Save Me (us) From The Dark Side !!!!

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jrm

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Apr 30, 2002
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I hope you're wrong that the issue is dead. If the mfrs have made an internal comittment to stop making 2 strokes, then that likely will not be reversed. However, barring that, it's just a matter of getting the AMA's arbitrary rules changed to even the playing field. That IS possible, as we just saw with the AMA's decision to allow 144cc two strokes in the "250F" class (although they should have made it 150cc). One thing is for sure: if everyone who likes to buy and rides two-strokes just gives up, then nothing will change and they'll be made obsolete in 5 years or less.
 

Okiewan

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That IS possible, as we just saw with the AMA's decision to allow 144cc two strokes in the "250F" class
That's a clear indication that they will not be changing the rules back, or changing them in a way that will cause the mfg's to continue making 2 lines of bikes for the same class... rather it's 144, or 244. Why would the AMA change the rules for the pro's when none of them are racing 2-strokes? Now at the local level it makes sense... allows those already with 125's to bump them up... ie; not have to buy a new bike. I assume the mfg's will use the bigger bore for their 125's next year or sell a kit. It's just a bandaid rule for the short term.
 

mtk

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Masterphil said:
Every year the factories, with exception to KTM's EXC/MXC or XC/XC-W line, are losing more and more money making and selling the 2-strokes. As far as MX/SX is concerned, the two stroke death is as much to blame on the AMA as it is to blame on the factories or riders themselves. 4-stroke bikes are hot sellers, that's why the 2-stroke is dying, rules have nothing to do with it.

This assumes the market exists in a vacuum. It doesn't. A large portion of MX bikes purchased in the USA are bought to race, so saying the rules don't matter is just wrong. You buy a bike to race based upon the rules under which you'll be racing. With the advantages given to four-strokes, you're stacking the deck against yourself by buying a two-stroke if you want to race it. That leads folks to buy four-strokes. The cheaper maintenance of a two-stroke is a secondary concern, while the advantages of a four-stroke on your race results is a primary concern.

If the AMA adjusted the rules to achive parity between the engine types, then the cheaper maintenance of a two-stroke would be a factor. But you've got to make it so that the two are equally competitive on the racetrack before the secondary factors will even be considered.

But the AMA isn't going to change things and the manufacturers don't really care anyway since they prefer four-strokes. The two-stroke engine is all but dead due to emissions regulations, so any development knowledge on them has little use outside of closed-course competition models. Anything they learn with the four-strokes can be applied across their product lines. Or looking at it another way, what they've learned in their sportbike lines can be applied to the dirt bike lines. That's exactly why the manufacturers wanted MotoGP to go to four-strokes instead of the old 500cc two-strokes, so they could get more return on their investment.
 

Rider 007

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No ranting here, perhaps you're sensing a tone that isn't there. This started off by answering the original question and has expanded to a discussion. :nod:


Okiewan said:
That's a clear indication that they will not be changing the rules back, or changing them in a way that will cause the mfg's to continue making 2 lines of bikes for the same class... rather it's 144, or 244. Why would the AMA change the rules for the pro's when none of them are racing 2-strokes? Now at the local level it makes sense... allows those already with 125's to bump them up... ie; not have to buy a new bike. I assume the mfg's will use the bigger bore for their 125's next year or sell a kit. It's just a bandaid rule for the short term.

Bingo! :cool:

That's what I've been getting at - the Pros don't buy their bikes, consumers do! And if the market is "resurrected" with rule changes at local AMA sanctioned tracks, then there could still be a demand for the bikes.

:ride:
 

oldfrt613

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No, pros don't buy bikes, but they do sell them - what the pros ride the masses buy - that's why the factories spend so much on racing. You can say what effects the pros shouldn't effect us, but it does. People will spend lots of money on what makes them happy.

Chances are one of the manufactures will keep the 2-stroke, but it will probably wind up being a keep sake to appease a small market of die hard fans and no technological advancements will be made ( much like the CR500 and KDX200 - no offense to the off-roaders ). Dare I say the yo-yo's who started this are the ones who seem commited to the advantages of a LIGHT WEIGHT 2 stroke - Yamaha. We seem to forget, these companies also make other products, like high performance outboard motors. Honda has commited to 4-stroke technologies for there outboards - Yamaha has commited to the direct injection 2-stroke. Not sure where Suzuki is on this, but I don't realy think there in the high performance outboard business.

Is the 2-stroke here to stay - probably. Will it be the weapon of choice for racing ? Not without rule changes. Is the current trend towards 4-strokes a bad thing ? For some yes, for others, no, for most it really doesn't matter - as long as we can keep riding.
My biggest concern with the thumpers is the noise. The thumper exhaust note carries - way further than the 2-stroke. As a land owner, I have to be concerned with not aggravating my neighbors - as we all should be. Shutting offroading down for pollution is one thing ( difficult to prove, especially since all the emmissions from our offroading won't hold a candle to a day of rush hour traffic in a big city ), shutting it down for noise is quite another ( can't argue that they don't make noise ).
 

Rider 007

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End of discussion!

It's official - everyone worship at the valve and cam altar!

Failure to do so will result in much pain! :p
 

oldfrt613

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Now look what I went and started !
 

Rider 007

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And yours aren't? :laugh:
And just why are you looking? :rotfl:

No one has said that isn't how the manufacturers are going to play it... I attempted to answer the question of "what can we do?".

Somewhere you misread me in this thread.

Enjoy your twin piper, I'll be enjoying all the really great bikes available, 2 and 4-stroke!
And I'll even let you ride one later on when everyone has forgotten what they're like! :cool:

:ride:
 

bedell99

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The next 2 years will determine if 2 strokes stay alive. If yamaha and suzuki continue to upgrade there bikes the future looks good. Honda is a lost cause, basically i hope they stop making 2 strokes to give even more market share to yamaha, which in turn means better bikes.

Erik
 

oldfrt613

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Handing over market share is usually a formula for stagnent development - not better bikes
 

+30

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Aug 2, 2005
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Lap Times

I shaved like a bizzillion seconds off my lap times the first time i threw a leg over a 450. No, wait, thats not right, I stalled it in the corner and waited there for its rightful owner to come over and claim it. Its all coming back now. you can have em. ring dings forever
 

mtk

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Rider 007 said:
End of discussion!

It's official - everyone worship at the valve and cam altar!

I do... in streetbikes. Both my street bike and my road race bikes are four-strokes and I'm A-OK with that.

But the dirt is a horrible environment to operate an engine in. In that environment, I much prefer the simple and easy to rebuild two-stroke over the complex four-stroke with all its extra wear parts.

The only fart sounds that should be associated with dirt-biking are those made around the campfire, while drinking a few beers after riding all day. :yikes:
 

Rider 007

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mtk said:
The only fart sounds that should be associated with dirt-biking are those made around the campfire, while drinking a few beers after riding all day. :yikes:

I see a Blazing Saddles sequel somewhere in there! :)
 

oldfrt613

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This is getting ugly.
 

Masterphil

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mtk said:
The only fart sounds that should be associated with dirt-biking are those made around the campfire, while drinking a few beers after riding all day. :yikes:

My thoughts exactly. MX bikes shouldn't be easy to ride. They should have brutal power deliverey, with an arm ripping hit. They should be built to be ridden wide open or not at all. They need to have a clearly defined powerband. I don't want smooth power, I want to be able to feel where it's at. I could never do that with the 426. Buying a 2-stroke was the best move I've made yet. I don't plan on farting-around until I can't buy a competetive smoker anymore.
 

+30

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Aug 2, 2005
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everybody cheats

bigger must be better. Our sport is dominated by bikes with pistons the size of hub caps. Golf is dominated by clubs with heads the size of tennis racquets. I hear the NBA will soon be upping the displacement of the hoop to nearly double its size, and pool tables will have 2 foot wide pockets, hockey and soccer nets double displacement, corked bats will be approved, and marathoners will now be allowed a 450cc segway scooter to boost sales of the dismal product.
 

bedell99

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May 3, 2000
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Old fart you are right in pure economic terms, but remember they still will have to compete with 4 strokes which means yamaha and suzuki will keep upping the ante to lure buyer to there 2 strokes. This is a generalized question for 4 stroke people. Would you go back to a 2 stroke if serious engine and weight development happened and the 2's where able to surpass on both handling, weight and power the 4 stroke???( I know this is a loaded question)

Erik
 

MXP1MP

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Nov 14, 2000
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IF they stopped making 2 strokes and the new 4 stroke of that time don't ride any better than my last one really, I'll be holding onto my 2 strokes till thier worn to the ground. Thing around here is I still see an even mix of new 2's and new 4's.
 

bedell99

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May 3, 2000
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Okie, market share is market share. Yes from an economic standpoint there is no sense in making 2 bikes for 1 class except if your selling them. I know yamaha sells a boatload of YZ250's and 125's. They have been stealing Honda's hold on that share of the market for the past couple of years. The bottom line is making money. If a person decides to go back to a 2 stroke from say riding a CRF, there is yamaha licking up the scraps. I have seen a couple of VIN numbers on 05 YZ250's in the 6000's. Mine is 5800. There is still a market for them and if yamaha is smart it will keep upgrading there bikes to cater to the market.

Erik
 

Okiewan

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I hear what you are saying, but respectfully disagree. 2x the R&D, 2x the marketing, 2x the inventory, probably more vendors, tooling, etc. And the dealers will order what the market wants... right now that's 4-strokes. I'd really like to see some production numbers from each of the big 5, but feel confident that the 4-T's are selling much better, I've also heard that sales overall are down on dirt bikes for what that's worth. It just doesn't make sense to make two completely different (engine, frame, etc) bikes. Now if they were modular, ie; simply plug in a different motor and everything else stays the same, then yes. It's my belief that we are simply in a period of flux. One or the other will win out, then the other will phase out, or at least R&D will stop... examples being the 500's and KDX's. Once the initial production costs are covered and ROI long since acheived, yeah, it's pretty easy to keep making the same thing as long as there is someone to buy it. IMHO, that's the next phase of the 2-stroke business.
 
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