Son's 02 KX65 Rod Seize! Advice?

[mkandl53]

Son's 02 KX65 Rod Seizeure! Advice Needed!

We just got my son's KX65 and ran about 3/4 gal fuel through it.
Then then the lower rod bearing seized to the crank! Man are we bummed. I called the dealer and he is saying no warranty, but he can call Kawasaki... What is my recourse here? Am I just out of luck?

There is debris marks on the piston top and head as well, that I presume are after affects from the bearing seizure. Also, at the lower beaaring location, one of the crank flywheels is blue from heat and the other has NO discoloration. Any ideas what caused this? Should I replace the main bearings as well because of the possible debris that must have been involved?

Thanks so much for any guidance!

 

[DDNMC78X]

If its truly that new and you havent changed anything that might have caused it, there is no reason your dealer shouldnt call Kawasaki and ask for help. They are very good about goodwill warranty.

 

[spanky250]

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but it sounds like the cause is improper warm-up, causing a cold seizure. Ridng when the engine is too cold to evaporate all of the fuel as it comes into the crankcase, you run the risk of having liquid fuel wash the oil off of the bering surfaces, resulting in metal-to-metal contact, with the end result being a blown engine.:( The former owner of my bike did exactly that, riding it without warming it up thoroughly, and seized the rod bearing, trashing the top-end in the process by flying debris.

 

[smarttoys]

If its truly that new and you havent changed anything that might have caused it, there is no reason your dealer shouldnt call Kawasaki and ask for help. They are very good about goodwill warranty.

I would agree with that. I know that the Kawasaki dealer in my area would find a way to get it taken care of and has been able to get Kawasaki to cover quite a few things under goodwill warranty. If your dealer values your business he will try his best to get it covered for you.

 

[mkandl53]

Yea, the bike is that new and we did the break-in pretty carefully the day previous.

I am pretty careful about the warm up. I have had bikes for so many years... The last couple is a KX250 and now the CRF450. I let the bikes warm up for about 3 min prior to running them hard and we had about 1 hour on this machine. The seizure occured on the second day of running and at the ime of seizure, it was about 10-15 min after the warm up...

I am curious about the mention of cold seizure with the bearings as I have never heard this before... I always thought the cold seizure referred to the piston and cylinder temperature differentials causing a metal-metal contact; not related to bearings.

Anyone else know anything about this? I have been involved with bikes or kart racing my whole life, but believe it or not, this is the first rod bearing I have ever seized up so I am not an expert in this area, for sure.

Thanks again for all the insight and guidance here.

 

[Durt Cycler]

I always thought cold seizure was when the piston expands faster then the cylinder causing smaller piston/cylidner clearance? Sounds like a lack of lubrication to me. What ratio were you running in the bike? I also think it could have been debri entering the combustion through the intake.

 

[dell30rb]

cold siezure can be caused by two things. 1 piston expands faster than cylinder

2 the exhaust side of the cylinder heats up really fast, and the rest of it remains cold because of all the cold water in the system. The cylinder warps slightly and shmushes the piston

 

[GKKarns]

I've ndone two kx65 bottom ends because of big end failure. Both bikes
were new 5-10 hrs on each. What we found was that the factory used too
much case sealant. The bead projected too far into the cases and as the rod
came around the oiling groove scraped the sealant off and filled up with it
not allowing any oil to get into the bearing. I have never heard of a cold
siezure of a roller bearing every true roller bearing siezure that I have seen
in industry was lack of lube or heat related or improper clearances.
The dealer did not cover either one of these bikes That is how I ended up
getting them to do. One was a 2000 and the other was a 2001. don't
get over zealous with the goo. Remember you can over do a good thing.
Hope this helps.
Garret

 

[mkandl53]

GKKarns,
Great reply!!!!! I thank you so much. I would have not looked there and of course, would have spread the goo *******ly!!!
That clearance is very tight and I could easily see this problem happening.
I will take a close look when I split the cases.
Do you think I should replace the main bearings because of the debris? This might be a dumb question and my current plan is to do so, but I was wondering if you usually do.
Thanks for the kind help!

 

[GKKarns]

I always replace the main conrad bearings(crank bearings) when I split
cases. I believe for your 65, forgive me I'm going off memory I think
one is a 6304 ? I don't remember the other but you can get them at a
local bearing house 3-6 dollars apiece.I don't believe they are like honda
bearings where(250) you have to get them from honda.
Hopoe this helps. Good luck
Garret

 

[mkandl53]

I have a concern. It seem like the KX65's that have had failures are isolated many times to the same machine and they just keep happening to that bike over and over!

What has me worried is that the cases have bright ink pen markings on the bottom that look like numbers put on to match up case halfs at the factory. On my sons's kx65 one of the numbers is an 8 that looks like it got slurred into a 6 and the other side is a 6 digit. It there any way case mis-matching can cause a lower end bearing failure?

There is a small step that you can feel where the cases meet on the machined suface under the cylinder and so I started to think about this mis-matched case thing...

Any experience here?

 

[bigred455]

Originally posted by GKKarns
I've ndone two kx65 bottom ends because of big end failure. Both bikes
were new 5-10 hrs on each. What we found was that the factory used too
much case sealant. The bead projected too far into the cases and as the rod
came around the oiling groove scraped the sealant off and filled up with it
not allowing any oil to get into the bearing. I have never heard of a cold
siezure of a roller bearing every true roller bearing siezure that I have seen
in industry was lack of lube or heat related or improper clearances.
The dealer did not cover either one of these bikes That is how I ended up
getting them to do. One was a 2000 and the other was a 2001. don't
get over zealous with the goo. Remember you can over do a good thing.
Hope this helps.
Garret

...


Wow that is a great call,my buddy split my cases for me a while ago,on my 00 kx 250,I told him to go heavy on the 3 bond sealant.He told me you really don't wan't that much,i said lay it on.When i got my bike back i had this ting ting ting ting hang up right before it dropped to idle and it would jerk forward with the sound..About 5 rides later my big end rod bearings were gone, jetting was fine no air leaks, the bottom locked,he said he found sealant all over .Well anyway's i got him to redo my motor and i said do it your way .I got the motor back, slapped it in and the ting ting hang up was gone.I now believe that was the cause of my bottom end failure.I would of never thought.

 

[GKKarns]

Hey mk, haveyou split the cases yet? I'm curious as to what you have found.
Did the bike have an abnormal vibration while running that rose and fell
with rpm of the engine? Which ball bearing on the crank turned blue,flywheel sideor clutch side and what does the top wristpin look like. get a magnifying
glass and and look for brinnelling patterns. the lower end rod bearing will
mimick what the wrist pin looks like.if you see brinneling patterns heavier
on one side it could mean that the crank is tipped in the cases. How big is
the step? you should be able to measure it with a decent set of calipers
depth mike etc. It's also possible that one of the ballbearings had some
run out I have seen this before it doesn't happen often but it does happen.
I've never had a problem with the ones that I have done. But I have redone
a few shops work on this model and the kx60's. These bikes it is very easy
to pinch the crank between the bearings and preload them, which for their
application is a no no. Being a brand new bik I doubt that the cases
are mismatched. You need to look hard and determine which bearing
failed first and why the others failed as a result of the one that failed first.
As long as the bearing locations in the crank halves are in the same axis,
the base surface for the cylinder can be fixed.It's hard to trouble shoot
without seeing it right in front you. hope this helps.
Garret

 

[smarttoys]

I still think you should see if Kawasaki will cover it. Like I said before the dealer in my area has been able to get Kawasaki to cover 3 bottom end failures on the KX65. Even if they just cover the parts, it would be better than nothing.

 

[GKKarns]

Mk, by all means see if your dealer will cover it.If they won't
I would call a kawasaki area rep. you should at least get parts. But their
is nothing wrong with wanting to know why it failed so tha it can be prevented
from happening again. My son and I ride yamaha's that is because of the
dealer support we get. not because yamaha is a superior product. Whomever
we get the best support from is what determines what brand we ride.
unfortunateley you are limited in the 65 class. I sometimes think that is why the dealer here was reluctant to help my friends with theirs. pretty much had a captive audience. They wouldn't pursue getting an area rep involved either
had more to do with catching a race in 2 days at the time, and not being patient. Any how our kawi dealer died last year and the business is being run by his son. Might be time to go and talk to him again.
Garrer

 

[Ol'89r]

MK.

We ran the KX65's for a couple of seasons and found that if you run the maximum allowed side clearance in the big end shims and also, vee out the slots in the big end oil slots to accept more oil, the big ends will last a lot longer.

We did this and also ran Yamalube 'R' at 32 to 1. Finally cured the problem by going to a KTM 65.

I agree with Garret in regard to contacting an area rep. Sounds like your crank may have failed a little too soon.

Just my $ .02

 

[jmics19067]

WOW lots of neat little tidbits I woulda never guessed! If you are completely honest with the making sure the premix was right not forgetting to put the air filter back in alll them foolish thing s that can and do happen, go back to the dealer definalety. If you cant come to an agreement go to their boss and so on and so on. If all of these things are true about deck hieghts ,crankshaft planes and too much sealer and if that is indeed your problem I would be very hard pressed to spend my money on something new with such lousy quaility control. I would never in a million years would think about buying a new bike just too tear the motor down to its last nut and bolt just too see if the factory assembled it correct. Shouldnt be my concern nope nada nothing. If standard production tolerances can allow this type of problem then I think it is their job to work on their producton tolerances!!

Unfortunately it is becoming a common practice / ethic in this country to get away with what you can. If the dealer can get you to beleive the blame is yours well what can you do buy parts from him? pay him to fix it ? So whats he say? You blew it up because you didnt warm it up or operate in correctly . Did he atleast talk to you nice when you first brought it back? "Well lets have the shop tear it down and look at it and see if they can find what the problem is"

I guess I would tell them exactly what I did/didn't do to the bike and asked them" what did I do that was wrong?" If there was nothing that they can say you did wrong<that actually makes sense> then ask them" If I did nothing wrong why should I be accepting blame for it? Why am I responsibe?'" " what would you do or how would youfeel if you where in my shoes?" getting louder and louder as you climb up the ladder of bosses till you get what you feel is satisfactory

 

[mkandl53]

The latest is that I measured the mismatch at the top of the cases with a straight edge and there was .0025" offset between the two halves at the front and rear of the machined area where the cylinder sits. I relayed this to the dealer who called Kaw and they said to send them the cases. So, I split the cases and sent them to Kaw in CA. I should know something today or tomorrow... I photographed the case mismatch and the crank discolortation but Kaw apparently wants to see the actual parts.

So far, except for the clutch and tranny, there is just about every component on the engine being replaced. One last note, when the lower end bearing failed it not only sent the debris through the engine, the rod made contact with the bottom of the cases and started grinding them away!

I can only hope to not be going through this again for awhile or the KX65 will be on the sales block and we will switch to the KTM 65SX, that's for sure!

 

[georgieboy]

i am curious about the pictures. Is it possible to show them to us. Cld be great education material.

 

[mkandl53]

Brand New KX65 Engine Failure Pics

Here are the pics of the lower end rod bearing failure, it's debris damage and the miss-match of the crankcase halves that may have caused the failure.
I am interested in any feedback regarding the liklyhood of the .0025" miss-match on the crankcase halves causing a bind on the lower end bearing, and initiating the failure.

Brand New (1 hr) 2002 KX65 Rod Bearing Failure :ugg:

 

[GKKarns]

Hey Mk I would like to see the wrist pin, and the big end pin if you split the crank. the mismatch in the cases will tip the cylinder putting a side load
on the rod, probably reducing the clearance between the pin and the roller
bearing. It I would bet that the hot side is the low side of the two halves.
that should be the side where the clearance is reduced under compression.
It definitley failed because of no nada lubrication it just couldn't get to the
bearing. I doubt that the crank is actually tipped in the casesfrom the centerline of the crank to the deck height is different. but the crank has the
same centerline through the crank halves.Good luck with the factory.
Garret