increases are simply the result of political pressure.
 

robwbright

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http://mises.org/daily/2626

Summary: Lots of people can be primary school teachers. teachers. Not very many people can be pro athletes.

Excerpts:

Why do professional athletes make so much more money than, say, professional teachers? Do people really value sports more than they value education?

Why are diamonds so expensive and water so cheap, when water is absolutely essential to the life of every human, and diamonds are basically luxuries that every person is capable of living very well without?

The answer is scarcity.

When we talk about the value of athletes versus the value of teachers, we are talking about particular choices with limited scope. We don't have to make the choice between all athletes or all teachers. We are not selecting the profession of sports to the exclusion of the profession of education. The real choice made in every day life is how much the employer values what this particular teacher offers, and how much the team values what that particular athlete offers.

Top professional athletes regularly sign multi-million dollar contracts, with signing bonuses and lucrative product promotion deals.

When some item is widely available in abundance, such as water in most inhabited areas, the next unit acquired will be relatively inexpensive, the value applied to it by users will be low. If you don't take one gallon now, there will always be more where that came from. If something is scarce, diamonds for instance, buyers will bid the price up because many people want the few gems available. The value to the chooser of the next available unit is the only thing that matters in decision making. The more readily available the supply, the lower the price will be. The higher the demand, the more people who want the item, the higher the price will be. The price eventually agreed upon is a balance of both forces, supply and demand.

There are some very good teachers, but teaching in a typical classroom is not generally a route to superstardom. There are relatively limited classroom positions in any geographic area, and usually plenty of competent and capable people willing to fill the spots.

Aspiring athletes get to be superstars because they have some type of rare talent. Top athletes can do things that mere mortals can't. Most have paid a heavy personal cost to get there. Many more try, but don't even come close. Only a tiny fraction actually make it to the big time. The level of ability and dedication it takes to be a superstar is, indeed, very rare. That rarity makes athletes the diamonds in the realm of professional endeavors. They have millions of adoring fans willing to pay money to see them. The supply is extremely low and the demand is extremely high. They command a high price for the same reason that diamonds are expensive.

There are also different levels in teaching. While some are not called "teachers," they still need to be included for comparison. Some are called professors, consultants, professional trainers, public speakers, writers, etc. The level of pay for any of them depends on the perceived value of the skill each individual exhibits in relation to the skills of those that would replace him or her.

Hence, a renowned consultant or professor with a significant reputation, someone who is a popular writer or has taught many thousands of people, may actually make millions of dollars. He or she is just as much a teacher, and, though called by a different name, can be thought of as a superstar of teaching.

In the case of both athlete and teacher, the rarity of the skill and the number of people who benefit from the individual determines the level of pay. Scarcity in relation to the level of demand determines value for all things.
 

Wolf

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Jul 31, 2000
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I don't have the time to read all this cut an paste stuff, and frankly I probably should refrain from participating in this thread, but, being married to a teacher (a good teacher) and having to pay for all the continued education required, and seeing the insane amount of hours put in, and seeing the 90 % of idiots who call themselves parents, and seeing the effing crappy paycheck, I will say this...apparently my view of teachers, their ambitions and passion, and their pay/reward is entirely different from most of yours. Yes there are bums running around as teachers....probably about as many as in the freaking private sector...maybe even in your office/workplace.
 

RoadDawg

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Jul 10, 2009
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Lets see, give a person who works 6 months a year a raise when they themselves can barely read.... I THINK NOT!

$40,000 GRAND for 6 months work...... They don't need a raise.. Not from what I've seen from our liberal State & National Education Associations..
 

Papakeith

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Aug 31, 2000
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I don't wanna close this one yet even though it probably tickles the "lock it up" rules. Keep on keeping it civil m'kay
 

RoadDawg

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I like the Governor from New Jersey, I also like the Governor from Arizona. Too bad we couldn't have them on the ticket to defeat Osama Obama and his socialist government.

Of course, I think even John McCain and Sarah (I have no idea what I'm talking about) Palin could win the next Presidential election.
 

Wolf

doooode
Jul 31, 2000
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Get rid of tenure - agreed
Performance based pay - agreed, but how to you measure it?
Get rid of the Unions - agreed again

Stereo type all teachers and state that they work 6 months of the year is a dumb ass statement and I ask for you to pm me so I can explain a few things to you.

One more....fire most of the parents who think school is a day care service...
 

Uchytil

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My daughter is a teacher. She has her Masters from Lesley and grad work was done a BU. I paid for a good chunk so I think she should get a raise and give the extra cash to me. Since her husband is a lawyer I don't think she cares for a raise (or giving it to me). She a smart cookie and the kids like her. :cool:
 

RoadDawg

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Not all teachers are bad, I know some very good teachers, But in PA they are required to work 184 days per year. Their health coverage is FULLY PAID, They work Monday thru Friday, weekends off, holidays off and let me tell you $40,000 is not an average salary for any teacher in PA. Their retirement systems are causing the Commonwealth of Penna. and almost every other State to go broke and they too refuse to make an appropriate contribution.

I personally know several teachers that have trouble spelling their names and counting their toes (So do I, but I'm not a teacher), so don't give me the "they work so hard crapola."

They force feed our children, liberal socialist propaganda that they learn in College from liberal socialist propagandists..

School isn't a daycare and they should have corporal punishment, school prayer and be required to Pledge Allegiance to our Flag EVERYDAY, but they don't because that's not what our "teachers" have been taught. As it may interfere with some jerkoffs civil liberties.

Let me tell you, teachers have a very good gig and are screwing you and I out of our tax dollars while enjoying it. I know a "teacher" who leaves 2 days after school is out every year and goes directly to her beach house and returns about 1 week before school begins. She owns 2 house's... 1 Corvette and God only knows what else. She is a poor quality teacher as even other teacher's will tell you. So don't tell me that a great deal are not in it for the money!

I get tired of hearing about how bad the "teachers" have it, GIVE ME A BREAK!

I agree with firing parents who think schools a daycare, I suggest cutting their stuff off so they can't continue to contaminate the gene pool with the next generation of welfare sucking parasites.

Okay my rant is over, I apologize for going off, but I get sick of this whining by supposedly educated folks!
 

salgeek

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Oct 2, 2003
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Public education in the elite communities is still top notch from my vantage point. The taxes I pay are a drop in the bucket compared to private prep schools in my area. The teachers in my community make good money and they work hard for it. Tenure or not the low performers are weeded out relatively quickly - but NOT nearly as quickly as the business world/private sector. If you look at their overall teacher compensation package it exceeds their contribution as they receive excellent pension and health care for life. This fact is what will make my district uncompetitive over time. Too many teacher who live a good life by choice and teach well live 40+ years beyond retirement with a full package often times this exceeds the number of years on the job. Sorry but that is not workable in the competitive world economy.
 

ellandoh

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According to the National Education Association, the average teacher salary in the state of California is about $68,000...........Basic pay for an active-duty U.S. Army private with less than two years of experience is $16,794 a year............ :think: i wonder what the retirement packages are looking like on top of that??
 

Patman

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I think the idea that ALL teachers are bad is as silly as thinking all quad riders are backwards cap wearin' drunk hillybillies that ride around in the mud. Sure there is a large percentage that fit that bill and that is the saddle that group gets placed on their backs. Dirt bike riders are all a bunch of punk kids that do crazy jumps (FMX) and ride around in giant 4x4's with their racing jerseys on right? Now if all you have seen is this specific group then your opinion will be slanted that way. Just as my experience has shown that even though I moved my family to one of the highest rated school districts in Texas we still had a poor experience with the public system so therefore my opinion of the system I was exposed to makes me believe what I believe. Heck I have friends in Texas and other states that are teachers, I don't look down on them for their job choice but I don't have any practical experience with their abilities so I wouldn't vote to get them a $40,000 raise. I get paid based on my past performance, my employess get reviewed and paid on their performance. If you screw up I tell ya' and if you do good the whole crew hears about it. Screw up too many times and you are gone because one bad apple can indeed taint the whole bunch.

I know that good teachers sre out there, they are VERY few and far between in my experience. I am glad that a couple of DRN'ers have them in their family, then again that would not be suprising given the general makeup of this specific bunch of dirt bike riding punks.
 

Wolf

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Jul 31, 2000
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As an FYI to Road Dawg...teachers don't set the agendas, teachers can not decide if the Pledge is being said or not...that comes from the administrators and bull sh*t boards. Teachers break the rules set by these people and they will be disciplined. Don't like the freaking rules? Get involved...that's how it work here anyways.

I get sick of drivel like this..."Let me tell you, teachers have a very good gig and are screwing you and I out of our tax dollars while enjoying it"

You might want to rephrase this to... you know a teacher who is screwing the system....

I'd like to know what you do for a living...so I can look up how many in your career are blood sucking scumbags who bleed the system dry.

As another FYI...I agree with you 100% in regards to the pledge and prayer.

And don't tell me not to take it personal. I do.
 

RoadDawg

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Jul 10, 2009
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Ok there Wolfie, I am a Police Officer! I will tell you like it is and you don't wanna hear it! Your State Education Association and it's Union are the problems not to mention the Republic of Kalifornia.. But you teachers follow blindly, why not, you have the best of all worlds, PAY, BENEFITS, ETC.

When the United States ranks as low as it does in educational testing, you can't just blame parents or the kids... IT'S ALSO THE TEACHERS!

It's funny, like your liberal views that you claim are forced on you, that's crap and you know it. Crack open a history book and read it sometime. I read one of my son's and it's whitewashed liberal crap. You as a teacher have a responsibilty to your students to teach the truth WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT, if most of you even know what that is. A true teacher is unbiased and teaches both sides of an opinion/equation and lets it up to the students to find what opinion they agree with.

As for cops, absolutely there are guys who we call "RODS" RETIRED ON DUTY! And they are a waste as well. But fortunatley we can put them in little tiny corners where they can't harm themselves or others unlike teachers. And when they retire, they don't get full benefits.

I think you fail to realize, you and your "all for me" thinking is way out numbered, not only on this forum , but in the public arena as well.

I'm sorry, I have a problem when a local schoolboard can raise my taxes without the taxpayer having anyway to fight that. They claim it's for better educational programs and that's also crap. IT'S FOR YOUR SALARIES AND YOUR RIDICULOUS RETIREMENT ACCOUNTS.

If it were truly for educational betterment, we would see an improvement in the standard testing that every state has their students do. So you can go and cry foul all you want, but as a famous politican once said "THAT DOG DON'T HUNT"!

When I retire, I will get 50% of my salary, no healthcare and probably die 9 years before my time as per FBI statistics, but I ain't crying about it. This is the job that chose me and unlike a teacher, I never expected to get rich or even make it to retirement. So don't cry the blues to me and these other members of the forum, cause your just towing the UNION LINE!

And you should take this personal, when you waste my tax dollars, I take it personal.

And you know what, I know plenty of teachers that are screwing the system as does everybody else in this forum.

There are some good teachers, but they seem to believe the crap that the Govt. and Education Systems are slinging in that they are owed something.

I predict teachers unions are about to be broken in every state because of the excess money that they cost each and every taxpayer. I guess like Gov. Christie stated "If you don't like it, you don't have to be doing it anymore".

And your comment about drivel. The only DRIVEL I hear is what is coming out of your mouth, beacuse the facts DO NOT support your argument.

The education system has lost control of the schools and themselves and they need to be knocked way down and I believe this is beginning to happen. THANK GOD!
 

Patman

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Ok..... maybe we're needing to move this discussion over to the Flame Forum?
:think:

Nothing wrong with some spirited debate let's just keep anything from getting too personal.
 

lake

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Oct 30, 2008
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Wolf said:
I don't have the time to read all this cut an paste stuff, and frankly I probably should refrain from participating in this thread, but, being married to a teacher (a good teacher) and having to pay for all the continued education required, and seeing the insane amount of hours put in, and seeing the 90 % of idiots who call themselves parents, and seeing the effing crappy paycheck, I will say this...apparently my view of teachers, their ambitions and passion, and their pay/reward is entirely different from most of yours. Yes there are bums running around as teachers....probably about as many as in the freaking private sector...maybe even in your office/workplace.



Let me ask you a question wolf, does you wife work in the summer when she has time off from school?
 
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