Save Me (us) From The Dark Side !!!!

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oldfrt613

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I have been a die hard 2-stroke guy all my life. I can hold my own at any of my local motocross tracks, even against the yougsters in the A class on my 250 2-stroke. We have had a 250F in the stable for a couple of months - the thing is truely amazing when compared to the 125 we have. We even turned the 125 to a 155 - much better, but not as easy to ride as the 250F, but at least it can hold its own now. I have to think the same would hold true for the 450F. They rev a little longer down the straights - one less gear to grab then drop in the corner. Now I see #4, #22 and #259 on 450F's in the suprecross - it will only be a matter of time before the aluring smell of premix will be replaced by ear shattering thunder.
WHAT CAN WE DO !!!!
Should I just bite the bullet and come to the realization that we are all screwed !
 

Rider 007

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Help organize and push for separate classes for at your track. Talk to the proper people at the track and tell them that just because AMA Pro allows 450F's and 250F's to race against the smaller 2-strokes doesn't mean that they have to or that they can't have alternate classes.

Then consider boycotting any track that won't offer the separate classes. If you have enough riders you can make an economic impact, and that's what they hear... cha-ching!

I'm hoping the local scene can provide the momentum to keep the 2-strokes alive and well. Perhaps an alternate sanctioning body could provide the venue and the gravity to influence the geniuses at the AMA.

Good luck!

:ride:
 

Okiewan

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That all sounds great Rider 007 ... but honestly, I can't remember seeing more than 1 or 2, 2-t's at the track over the last couple of years... try to convince an owner to banish 95% of his entry fees. I'm sure he'll be all over it.

I hate to sound so pro 4-t/anti 2-t, but man, you just can't deny the future. It's already here. I was riding when 4-t's where the norm the first time, then 2-t's and now 4-t's again... it happens.
 

jrm

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The only reason for the supposed "superiority" of the 4-strokes is that the AMA goofed when calculating the displacement advantage 4-strokes could have. Now that the manufacturers are locked into certain sizes (450 and 250) there's no way the AMA will reverse itself and correct its mistake.

How about asking the AMA and track owners to get rid of the stupid 4-stroke class (which used to exist as a class for the few 4-stroke riders to compete in before the AMA bestowed the unfair displacement advantage on them) and replace it with a two-stroke class. Or better yet, go back to 250 and Open classes and let the 2 stroke 250s compete with the 250Fs. The 450s can run against the Service Honda CR500s (LOL).
 

Rider 007

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Okiewan said:
That all sounds great Rider 007 ... but honestly, I can't remember seeing more than 1 or 2, 2-t's at the track over the last couple of years... try to convince an owner to banish 95% of his entry fees. I'm sure he'll be all over it.

I hate to sound so pro 4-t/anti 2-t, but man, you just can't deny the future. It's already here. I was riding when 4-t's where the norm the first time, then 2-t's and now 4-t's again... it happens.

Okie,

I never said banish the 4 bangers, just offer a separate class for the bikes. If they don't feel like there is enough interest to justify it, take your bike and money elsewhere and try to get a track that will cater to that idea.

This might lead to what the quads went through for years. A cottage industry and racing catering to them.

Just some suggestions. :cool:

I have two 450F's, one 250F and four 250 smokers. While the strokers have their place and offer some advantages, they are also at a disadvantage in some areas.

And if they are forced to compete in equal displacement classes, they are almost entirely at a disadvantage. ;)

To me the question is are you going to decide what to ride/race, or let someone else decide for you?

:ride:
 

rm_racer

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Mar 15, 2005
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Its actually mostly 2 strokes at my local track. Im guessing that is becasue it is mostly kids who ride around here who cant afford 4 strokes or the service bill they get if/when it gernades. I do expect more 4 strokes this year though becasue 2 years ago there was only one or two, this summer there was about 10 or 11.
 

kx250kev

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Jan 17, 2005
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If you really want a reality check, forget the AMA rules, and compare bikes by displacement only. Ride a 250F, then hop on a two-stroke 250. If classed were based on displacement alone, the 4-strokes would be at the bottom of the pile IMHO. I don't race anymore, so 2-strokes are still KING in my book. Long live the smokers!
 

johan

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Nov 22, 2004
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Hallo
I will always ride 2 strokes,I dont care if I am called a dinosaur[even though I am only 29 years old]
I rode both types of bikes and I just like the smell,the sound ,the power and the way it made me feel when I saw and heard my first 2 stroke when I was a small boy.
Throw in ease of maintance,and cost compared to 4 strokes,I think then I will be riding a 2 smoke for a long time to come.
I dont have $3 to $4000 if my fourstroke breaks[and yes they will break,nothing lasts for ever]even the big mags like motox action say that when they break,not if they break,then I will rather spend $300 than $3000 to get it running again.
I dont care if 4 strokes are the cutting edge at this point,I dont race ,I ride for my enjoyment and it is me and thousands others like you guys out there that will keep the 2 smoke alive.
We are not Ricky or Bubba but we are the guys that spend our hard earned money on bikes and at the end of the day it is us that keep companies afloat ,let it be by buying a 4 stroke or 2 stroke.
The power is with us ,not a silly sanctioning body that thinks they are God,who do you think buys tickets to go see mx or supercross them or us
At the end it all boils down to fun and what is dear to you.
Just my 2 cents.
Slip the clutch and give her hell.
Regards
Johan
 

Rider 007

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Again, as mentioned earlier, the only reason the situation exists is because of an artificial influence - the AMA allowing riders to compete against other riders while having a 2 to 1 displacement advantage. Not to mention adopting a totally unnecessary FIM fuel regulation that further hampers the 2-strokes.

The AMA needs to decide if they want riders competing on similar machines while letting their skill determine the race winner or if they want to let the Pro racing be a competition that tests the effectiveness of two different internal combustion processes where the displacements are grossly unequal.

Let the 250F's race against the 250's and see where the chips fall. :rotfl:

I think the pitfalls of the rush to F1 technology housed in a dirt bike frame while trying to stay competitive against the cost of a 2-stroke racer has been well documented even at this site. :bang:

If the push continues with 150F's against 85's, I believe you'll start to see the entry level participation begin to wither, and it only makes sense: as the price of entry becomes higher it will automatically decrease the number of people that can afford to participate. And if you don't think that getting people involved in the sport at a young age is important to the overall health of the sport, I think you'll find every manufacturer disagreeing with you. All of them try to woo them at a young age and keep them as loyal customers.

Ride your F's if you want... I ride mine when I want to. I also ride or race the 2-strokes when I want. And that's the nice part of it, that I have a choice.

I truly hope that if the manufacturers, magazines, aftermarket part companies (who wouldn't want to sell $1000 exhausts?! :coocoo: ) and AMA continue to attempt to euthanize the 2-stroke, a group will be formed to fill the void that is left.

The quads did it for years when the manufacturers wouldn't build what they wanted. After they saw the market they were missing out on, they started producing competition ready machines.

Let's hope not everyone is drinking the same kool-aid! :)

:ride:
 

rodH

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why are so many on this board wanting to see the death of the 2 stroke so bad, its kind of weird
 

Rider 007

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rodH said:
why are so many on this board wanting to see the death of the 2 stroke so bad, its kind of weird

For the same reason people had parachute pants and rattails... it's what all the cool people do! :rotfl:
 

Masterphil

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rodH said:
why are so many on this board wanting to see the death of the 2 stroke so bad, its kind of weird

It's easier than trying to change the inevitable. It's going to happen, I don't want it to, but my purchasing a new two stroke isint going to change that fact. Even though that is what I did. When the 125's and 250's die, will there be a service honda there to save them too? All this 4-stroke talk is making me want to go out and buy an AF, stomp that F1 tech with an old school non-powervalved, Iron lined cyl CR500OOOHHHHYEEEAAAAF!!!
 

oldfrt613

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But you can't race the 500AF in the 250 class against the 450F - only us relics can do that ! :think: I kind of like spank'n them youngsters once in a while ! :laugh:
 

mx547

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oldfrt613 said:
But you can't race the 500AF in the 250 class against the 450F

all the local tracks here (okla) allow it. get away from ama sanctioned tracks and go race for fun.
 

bedell99

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The real dilemma is in the 125 class. A 250f is head and shoulders better than a 125 if you race. Now the downside is the catastrophic engine failure that costs 2K to fix. I love 250f but feel a 450f is just way too much bike for me and chose to ride a 250 2-stroke. I can't see 250's going away in the next couple of years. I know there are alot of people like me who love 2 strokes, but to tell the truth I think my next bike is going to be a 250f.

Erik
 

Okiewan

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There's a lot of talk about the rules, what's fair, displacement advantages, technology advantages/disadvantages, blah, blah, blah... I don't think anyone disagrees that the rules favored the 4-T's ... none of that is really the issue! None of it. Right, wrong or otherwise, the writting is on the wall.

It's not that anyone wants to see 2-T's go away... I'd really like to see the mfg's make two versions of every (class) bike, but do you really think that will continue (KX125)? There very well may come a day when all the tracks have a class just for 2-T's, but how long do you think they can afford to double up like that? The roles are just going to be reversed; just as the "4-Stroke Nationals" where/are a second tier series, so will the 2-T classes.

We are wasting time arguing for the superiority of either technology, the writting is on the wall and all the complaining in the world isn't going to stop the demise of the 2-stroke. The most popular form of motorcycle racing is completely dominated by the 4-T.. the new buyers see nothing but 4-T's and that's what they'll buy, end of story.
 

Okiewan

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bedell99 said:
I know there are alot of people like me who love 2 strokes, but to tell the truth I think my next bike is going to be a 250f.

Erik

Of the 500, 250's and 450's I've owned in the past... the 250F (YZF and CRF) are without doubt the most fun motorcyle I've ever ridden. For my style and speed (or lack there of), the 250 4-T (power/weight/handling) is perfect.
 

oldfrt613

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Unfortunately, I agree Okie. There is no stopping it - I think the 2-strokes are going to be history - just like what happened to the 4-strokes in the seventies - maybe in time they will come back. With the big boys running the 4-strokes in the supercross, I think it will happen sooner rather than later. Can't really compare it to 4-wheelers. A guy won't buy a dirt bike but will buy a 4-wheelers - but I don't think you'll ever see guys not buy a dirt bike because he can't get a 2-stroke instead of a 4-stroke. The bottom line, I love to ride - and I'll ride what they make - hopefully this discussion won't ever be "what will you do when you can't buy a dirt bike"

Keep on Roost'n
 

+30

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new bikes

As a two stroke fan, i wonder How are $7k bikes with $2k- repair bills sustainable? I love motocross. But I wont be able to afford to compete later on down the road when my kids are going through the big bike classes. It will be a rich kid only sport. If they want I'll take them to a much smaller track thats just as fun. A top notch bmx bike is about 1K and way less maintenance, communities are less likely to shut the tracks down and the kids can ride and practice all around town. Motocross will lose out if they kill the 2 strokes and make the bikes out of 100% unobtainium. Right now people seem willing to take the hit and pay. To me it looks more like a hold-up.
 

MXP1MP

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Yea I think 2 strokes are going away even though I'm a die hard 2 stroke guy. Do I think the current 4 strokes are that good or that much better on the amatuer local scene everyday average ridder? nope nadda I say what I tell my friends I'm not going to get another new bike again not till the next gen 4 stroke motors come out i'll be the guy on the track you see still railing on the by then "old skewl first gen alum frame yz 125!! way look at that relic or people will say remember when they made those" I don't have the time nor patience to be a factory test pilot

Look at how much 250F's have changed in just the past 2 years. It's almost like a computer you by the latest n greatest and it's obsolete all ready. I see 250F's right now as a good first effort but they still have issue's that will keep me away. So I got two new YZ's a 125 and 250 I figure these two bikes should keep me happy for at least the next 5 yrs by then maybe the 250F's will be more reliable and the handling tweaking issue's etc will be worked out. So keep soldiering on little soldiers someone's gotta do the R & D :) I'll just sit back and watch on my old 2 strokes :)
 

Rider 007

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Okiewan said:
There's a lot of talk about the rules, what's fair, displacement advantages, technology advantages/disadvantages, blah, blah, blah... I don't think anyone disagrees that the rules favored the 4-T's ... none of that is really the issue! None of it. Right, wrong or otherwise, the writting is on the wall.

None of it?
So, you mean that if the displacement issue (imposed by the AMA), which led to the advantage/disadvantage discussion, wasn't there, consumers would be buying the same way?
If 250F's were required to race 250 2-T's and 450F's were the new open class, they would still sell in the same numbers and the 125's would be dead (even though the only legal 125 class bike would be a 125 2-T)?

Okiewan said:
It's not that anyone wants to see 2-T's go away... I'd really like to see the mfg's make two versions of every (class) bike, but do you really think that will continue (KX125)? There very well may come a day when all the tracks have a class just for 2-T's, but how long do you think they can afford to double up like that? The roles are just going to be reversed; just as the "4-Stroke Nationals" where/are a second tier series, so will the 2-T classes.

We agree on a lot of this. My point is that the rules are what is making people choose to by the 4-T's for racing. If people just buy them for fun, heck, buy what you like. That's what I've done. I really like every bike I own. Each has it's charms and I like having a choice. But I know most people can't afford to have 8 toys in the garage and those that have racing families are going to have to take a long hard look at the significant increase in cost brought on solely by changing to a 4-T engine. There are already a few posts in this thread commenting on this.

Okiewan said:
We are wasting time arguing for the superiority of either technology, the writting is on the wall and all the complaining in the world isn't going to stop the demise of the 2-stroke. The most popular form of motorcycle racing is completely dominated by the 4-T.. the new buyers see nothing but 4-T's and that's what they'll buy, end of story.

Not arguing about superior tech, and the writing is on the wall because of artificial influences on the market (the AMA in racing and CARB in CA on public land).

Leave the displacement rules in place, thereby making the 250F's race against the 250 2-T's, put the 450F's in the open class and then let's see if that writing isn't revised . ;)

Again, I just hate to see a very attractive choice go away unnecessarily.

:ride:
 

Masterphil

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Every year the factories, with exception to KTM's EXC/MXC or XC/XC-W line, are losing more and more money making and selling the 2-strokes. As far as MX/SX is concerned, the two stroke death is as much to blame on the AMA as it is to blame on the factories or riders themselves. 4-stroke bikes are hot sellers, that's why the 2-stroke is dying, rules have nothing to do with it. The pro's don't make the factories any money, we do. The amatures that purchase these bikes are what is driving the death of the two stroke. At first, riding a 4-stroke gave you an advantage over all the 2T's. Now If you don't ride one, you are at a disadvantage. If everyone bought up the 2-stokes instead of the 4's, the factories would be in a bit of a pickle.
 

bedell99

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If the AMA wanted to fix the situation they can do a couple of things The first is lower the sound limit. (which they did). Next is lower the weight limits to 184lbs and 206 lbs respectively. (For a 2 stroke to use this to its full advantage) Allow a displacement of 150cc in the 125cc class and 275cc in the 250 class. Guys 250 2 stokes are not going away though for at least 10 year. If new technology happens which allows green stickered 2 strokes with nice horsepower. The offroad guys will continue to buy them. There is still technology out there with direct injection, to make a 2 stroke clean and powerful at the same time.

Erik
 

Okiewan

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Rider.. you seem to have missed my point ... bottom line; it doesn't MATTER what happened, it did and it's done. Writing pages of rant will not change it. Would've/could've/should've gets you exactly nowhere. We either need to accept it, or get a different hobby. 2-strokes are dead, no matter how much any of us don't want it to be so.

In case you haven't noticed, there is no more 125 and 250 class.
 
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