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Working Out Part II

JG

Super Power AssClown
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#1
for some reason I couldn't post a reply to the other thread.

racerx,
    I take 1000mg of Vitamin C & 400IU of Vitamin E twice a day, 12 hours apart. These two vitamins are very strong antioxidants that support your body under stresses such as hard traning.
   Creatine is a good suppement, but some people have trouble digesting it and end up with diarhea. It will add aproximatley 4-5% to you toatl body weight. If you do decide to take it, use 5 grams a day, everyday. No loading phase is needed, despite what some people may say. Be sure to take it on an empty stomach with 8 ounces of grape juice. Grape juice is very high glycemic(raise blood sugar rapidly) and cause your body to secrete insulin, which shuttles creatine to the muscles. Also, be sure to take it directly after your workout when your body will absorb it better. Insulin is also a very anabolic hormone, so 8 ounces of the grape juice after your workout will be an added plus

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-John
99'RM300
Blackwood, N.J.
 
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#2
My theory is, just train hard and eat lots of meat and ride whenever possible
  
 
#3
OK thanks for all your help JG! I will try it out and let you know the results later down the road!


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    -racerx
     99YZ125
     West Virginia
 
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#4
I can't help but throw my two cents in here because this is a topic I really enjoy.  All the research points to loading creatine at .45/gm per kilo (2.20) of bodyweight for about 5 days, and maintenance doses at .22gm / kilo of bodyweight for about 8-10 weeks at which point your system is saturated and it's worth taking about 3 weeks off to get yourf system to need creatine again. Once you start back up the .22gm per kilo of bodyweight dosage is sufficient. So a 220 pound guy (100 kilos) would load at 45gm/day for 5 days and then switch to 22 gm /day . The main reason 5gm is used as a dosage is because that's about the biggest dose most people can tolerate without getting stomach problems. Having tried numerous loading / maintenance protocols on myself and a number of lifters and hockey players since Creatine first showed up years ago, I can assure you the research is dead on ACCURATE with the dosages. 5mg is nice, but no where near effective. There is no evidence to suggest that taking creatine with carbs or on an empty stomach has any extra effect, and frankly taking creatine on an empty stomach is a good way to make yourself sick. Abusing your stomach lining is a BAD idea.

While John is right that insulin is the mechanism that drives carbs, water and creatine into the muscle site, the concept of a "window of opportunity" after your workout has been debunked by any number of experts in the field. In short it's a bunch of BULLSHIT. While grape juice will most definitely give you a rise in insulin, and insulin is defintiely an anabolic hormone, it's more complicated than that. When your blood sugar rises with a sudden intake of fast (high glycemic) carbs your system secretes insulin to lower blood sugar and drive those carbs into the muscle site. All good things, but once those muscles are full insulin has the NASTY habit of feeding fat cells until it's happy with your blood sugar level. In other words you get FAT. Everyone reacts differently to this process, but one thing that seems to be universally true is that your reaction to insulin gets worse as you age, so rapid insulin spikes tend to make you fat and sluggish. Your brain can't store carbs, so if insulin drops your blood sugar too low (hypoglycemia effects)it makes you really stupid and judgement impaired. The only way too know for sure how you react to carbs like this is to use a glucometer like the diabetics use. My fingers routinely look like pin cushions from this type of testing but at least I know what works for me
  Unfortuntely this is one of those areas where your reaction could be totally different than someone the exact size, age and weight as you, so paying attention to how you react is worth the effort.

A far more usefull way to drive carbs into your muscles is by using a glucose disposal agent like Vanydl Sulfate. Vanydl has effects similar to insulin without the negative side effects. It helps to maintain a very even insulin and blood sugar level throughout the day, which controls your appetite, and minimizes carb cravings and binge eating. Eating highly soluble proteins with high carb meals will also help drive carbs without excessive insulin, although in my case I've found that large amounts of highly soluble protein by themselves causes an insulin spike in me. From what I've seen it's more common than I would have originally thought.

Creatine and Vanydl Sulfate in combination is the safest, most effective combination I have ever seen. Controlling your insulin is a nice side benefit.  If your are training REALLY hard it's well worth the expense.

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Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
rich@dirtrider.net www.eric-gorr.com

<p align=right>01-11-2000 :Edited
 

JG

Super Power AssClown
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#5
Oh boy, here we go.


Well, I don't buy into the 45 gram a day load up phase for&nbsp;&nbsp;220lb guy. And secondly I still FIRMLY believe that creatine is absorbed better with a High glycemic carb.

When I first started taking creatine, I took the recomended 20 gram a day load phases for a week. Guess what...I didn't gain ANYTHING, just alot of dissapointment. I gave up creatine for a while until I read new research about high glycemic carbs & creatine takin together. Well, again, I did the 20 grm/week loading phase....but this time I gained 12lbs. The only difference was the addition of a high glycemic carb. I had gotten off creatine for 6 months, and decided to try it again. This time no loading phase, just 5 grams with 8 Ounces of grape juice a day, everyday.....Guess what, gained 12lbs in 2 weeks. It took me a week longer to reach my peak weight, but I gained the exactly the same amount of weight as I did when I took 20 grams a day.
Therefor, I believe no loading phase is needed, and 5 grams a day is sufficient.
And there has been studies that show that creatine works better with carbs.

The only way people are going to abuse their stomach lining, is to take that 45 grams a day.

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-John
99'RM300
Blackwood, N.J.
 
- a d v e r t i s e m e n t -

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#6
Like I said earlier everyone reacts differently, but the peer reviewed literature clearly shows the loading phase is the most effective way to start, and 5 gm isn't enough for anyone but a fairly small person. After trying creatine with about 60 athletes and talking to hundreds of powerlifters at major competitions over the years I'll continue to recommend the dosages I suggested.&nbsp;&nbsp;I've seen the "literature" that claims that carbs make creatine more effective. It reminds me of the FMF stuff in Dirt Rider, nothing but people trying to sell you overpriced creatine with "magic carbs". Real research is peer reviewed in an attempt to minimize the "commercial" aspects of skewing facts to prove a marketing point. IN this type of literature it's fairly clear that creatine is processed the same with or without carbs mixed with it assuming the person is not carb deficient in the first place.

John, if you're getting good results stick with it, but assuming thaty the way you reacted once is the way you'll always react is a bit short sighted.



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Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
rich@dirtrider.net
www.eric-gorr.com
 

WoodsRider

Sponsoring Member<BR>Club Moderator
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#7
Why not just throw in a good daily dose of Dyanabol (anabolic steroids) just to make you really big, stupid and impotent, and don't forget the cancerous side effects.&nbsp;&nbsp;Truthfully though, I have absolutely no knowledge about Creatine other than it's a performance enhancement product.&nbsp;&nbsp;Over 10 years ago I worked out with three guys at the gym and we took amino acids (Arginine and Ornithine, I think) for performance enhancement.&nbsp;&nbsp;Back then we all wanted to be bigger and bench press a Buick.&nbsp;&nbsp;Two of the guys started taking steroids even though they knew the dangers.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, they got big, but the last I heard one of them lost a testicle to cancer which was traced back to his steroid use.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm not saying Creatine has any of the same health risks as steroids, but when steroids were first developed none of the health risks, associated with their use, were known.&nbsp;&nbsp;Heck, back in the 1920's bicycle racers thought cigarette smoking helped to increase lung capacity.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Obviously John and Rich have done their homework and believe in using Creatine (although they do differ in the method of use).&nbsp;&nbsp;Creatine seems to be the performance enhancement product to take right now.&nbsp;&nbsp;Just go to any GNC store and see how many 15 to 25 year-olds are buying this stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMO a couple of years from now another product will come along that will claim to be safer and better than Creatine, backed up by tons of scientific data no doubt.&nbsp;&nbsp;Of course there will be all the labratory reports saying Creatine causes blah blah and has been linked to blah blah blah.&nbsp;&nbsp;Personally I believe these products give the user a mental edge which helps to enhance performance...this is sometimes referred to as "unlocking your potential"&nbsp;&nbsp;If you don't believe me, ask a swimmer whose ever shaved down (head, legs, arms).&nbsp;&nbsp;It's a psychological thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;The key component in any athletic training regimen is a balanced diet, plenty of water and regular aerobic and anaerobic exercise.&nbsp;&nbsp;
 
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#8
If you do a search on a medical database like Medline you'll find creatine research that dates back about 60 years. It's generally regarded as safe by knowledgable researchers, but it would be foolish for anyone to assume that everything about long term high dosage use is already known. I guess we'll see over time.

It is pretty funny to see 15 year olds buying it. The natural hormone profile in the average 15 year old would put the steroid assay of a pro athelte to shame.
 
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#9
woodsrider,
having been a world class swimmer (and a hairy ape according to my wife) i can tell you that shaving down can be of great benifit both physically and mentally.&nbsp;&nbsp;depending on the person it really varies on that ratio.&nbsp;&nbsp;i saw a small study done by the USS (usa swimming org at the flume in colorado springs olympic training center) that showed the removal of the body hair was hydrodynamically benificial to THAT person.&nbsp;&nbsp;it was a very small test.

there are also many papers currently out that show creatine to do nothing for a person.&nbsp;&nbsp;actually one report i read showed that the guys NOT on it did better than the ones that were on it.

here is my take.&nbsp;&nbsp;each one of us is different.&nbsp;&nbsp;something that works for me may or may not work for you or ANY other human on the planet.&nbsp;&nbsp;period.&nbsp;&nbsp;i've been a test subject for the the NCAA, the SWC, the U of California at Irvine (ever had a muscle biopsey done to determine muscle composition?&nbsp;&nbsp;i have), the U of Arkansas (study on caffeine for performance) and the USS for studies on body compostion, blood glucos, VO2, lactic acid build up, heart rate, lung efficency, lung volume, energy generated, energy consumed and probably a whole bunch of stuff i don't even know about.&nbsp;&nbsp;i was also a test subject for a company that produced drink mixes (High Carbo and Water Replacement - Ross Labs) that was used in our training.&nbsp;&nbsp;nobody re-acts the same, because nobody IS the same.&nbsp;&nbsp;

at the time we did out biopseys, the world record holder for the women's 50m free was determined to have more slow twitch (red) fiber than fast twitch (white) fiber in her legs.&nbsp;&nbsp;this is usually indicitive of a long distance person instead of a sprinter that Dara Torres was.

now there is a whole new world of products that we never dreamed of when i was competing.&nbsp;&nbsp;choose wisely, you may have to live with the effects for the rest of your life.

Steve Unruh - v29 tchss
2 time National Champion and Record Holder - 1979
National Champion - 1981
USA Jr Team Member (USA vs USSR) - 1984
check out http://www.usswim.org&nbsp;&nbsp;in the top 16/100 listing for me.&nbsp;&nbsp;both short course and long course 11-12, 13-14 and 15-16 for my credentials.
 
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#10
Steve is right. Power athletes are the only ones that have consistently shown real results with creatine. My 200 meter sprint times (~11 seconds) improved on the velodrome with creatine, but it didn't help my kilo time (about 7 times longer than a sprint), and the additional bodyweight I carried may have been a hinderance. Most of the longer distnace athletes have been fairly unimpressed by it, which makes sense when you look at the mechanism it is trying to feed. It's a great supplement for power lifters and match sprinters (the things I have competed in), but it is of dubious value to Motocrossers, and frankly I think the additional water that needs to be transported in your system via the creatine process puts you at MUCH greater risk of cramping on the hot days. I went back and forth over the summer on this and found the no creatine periods to be much less cramp prone. This could be an isolated case, but in talking to my bike racer friends most of them bailed out early on testing it for similar reasons.

I doubt that I'll be using it in the summer this year becuase I don't really care what my 200 meter time is anymore




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Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
rich@dirtrider.net
www.eric-gorr.com
 
- a d v e r t i s e m e n t -

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#11
SUnruh - Wow, sounds like you're a crash test dummy. Seriously though, I am interested in hearing the results of the Caffeine / performance test results. I drink way too much coffee. Yes I know its a diuretic (sp) and everyone says its not good for you but!!!!!
 
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#12
richie,
first, you do realize that caffeine is a BANNED substance by the IOC (international olympic committe) don't you?&nbsp;&nbsp;it is.&nbsp;&nbsp;sure, you have to drink like 400 cups of coffee to get that level, but it is on the banned list.&nbsp;&nbsp;guess why?

yes, it is a diruretic, but it is clearly a stimulant.&nbsp;&nbsp;it is under the stimulants heading on the banned list.

here is why:
the caffeine test that i did was injected directly into the blood stream via a cathater (can't spell it).&nbsp;&nbsp;we rode a stationary bike for 30 minutes during this test.&nbsp;&nbsp;data was gathered from a EKG, VO2 mask and blood samples as well for lattic acid and other profiles.&nbsp;&nbsp;in every test subject that was used, the abilities of the subject were enchanced in some way.&nbsp;&nbsp;typically it was greater endurance or more power or both.&nbsp;&nbsp;personally, i didn't feel any different than i did the 3 days prior when we did the baseline test run, but the data clearly showed that everyone was performing (muscle wise) at a much greater efficiency.&nbsp;&nbsp;now, afterward, i didn't feel as tired, but maybe that was mental and not physical?&nbsp;&nbsp;don't know.&nbsp;&nbsp;trying to sleep that night was very hard.&nbsp;&nbsp;we were wired BIG time!&nbsp;&nbsp;the test clearly showed WHY the IOC should ban caffeine in larger than coffee drinkable levels.

as far as being a guinie pig, yep i was.&nbsp;&nbsp;i was very interested in knowing how well my body performed and being on the teams that i was on and the caliber of swimmer i was, i had the chance to be in a lot of tests.&nbsp;&nbsp;um, if you don't have to ever do a biopsey, DON'T!&nbsp;&nbsp;taking a core muscle sample out of your thigh 3 inches in is NO FUN!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;at one of the training camps i was at, they took blood samples (for lattic acid tests) after every 200 meter swim on a set of 10.&nbsp;&nbsp;the tips of my fingers were black and blue from all the pricks (even with the gun style) and only my index finger on my right hand and that thumb didn't have any holes in it.&nbsp;&nbsp;picking up stuff was hard cause it hurt so much from the pricks.&nbsp;&nbsp;my coach, (mark schubert, now at USC) held to the theories of lattic acid saturation training.&nbsp;&nbsp;basically, this entails getting the muscles into heavy lattic acid build up and then continuing to work at hard levels for extended periods of time.&nbsp;&nbsp;i cannot remember a single person who did not improve under his coaching.&nbsp;&nbsp;sure, some took longer than others, but everyone did better.&nbsp;&nbsp;in 1984 he had 7 (i think that is correct) members of his own team make the US Olympic team and 6 others make Olympic teams for other countries.&nbsp;&nbsp;the two people i primarly trained with brought home 3 golds and 1 silver.&nbsp;&nbsp;if you ever get the chance to see an Olympic gold medal up close, do so.&nbsp;&nbsp;they are AWESOME!&nbsp;&nbsp;makes your heart race just holding one.

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Steve Unruh - V29 TCHSS
98yz250, 81yz125, 77yz80
 
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#13
Steve wrote&nbsp;&nbsp;
first, you do realize that caffeine is a BANNED substance by the IOC (international olympic committe) don't you?&nbsp;&nbsp;it is.&nbsp;&nbsp;sure, you have to drink like 400 cups of coffee to get that level, but it is on the banned list.
Caffeine suppositories will also get you over the IOC permissable limit fairly easily.



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Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
rich@dirtrider.net
www.eric-gorr.com
 

WoodsRider

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#14
I was also a competitive swimmer back in high school and through two years of college.&nbsp;&nbsp;I competed in the 200 and 500 free as well as a relay sprinter.&nbsp;&nbsp;I shaved my legs for the 1983 regional meet and dropped close to 0.8 seconds off my best time in the 50 free (200 medley relay).&nbsp;&nbsp;A year later I made it to state in the 400 free relay and 50 free.&nbsp;&nbsp;This time I did the entire body shave with a buzz-cut on top.&nbsp;&nbsp;Dropped 0.3 seconds off my best 50 free time and a whopping 1.1 seconds off my best 100 free time.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, my coefficient of drag was a tad lower, but most of this improvement was mental.

I have never been a physical fitness expert.&nbsp;&nbsp;For several years I lifted weights without any aerobic activity.&nbsp;&nbsp;I went from 175 lbs. to 230 lbs. with just over 10% body fat.&nbsp;&nbsp;I quit lifting for a couple of years and lost 20 lbs. but my body fat rose to 27%.&nbsp;&nbsp;Since then I've been working out regularly.&nbsp;&nbsp;I do cardio work (running, biking, swimming) for 30 minutes and resistance training for 30 minutes 3 to 4 days a week.&nbsp;&nbsp;The biggest benefit is I can eat almost anything I want and my weight stays right at 200 lbs.&nbsp;&nbsp;

As far as using supplements, buyer beware.&nbsp;&nbsp;Rich stated, the long term effects of using creatine have not been fully evaluated.&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be completely harmless but, as Steve stated, some testing has shown it provides absolutely no benefit.&nbsp;&nbsp;Creatine can't be cheap.&nbsp;&nbsp;I remember dropping a $100 at the vitamin store back in '86 for supplements to make myself bigger and stronger.&nbsp;&nbsp;Then the trainer at the gym told me I could get the same benefits if I ate a balanced diet rather than chasing pills with a hamburger, fries and a coke.&nbsp;&nbsp;Besides, I'd rather spend the money on a new bike or at least upgrades for my current bike.