motorcycle vrs automotive oil?

Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
20
Likes
0
#1
Hey guy's I know there's alot of controversy over this and I've always had doubts but this write up really eliminates all the guess work and really give us peace of mind about our precious machines. http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

Sorry I don't know how to make a clickable link so if someone would tell me I'll edit this and make it clickable. Otherwise you'll have to get the forgotten pencil and paper and write it down for now. Take it easy! Jeff
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2000
Messages
64
Likes
0
#2
Thanks, Jeff!!!! Good article!

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2001
Messages
18
Likes
0
#3
Yeah Jeff, good article.

------------------
00 YZ426
01 TTR-125L (son's)

[This message has been edited by dirtdad (edited 03-12-2001).]
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
20
Likes
0
#4
Glad you found it useful.There is alot of good info posted by people on this board but unfortunatly alot of it is opinion or here say.So when I read this and saw that it came from a retired chemist from a major oil company and had a career in quality assurance of fuels,lubricants,and chemical products and he and his wife both ride I relized this could be used to stop all the misleading going on and allow us mostly tapped motorcycle joes to save some money. So hopefully more read this article and can use it for referance next time a new comer or someone asks this question on the board. Take it easy guy's !Jeff
 

TexKDX

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 1999
Messages
747
Likes
0
#5
This article has about the least amount of real data I've seen on the topic.

Please define what a "friction modifier" is - he sure didn't.

Most of the time it is a big spike of magnesium on the particle analysis chart for the 5W30 EC oils.
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
20
Likes
0
#6
I don't think he gave an analysis on oil,that's what all the other authors do and it just makes it confusing as all hell for the common shadetree mechanic like most of us are to understand.He's obviosly of some higher education on oil than probly you and I are and I'm sure he could have made a very educated sounding data as you put it report,however since he and his wife are riders like us and he wrote this for us knowing kids ,teenagers, uneducated ,and know it alls alike would be reading this,I'd say I'm glad he did'nt define friction modifier or vescosity,or ash content,or zinc quantity etc... Because it was a simple article that gave me confidence in my maintance and that's probly what we all look for. Jeff
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2001
Messages
81
Likes
0
#7
This article has alot of good info. I personally use Castrol 10W40 and even the mechanics at the Honda motorcycle dealership I work at run it also. One of them however said that the main difference between a motorcycle and auto oil is a motorcycle oil has to run in a transmission, which puts it under alot more stress. That's the only real thing that has me pondering about the differences in chemical make up but I figure better to run thin oil and change often then thick expensive oil and change it half as often!

------------------
2000 CR250; 1993 XR250L; 1981 XR80R; 5HP Briggs & Stratton scooter
 

TexKDX

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 1999
Messages
747
Likes
0
#8
Originally posted by Arizona_Jeff:
Because it was a simple article that gave me confidence in my maintance and that's probly what we all look for. Jeff
I can see the perspective that says we tend to believe those who agree with us.

Hearsay on a 200k mile CBR may do it for some, but personally I prefer more than anecdotal information. Anyone care for another spirited outboard-oil-in-a-motorcycle debate?
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2001
Messages
59
Likes
0
#9
Perhaps the key point is... don't use EC (energy conserving) oil.

------------------
'01 DRZe400
 

HiG4s

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 7, 2001
Messages
1,308
Likes
0
#10
WARNING!!!!!
I see NO imperical data to support this articles conjectures.
I cannot beleive this article for one minute. While much of this new SJ catagory may indeed meet motorcycle needs in general, the whole Idea that all SJ oils are the same is hog wash. In the mid 80s, before SJ, Cycle magazine did the research and took several oils of the highest rating, auto and motorcycle alike to an aeronautics test lab where they could actually test the oils. The results of this testing was that all the motorcycle oils performed much better than any of the auto oils. With Castrol GTX performing the best of all the auto oils. And I MUST, say the idea that auto oil should be fine in your motorcycle is abominable. These oils can use, at least in part, oil from shale which contains parafin. This is done because parafin increases detergent rating. The same way some states allow the use of alcahol in gas to increase the octane rating. Parafin can burn and glaze a clutch. Cars do not have oil bath clutches. I rode street bikes for many years and never had a problem until I used Pennzoil auto oil ONE TIME and glazed and ruined a clutch set. I Switched back to motorcycle oil and never changed clutch plates in that bike or any street bike again. Now Pennzoil does make motorcycle specific oil. I still would like to see some imperical data before I use it.
Oh, and just as a note, for 5 years I was a licensed master motorcycle mechanic in Michigan.
You can do what you want, but I will NOT use auto oil in any dirt bike and rarly use it in a street bike. And when I do I only use Castrol GTX.

Final note, I understand Motorcycle Consumer News did auto vs motorcycle oil testing in their Feb 94 issue. I have e-mailed them to try to get this back issue or a copy of the article and will let everyone know the results.

[This message has been edited by HiG4s (edited 03-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by HiG4s (edited 03-13-2001).]
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,652
Likes
466
Location
Chicago
#11
HiG4s - You are WAY over your skis on this one.
That article that was referenced is NOTHING BUT empirical data.
You seem unclear on the meaning of the word so here's the definition:
1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory
3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>


You need to do some REAL research before you start spouting chicken little NONSENSE. It's funny that someone who claims to be a "licensed master motorcycle mechanic" (whatever that means) hasn't bothered to look in a simple motorcycle owners manual to see that MANY of the manufacturers clearly endorse standard automotive oils.

Use what you want in your bike, but save the half baked conjecture for some other site.

FYI, Motorcycle Consumer News found Mobil 1 15W50 synthetic SJ AUTOMOTIVE oil to be the top performer in their tests. OOOPPPSSS!

http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
 

HiG4s

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 7, 2001
Messages
1,308
Likes
0
#12
Rich,
I did not insult you and I am offended you you insulting me. Certianly there is a chance I am wrong, and I agree that the person that wrote that article has a lot of impressive credentials. But that doesn't mean he can't be wrong. I am basing my judgment on personal experiences working on lots of bikes.
You can believe what you want. But as I said there is no emperical data. There is plenty of emperical conjecture but where is the data. Where is verifiable data from the expeimentation. As far as that goes my conjuctures are just as emperical as his.

And master motorcycle mechanic is the test you have to take before you are allowed to work on motorcycles professionally in Michigan. Simple as that.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,652
Likes
466
Location
Chicago
#13
Originally posted by HiG4s:
Rich,
I did not insult you and I am offended you you insulting me.
WRONG. I find it INCREDIBLY INSULTING when someone comes into these forums and starts off their thread with WARNING!!!!! as if we were all feeble minded twits, and then floats up some half-baked theories in an atttempt to pass themselves off as some kind of expert. If you feel the need to post that way then at least have the courtesy to do your homework.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if post something and present it as fact you will find yourself getting called on clearly flawed points by any number of people out here. If you are offended by that I'm sorry, but if that's the case you are clearly in the wrong place.

FYI, the chemistry "facts" in your original post are wrong too
 

HiG4s

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 7, 2001
Messages
1,308
Likes
0
#14
Home work? will if you will.
you put down the definition of emperical and claimed it is the meaning of "emperical data". If I'm an so wrong then enlighten me instead of being self-rightous.
I am sorry if the word warning offends you. I was not trying to imply that anyone here was stupid. I was trying to make sure everyone realized that that article right or wrong has no proof. And I have seen personally clutches ruined by using auto oil. I also stated right off that it was before the new SJ ratings and maybe they made a difference but I was unable to beleive it. And the reason I can't beleive it is because I have seen no proof.
SO, show me some proof and I will beleive.
Until then I must go with what I have personally seen.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2001
Messages
81
Likes
0
#15
Now now, simmer down you two! No one still has addressed my point of the main use difference between the two oils, cycle oil mean to be used in transmissions and auto oil not! I've actually heard of people putting automatic tranny oil in there bikes because it's so cheap (damn fools)! Do we have a chemist in the house!?

------------------
2000 CR250; 1993 XR250L; 1981 XR80R; 5HP Briggs & Stratton scooter
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
20
Likes
0
#16
So everyone who's clutch fails was only using auto oil?????? Cluthes fail everyday on these boards and most are using motorcycle oil. I'd say 60 percent of riders use motorcycle and 40 use auto,and I can't say the auto users and having any more reported problems on these boards that the motorcycle oil users.
I have 5 bikes all total and have yet to buy cycle oil however my oldest bike dates to 1992 and still have yet to ruin or damage my clutch or anything else for that matter. Some of my friends use auto oil in there bikes and have had failures,but so do my other friends who insist on the $8.00 quarts of cycle oil.
Your post was offensive to me also,Why? Because I posted an article for ones to read to form their own opinoin,I did not support it in my original post , I did not try to sway anyone into changing their oil and I did not post WARNING!!! STOP SPENDING $10.00 A QUART!! Why? Because it's someone's opinion,I don't know if it's true,He did'nt post "scientific facts" And neither did you!You don't know for a fact your clutch failed beacause of the type of oil you used,did you send it to a lab to have it analized? No! So why did you shoot off stating your opinoin in an emergency alert fashion? This could go on forever no one will ever know the truth because it would'nt pay anything money wise for some private non oil corp related lab to do the research. And if they did you would still have idiots find fault with the report.

I'm sorry I even posted this "supposed to be helpful take it as you want post". Later! Jeff
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,652
Likes
466
Location
Chicago
#17
Don't apologize Jeff, your post was fine.

The MCN link I posted has some interesting "hard data" in it. It doesn't answer ALL the questions, but that clearly wasn't the authors original objective, nor was it in the link you posted. The MCN article is an interesting test that puts the "empirical data" that is routinely sighted in at least some perspective.

It's far from the final word.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,652
Likes
466
Location
Chicago
#19
Originally posted by HiG4s:
you put down the definition of emperical and claimed it is the meaning of "emperical data".
Wrong again. That was straight out of Websters, unaltered.

If you are looking for enlightenment, try ZEN . I've wasted more than enough ASCII on you.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2001
Messages
18
Likes
0
#20
guys, check out this post (probably where AZ jeff originally got the link) from thumpertalk. TexKDX, still not scientific data, but most is based on experience and observation. May lend more understanding to the debate. http://thumpertalk.com/yamahayz426/Discussion/discussion.html
go to post titled "Motor Oil"
------------------
00 YZ426
01 TTR-125L (son's)

[This message has been edited by dirtdad (edited 03-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by dirtdad (edited 03-14-2001).]
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2000
Messages
47
Likes
0
#21
Rich- I recall that Motorcycle Consumer News artical, and what I found curious is that they didn't test any full synthetic motorcycle specific oils(with the possible exception of HondaHP4, my memory is fading). They also rated Castrol GTX a "best buy". I also recall that their main test criteria was actual oil viscosity after a fixed period of use. Before you get all worked up, let me say that I do agree with you, but I feel that the testing in that artical was VERY limited. AS an interesting side note, when that artical was written Mobil didn't make any motorcycle specific oils. They claimed that they couldn't possibly make any better oil than Mobil1. Now, convienently, they make m/c specific oils at twice the price.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
22,652
Likes
466
Location
Chicago
#22
As I pointed out in my post, the MCN article is far from a definitive study it's just interesting data that appears on the surface to follow a reasonably scientific method.

It's my understanding from talking to people in the petro business that the Mobil 1 MC version is just the automotive Mobil 1 without the zinc dialkyldithiophosphate restrictions that are currently mandated in automotive oils. So they didn't really reinvent the oil so much as repackage and reblend the older product with a different label and additve packge, and unfortunately a different price point. While I personally like Mobil 1, I don't see the value in the Mobil 1 motorcycle labeled oil that sells for ~$8/quart.

The simple fact is that it's pretty tough to find a name brand auto or MC oil that WON'T work well in most motorcycle situations. Even the cause and effect relationship between EC oils and clutch failures isn't clear to my satisfaction.

So what conclusions can someone draw from the above?

Mobil 1 automotive SJ rated 15w50 is a high quality oil that will serve you well in most situations, and it's a real bargain compared to the majority of motorcycle specific oils. If you are looking for the absolute highest level of protection because you are road racing, drag racing, or just the nervous type look towards a synthetic oil specifically designed for racing with a zinc content higher than allowed by the SJ rating. In general it seems wise to try and avoid oils with Energy Conserving friction modifiers, but having run these oils in two-stroke gear boxes, I can't say it's a given that EC oil will cause problems.
If you change oil often enough, it's likely that anything short of a full on race engine will survive on even discount Walmart oil.


You pays your money and you takes your choice
 

penguin

N. Texas SP
Joined
Feb 19, 2000
Messages
390
Likes
0
#23
I thought everybody used Walmart oil in their bikes
I agree with you Rich, I change my oil after every ride and use the petroleum based Delvac from Autozone at $5 a gallon. my philosophy is, if it works for you go with it.

------------------
You weren't born knowing this stuff.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2000
Messages
47
Likes
0
#24
Rich, I have often been told that I "think too much". Perhaps that is the curse of an analytical mind. Like I said before, I agree with your views. After having my GSXR1100 "slightly" modified, I looked long and hard for an oil that would satisfy my technological and practical beliefs and I settled on Mobil 1 15/50. I DO believe that there may be better oils on the market, but from a cost/availability standpoint, Mobil fits my needs. Plus, I don't leave it in long enough to break down noticably. It is my baby, you know.
 

jdrobins

Sponsoring Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2000
Messages
66
Likes
0
#25
I'm sorry I even posted this "supposed to be helpful take it as you want post". Later! Jeff[/B]
Jeff, information like this is why I come to this board, There is no reason to be sorry, Like any information posted there will always be differences of opinions but that is why the info is valuable, so that everyone can discuss and maybe come to a conclusion right or wrong. Please keep posting for us non experts.

Jim