The Future of 2 Strokes Once And For All

[mxracer851]

Alright heres my question, What is going on with all this bs I keep hering about companies stopping production of 2 strokes in the near furture? I ask this question because I just bought a new 2005 yz125 and I love it and on I smoke 4 strokes on weekly basis at the local track in the 125cc B class. I dont see why companies would stop production of these great bikes. Any info is welcome.

 

[wornknobby]

maybe because of emmissions :coocoo: :bang:

just don't stop riding them, they'll never go away :)
at one of the tracks here many people went to 4-strokes, but i don't understand why they sold their new 2-smoke for a 4-stroke cause i can still beat them :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Dirtbikehunter7]

2-smokes are bad on emissions so the government got on our tail about alot of BS. Everybody started working on 4 stroke technology to get them up to spec like 2strokes. I personally have an 02 yz 250 and i'm a BIG fan of the 2 stroke. But I hear its close to the end of the line for em. The government is a biatch eh? And yeah I stomp thumpers all the time. Hopefully something changes and they stick around. i believe they are already banned in cali.

Hunter

 

[James Dean]

I'm not giving up on 2-strokes. As long as they are available, I'll keep buying them. More than anything, if they move off the showroom floor, manufacturers will keep making 2-stroke dirt bikes.

The big problem is that there are so many choices and 2-stroke sales are dropping. The 250F's and 450F's (and quads) have been cutting into the market.

Supply and demand will decide what models survive.

James

 

[CalisBestCR250]

I'm not trendy enough to ride a 4 stroke.

 

[Kav]

Supply and demand will decide what models survive.

I think that about sums it up.

 

[gonzo843]

And unfortunatly I think people are more interested in what's the new cool thing rather than what might work best for them. I know I was and that's why I rode 4-strokes for a while. Now I am a full pinger and couldnt be happier.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Yes, two-stroke dirtbikes have fallen out of favor with the OEM's because of emissions. But truth be told the clean answer to the 2S emission problem is the direct-injection two-stroke (DI2S) engine.

The popularity of four-stroke dirtbikes has more to do with marketing than anything else. At the end of the 1990's, sales of 2S bikes had reached a plateau and it would have been difficult for the OEM's to move riders (buyers) from the current two-strokes to DI2S bikes. So they introduced powerful four stroke bikes to the buying public. As soon as the market is flooded with 4S bikes and sales begin to tapper off, the next "new thing" will be the 2S engine.

Two-stroke dirtbikes will come back in a big way. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Chili]

Supply and demand will decide what models survive.

I agree with the exception that the current AMA rules have created a situation where if you race in the 125 class you have a choice to race a four stroke or be at a disadvantage.

 

[Studboy]

The current AMA rules should be modified to allow up to 150's in the 125 class to at least make it a little more comparable.

 

[Micahdawg]

I really don't know what the two stroke future will bring. I don't know what legislation could ban the use of a two stroke for "race applications". Meaning if you guys race MX, GNCC, hare scrambles, etc.... then you damn well better be able to still use a two stroke unless rules ban their use. Think about all the drag cars and other race cars that don't meet up to emissions, but parts are still offered for them and their existance is allowed because they are for racing purposes only.

Someone in this thread said that some people are interested in the "latest and greatest". I think this is a big part. Some of my friends just HAD to have the fastest bike period. If you strapped a CBR900 motor on a YZ frame they would buy it. Then other friends don't even do so much as change oil in their bikes so stuff like changing plugs and doing top end rebuilds are big inconveniences for them. They just want to pour gas in a bike and ride it until something breaks. One guy in particular blew a fork seal in his 04 YZ250F. I asked what he did to fix it and he said, "Well, it stopped leaking." ?!?!?!?!

Micah

 

[keithb7]

If 2 strokes were banned today, there are an enormous number of great bikes out there that can satisfy most of us for years to come. The Honda 250 motor is so numerous over the years that there
would be several companies making parts for a long time. Might not be the lastest greatest fastest bike in a few more years but, pick any Japanese motocross designed 250 from any year in the last decade and you will still kick some major 4-stoke butt. 2 stokes will be around for years to come, even if manufacturers stop selling new models this year. In my opinion of course. All depends on your individual needs. Look at the all 500 2 strokes you still see out at the sand dunes. Classic machines.
Will be used in that purpose for years. Keith

 

[biglou]

See, that's the thing, no one is banning anything. People just keep repeating that until it is taken as gospel. Two strokes aren't being banned by any entity. It's the emissions restrictions that are tightening for use on public lands. Doesn't matter if it's a 2stroke or an 8stroke. And there are giant loopholes and exemptions. Then again, who wants to read the legislation and inform themselves? Easier to just keep typing the same old rehashed half-truth crap on message boards. It's like if people keep saying it enough times, it will become true...

 

[biglou]

Then other friends don't even do so much as change oil in their bikes so stuff like changing plugs and doing top end rebuilds are big inconveniences for them. They just want to pour gas in a bike and ride it until something breaks. One guy in particular blew a fork seal in his 04 YZ250F. I asked what he did to fix it and he said, "Well, it stopped leaking." ?!?!?!?!

Micah

These are the same rocket scientists that will be on the boards crying because it cost them $1500 "to do a top end" on their four stroke.

 

[KX02]

See, that's the thing, no one is banning anything. People just keep repeating that until it is taken as gospel. Two strokes aren't being banned by any entity. It's the emissions restrictions that are tightening for use on public lands. Doesn't matter if it's a 2stroke or an 8stroke. And there are giant loopholes and exemptions. Then again, who wants to read the legislation and inform themselves? Easier to just keep typing the same old rehashed half-truth crap on message boards. It's like if people keep saying it enough times, it will become true...

I agree with what you are saying Lou, but think about this. Since the AMA is definitely stacking the deck against 2 strokes, almost the whole 125 class is four stroke. Less demand equals less willingness by the factories to continue to manufacture and develop 2 strokes.

 

[gwcrim]

I'm not trendy enough to ride a 4 stroke.

Yeah, me neither. :joke:

Lou, take a pill. It's the internet. If we can't pass half truths and bold face lies here, we'll have to go back to hanging out at low rent bars and drinking! ;)

 

[biglou]

Not on my watch, Crim! (j/k)

KX-See my post in the Thumper forum. The rule "wasn't" unfair, until the technology/funding/development made it that way, if that makes any sense. The rule was there for quite a while, just no one bothered with it. I agree, that to level the playing field, the 2s should be allowed to bump up displacement. The thing is, the factories and their race teams don't really have any great reasons to do so. Sure, people can still race 2strokes on closed courses (and whatever other exemptions there are), but why develop products in a potentially narrowing market? Once every pro 125 class rider is on a 250F, it kinda becomes a moot point all the way around. Now no one is at a disadvantage (in the pro ranks), and also, why bother developing the 2s anymore? Luckily, it looks like at least a couple of the big 5 are still putting some effort into them.

 

[simimi]

From way out here in California new 2S can only be ridden in state parks during winter months, they get a Red Sticker. The new WRF450 four Stroke is now a green sticker for all year riding. Hard to buy a new bike for trail riding with a red sticker. Also, at the SF SX a couple of weeks ago, 19 of the 20 riders in the 125 main were on 4 strokes.

I think they will continue 2S for many years, but seems like the development is in the 4S.

Mike

 

[viking20]

No need to up the capacity of the 2-strokes......Just limit the capacity of the 4 strokes to 225 and 400 cc. Either that , or let the bikes run in different classes.....The BIG trouble in all this is that the different organisations seems to dance along in order to kill the 2 stroke. For the last many , many years over here it hasnt been possible to run a 2-stroke outside of a Moto-x track anyway...And let me remind you , that many places outside the US , the price difference between 2 and 4 stroke bikes , and parts , is HUGE !
And the noise.........Big problem there , too....

 

[jmics19067]

"I agree with what you are saying Lou, but think about this. Since the AMA is definitely stacking the deck against 2 strokes, almost the whole 125 class is four stroke. Less demand equals less willingness by the factories to continue to manufacture and develop 2 strokes."

The AMA didn't stack up rules against the two strokes. Like Lou said those rules were there for just about forever. It is the manufacture's finally coming up with technology that makes that rule obsolete. Again like Lou said two strokes are not illegal but it is illegal for a manufacture to sell a vehicle that does not comply to EPA standards for non-closed course racing applications.

It was apparantly easier for manufactures to turn a profit, using existing four stroke technology to being legal and/or competitive than to create new technology/manufacturing for the two strokes.

Two strokes motorcycles engines being the ultimate in simplistic design/manufacturing and power to weight ratio will lose a lot of their benefits trying to use conventional methods to comply with EPA.

I wonder what happened to Honda's Radical Active designed two stroke they made way back when.Also if I remember right their prototype was about 400cc to get the power out of a normal 250. :think:

 

[Lissa]

I'm with you Lou on what you said...
I'm not sure how many of you will remember the start of the current 4str craze. Prior to the YZF400, from time to time a off-beat manfacture or custom builder would create a really cool custom 4str MXer that would make it into he mags. No one thought differently because no one could afford it or would consider buying such a obscure bike. Everything else 4str at the time was foo-foo trail bikes. Then came the '96 XR400. This big air-cooled behemoth grew to be quite popular for all kinds of task, including MX. Not that this bike was comparable to any 2str's of that time but it had a place in the 4str class along side the high dollar Husabergs and others. Yamaha saw this and went ahead and did what no other manufacture saw coming. They took the Honda idea one step further and built a 4str not for trails, but for actual MX out the box. Was it as competitive as the current crop of 2str, maybe not. It definetly had a weight disadvantage but the potential and idea was there for all to follow. Yamaha devolped the YZF as a choice, something different to offer on the showroom floor. Since it was being offered by a major manufacture with a strong dealer network, customers wouldn't be scared of purchasing the new bike. If Yamaha had never hatched the production 4str MXer, things might be quite different right now. Who knows how long it would have taken the other manufactures to even consider changing their tune. At that time there was no threat of emissions regulations and for most of us now there still aren't any. If most people actually read the rule proposal they would understand that 2str's for most applications will not be affected. Instead of the so called .49 total of emmissions we create as a whole (2str and 4str {epa}, another case of picking on the small and quiet) the new wave of 4str machines create enough noise emmissions to piss every neighbor off in a one mile radius. As long as we keep purchasing 2str's they will not go anywhere. As a clue to our local purchasing habits, I've sold four times as many 2str compared to 4str this year. Go figure.

 

[KX02]

Wow Lissa, that is really surprising to hear you are selling so many two strokes! Could you give a little break down in terms of 125v250f 250v450f etc?

 

[biglou]

Going back a few posts, make the 2's bigger or make the 4's smaller, that's what I meant. Six of one...

It's funny, when the rule was implemented (for whatever reason-to promote development maybe?), everyone was like, "sure, ok, whatever". Now that the seemingly impossible has been done, peoples are crying foul! And for the record, I'm not a 2stroke hater by any stretch. I love dirtbikes across the board.

 

[Micahdawg]

What I don't want to see is a situation where it has to be one or the other. I prefer 2s, but I like 4s just fine. I don't want to see either of them cease production. Extra options are always a good thing.

Micah

 

[XRpredator]

. . . Now that the seemingly impossible has been done, peoples are crying foul! And for the record, I'm not a 2stroke hater by any stretch. I love dirtbikes across the board.

I am, and there's no stretch.

There was no whining at all when the ATK's and the hand built XR's were out there trying their hand at it. But as soon as Yamaha (then the rest) dumped some money into development. Now everyone is whining like the whiney whiners they are. Two strokes were the laughingstock for many moons back in the day, until CZ and Husky, and later Suzuki made them what begat today's 2 stroke, with half the cc's. Now the cycle is back the other way. The pendulum will swing again. (I've run out of cliches)

and 2 strokes still suck.