XR400R Bent valves

[DougTx]

All,

Took my XR400 I boght this summer (2002 model) in for service. Carb cleaning, Valve adjustment, etc.

They called me yesterday and told me that the vlaves are bent but there is no damage to the top end. They are looking at prices now to replace the valves.

Since there are in there what should I have them look at also? I mean it is apart.

I just want my bike to be solid, I hate to take the precious little time away I can to rid ean have the bike flake on me. I am ready to rid enad have fun and want the bike to do the same?

Any questions I should be asking, thinking of or advice?

Thanks

 

[XRpredator]

was it running when you took it in? Not sure about them being bent . . .

anyhoo, if you are going to get them replaced, I'd think you'd want to get some stainless valves. They should last forever. I think you have to make sure you have heavy enough springs, though, to make sure they'll close those heavier valves in high-rev situations.

 

[DougTx]

Was it running?

Yeah it ran fine honestly... I was kinda curious about that. He said the intake was really tight and the exhaust was really lose.

Any thoughts for a good source on stainless valves?

Thanks for the help...

 

[Matt90GT]

Unless they did a leak down test on the bike, I would start questioning their work very seriously.

also if a valve is "really" tight, it will be almost impossible to start the bike and it will not want to idle. Ask them the measurements they took on the valves and what the specs are. Bet you they dont know either answer there!

If the valves are bent how do they know there is not top end damage? Did they remove the head and inspect the cylinder, piston, valve seats and guides? Did they check the valves on a flat surface to see if they are bent????

Just cause the valves need adjustment does not mean they are bent. Who knows what service work has been done before on the bike. someone might have adjusted the valves 180* out causing the problem.

Here is my advice, tell them to adjust your valves to spec, take the bike and never take it back to that shop. from the sound of things, it sounds like they are try to pad winter work at your expense

 

[Ol'89r]

A motorcycle with bent valves will not run. You may have had a tight valve and a loose valve but it the valves were actually bent, the bike wont' run. I would ask to see the bent valves before they do any more work on the bike. An engine with even one bent valve will not have enough compression to start.

Roll the valve stem on a flat table and check the valve head. If it is obviously bent, ask the mechanic why it ran when you brought it in?

I think they are trying to pull a fast one on you. :nod:

If you don't feel right about the answers you are getting from the mechanic, I would find another shop.

You don't need stainless valves for a XR400. Not sure if they are even available. The standard steel valves and spring kit are sufficient if you are not running a cam.

While you are in there, you will want to replace the valve guide seals and possibly the valve guides. Also, have them check the piston and bore for wear and replace the rings.

Whoever you have do the work, make sure they have the proper equipment to grind the valve seats and lap-in the valves. There is a lot more to a good valve job than just replacing the valves.

Now, would also be a good time to add a camshaft if you want a little more power. A cam is a fairly inexpensive way to improve your power. Hot Cam, Web-Cam, Megacycle cams, all good cams.
A torque grind is a good addition to a XR400.

Just my $ .02

 

[DougTx]

More information on the "Bent" Valves

Ok,

The service manager is back in an explained to me that the guy who was reading back to me the notes was not reading what was going on (service manager was out yesterday)

He says the valves are not at all bent... they are worn, said the seats are worn also and that it appears it is just from wear. He asked the tech to pull the top end off an have a look. He said that the valve seat had worn and that the valve had "sucked up into the head" or some description like that. He said only two of the valves were bad but there is no reason to do that much labor to get that far and replace just two.

He reccomended a top end redo, said the bike was 7 years old (true) and that it was worn from what appeared to be from use (no failures, just wear).He also said I was more than welcome to come by and he would show me the measurements and the specs and were the wear is (in fact he encouraged me to).

He is quoting me parts and labor to replace valves, piston, ring, lap-in (I am sure I am leaving parts of this out) and also said that he is going to inspect the cam for wear and told me that if it is ok, it is ok. If not he would replace that also.

Man I am not feeling to good right now. I am not doubting the bike was ridden but was hoping it was not bad enough to warrant this. I took it in thinking I was giong to be responsible with the bike and get the carb re-done and the valves adjusted so I cold take care of it and keep it running well.

It is really odd because the bike diplayed no real sign of problems to me. He said once they adjusted the valves and started it and rode it that it was "noisey" and when they went back to check he could not even get the feeler in on the intake valve.

I hate that I do not know more. This dealership has a pretty good reputation and works on some bikes for friends but honestly I am aware of my limitations and do not know enough to call BS or accept this as truth.

I feel kind of stupid. Now I am wondering what to do about the bike. It is in really good shape and I guess buying another used bike answers nothing but maybe putting myself back in a similar situation. Then again I hate to put $1k in a complete top end, cam etc to get it back togeather when I doubt the bike is worth more than $1500.

If I had the money I would just put it baack togeather and be done with it and buy a new one but I reall can't afford the CRF450X that I want (it is so great, but soo expensive) and I am to the point now where I don't even want to think about another used bike and unless I fix this one it is not worth anything and I wold not want to just put it back togeather and sell it because that is dishonest and I hate to do that to someone else and put them through this (sorry but I believe in Karma or whatever you call it). All of the warnings I got on bying a used 4 stroke here it seems have come true to a certain degree.

Anyway... I am not sure what to do now.... they are holding on to the bike while I think about it... I just got off the phone with him...he seems really sincere and was trying to encourage me to not be upset. He said XR400R is a super bike and that $1000 to $1200 would buy at least another large number of years just like the original setup did and that this is a part of not motorcycles necessarily but dirt bikes more. Also he pointed out that $1000 is better than $6k for a new one especially based on how I ride (he took about 20 minutes talking to me about this and asked some good questions to make sure that I was re-building a bike that was good for me and not re-building a bike that I would not re-coup my money from and also not be happy on) but that he would let me decide and there was no rush.

I am at a loss here.... man I just wanted to ride.... crap...

 

[XRpredator]

I'll have to agree that if you get the top end done on that bike you'll definitely get a lot of years out of it. And I'd say it's at least a $2000 bike.

 

[Matt90GT]

Ok,

The service manager is back in an explained to me that the guy who was reading back to me the notes was not reading what was going on (service manager was out yesterday)

He says the valves are not at all bent... they are worn, said the seats are worn also and that it appears it is just from wear. He asked the tech to pull the top end off an have a look. He said that the valve seat had worn and that the valve had "sucked up into the head" or some description like that. He said only two of the valves were bad but there is no reason to do that much labor to get that far and replace just two.

He reccomended a top end redo, said the bike was 7 years old (true) and that it was worn from what appeared to be from use (no failures, just wear).He also said I was more than welcome to come by and he would show me the measurements and the specs and were the wear is (in fact he encouraged me to).

He is quoting me parts and labor to replace valves, piston, ring, lap-in (I am sure I am leaving parts of this out) and also said that he is going to inspect the cam for wear and told me that if it is ok, it is ok. If not he would replace that also.

ok so he said the valve seats are worn. I do NOT see any replacement of them in this write up you have given so far. That is done by a machine shop - doubtful they have the machinery in the shop. So again, more BS there.

Man I am not feeling to good right now. I am not doubting the bike was ridden but was hoping it was not bad enough to warrant this. I took it in thinking I was giong to be responsible with the bike and get the carb re-done and the valves adjusted so I cold take care of it and keep it running well.

It is really odd because the bike diplayed no real sign of problems to me. He said once they adjusted the valves and started it and rode it that it was "noisey" and when they went back to check he could not even get the feeler in on the intake valve.

ok, so if the bike did not have noise before, and now after they have adjusted the valves to spec it has noise? Sounds like someone does not know their head from their 'rear' there. If the one side was so loose, you would have heard it. Like a lifter tick in a car. I would make them re-adjust the valves again there PER the HONDA MANUAL! Not someone's memory or know how.

I hate that I do not know more. This dealership has a pretty good reputation and works on some bikes for friends but honestly I am aware of my limitations and do not know enough to call BS or accept this as truth.

I feel kind of stupid. Now I am wondering what to do about the bike. It is in really good shape and I guess buying another used bike answers nothing but maybe putting myself back in a similar situation. Then again I hate to put $1k in a complete top end, cam etc to get it back togeather when I doubt the bike is worth more than $1500.

If I had the money I would just put it baack togeather and be done with it and buy a new one but I reall can't afford the CRF450X that I want (it is so great, but soo expensive) and I am to the point now where I don't even want to think about another used bike and unless I fix this one it is not worth anything and I wold not want to just put it back togeather and sell it because that is dishonest and I hate to do that to someone else and put them through this (sorry but I believe in Karma or whatever you call it). All of the warnings I got on bying a used 4 stroke here it seems have come true to a certain degree.

Anyway... I am not sure what to do now.... they are holding on to the bike while I think about it... I just got off the phone with him...he seems really sincere and was trying to encourage me to not be upset. He said XR400R is a super bike and that $1000 to $1200 would buy at least another large number of years just like the original setup did and that this is a part of not motorcycles necessarily but dirt bikes more. Also he pointed out that $1000 is better than $6k for a new one especially based on how I ride (he took about 20 minutes talking to me about this and asked some good questions to make sure that I was re-building a bike that was good for me and not re-building a bike that I would not re-coup my money from and also not be happy on) but that he would let me decide and there was no rush.

I am at a loss here.... man I just wanted to ride.... crap...

ok they should have never torn your bike down without your permission! I would insist on that point right there - assume you did not give that OK there. It is their fault to fix the mess. You need to ask specific questions:

Compression PSI - ?
Leak down test - % ?? @ what PSI???
Valve Specs - Intake = ? Exhaust = ?

if your valve seats are worn, you need to replace them. You can lap a valve in, but if they are worn just like anything else they need to be replaced. if not they will create accelerated wear on the valve. You will need to lap in new steel valves to the new seats. Check to be sure they did not write you up for a new cylinder head.

You still need to hold your ground with the shop. To me they are taking you to the bank. If they cannot answer any one of those questions, I would tell them to put the bike back together, get out the honda manual and go step by step to adjust the valves. Walk out with the bike and only pay for a valve adjustment. Dont ever go back.

Now to the other issues you vent about. buying ANYTHING used has its ups and downs. You have found out that not everything is great with used stuff and you better be sure to purchase the bike at the right price just incase you have to do work like this. You can have the same issue with a 2 stroke - seized crank, worn cylinder, bad power valves. But the Honda XR bikes are bullet proof. If it started and ran good, most likely the shop is taking you. As long as they have good clean oil in them, they will run for every with little to no maintenance to them. If they are run with severly old oil or low/no oil, then you will have wear problems first with the cam in the head. it will seize up. So knowing history of working on a lot of XRs through the years, still sounds like someone does not know how to adjust the valves correctly on the bike and they are taking you.

Look on the bright side we are in the middle of a winter storm here in oregon. so no riding for a while since most all the indoor places closed down this last year. So off to the mountain to snowboard. Bikes are in storage for a while

 

[Rich Rohrich]

ok so he said the valve seats are worn. I do NOT see any replacement of them in this write up you have given so far. That is done by a machine shop - doubtful they have the machinery in the shop. So again, more BS there.

Any decent Honda shop would have the standard OEM tools to hand cut the valve seats. The tools are inexpensive and they aren't that difficult to use and get good results on the older XRs.

if your valve seats are worn, you need to replace them.

You can lap valve in, but if they are worn just like anything else they need to be replaced.

You don't replace the valve seats you machine the surface of the seat to match a new valve. This can be done with standard OEM hand tools on an XR.

If you are going to give advice it would be worthwhile to get your facts straight.

It's incredibly rare to wear an XR valve seat to the point of needing to replace it.

Given the age of the bike what the service manager described above is all reasonable. Whether or not it's worth spending the money to fix the bike is another question entirely.

 

[_JOE_]

It sounds legit to me. It's always possible the previous owner ran it with a torn or improperly seated air filter. You probly wouldn't have noticed unless you rode one with a fresh engine. I would think they'd have done a leak down check rather that tearing it down, but what the difference in the end? You still need the valve seal restored so it has to come apart anyway. If I were you I would suck it up and have it done. If you keep up with the air filter and oil changes it will run hundreds of more hours.

 

[jsantapau]

the only thing I have to say is if valve work on a 7 year old xr is enough to make you pucker DO NOT BUY a new race inspired four stroke

 

[DougTx]

XR400R update

I apprecaite all the feedback (at least the constructive stuff)

I am not bitching I promise. Hard to convey emotion in a post but I would describe my feeling as more dissapointed.

I understand that re-builds are part of the bikes. But buying a bike and putting 10-15 hours on it and then requiring $1500-2000 worth of work (depending on what else may be wrong) is a little disheartening. If you can just eat $1000 after buying a bike you were told was in good shape and an independent shop told you the same? I feel good for you, money is not so easy for me.

The manager at the shop called me back. He gave me some good feedback on he bike. He said effectively that depending on what I wanted to do that even if it is $1500 to repair the bike that it would be better than $6500 or so for a new bike or $4000 for a used one that may in fact be the same thing as my bike but in different clothes.

He completly understood that I did not like hearing the news he gave me but then said some thing that surprised me (this conversation was COMPLETELY friendly, never took on a nasty or judgemental tone).

1. They have a used CRF450 up front that they will make a deal on for me, I told him about it , he did not mention to me. I asked him "What would prevent it from being any worse from my bike"? He said they do a pre-purchase instpection including chain adjustment, fluid change, filter change, check and adjust cables etc...but that effectively without looking at the valves or top end work/check that honestly he could not guarentee that that bike is no better than mine. There are way to look and check but ultimately used dirtbikes are a crap shoot.
2. He again offered to have me come lookat what he is telling me about and let me see, I doubt I could discern much but I know a little. He seems to be honest in wanting me to know what was going on with my bike.
3. He says then that he has been at that dealership for years and in the bike business for 30 years and does not want anyone to think poorly of him because in his business that your word is everything because of situations like this. He agreed that it was a tough call on my bike and also understood if I did not want to do it.

Then he told me that his advice to me was he was going to tell the tech to put the thing back togeather, adjust the valves 1 more time and get it running like it was when i came in. He said as much as he wanted that much money run though his department that ultimately it was a lot to invest in the bike. I asked him how much I owed him for the work and he said nothing. I was really shocked. He told me the bike ran when it came in and he will make it running now like it was and that is fine. It has fresh oil and no metal in it and as easy as I ride and putter around that it could certianly run for quite a while (said to me " you are not a racer" and I am not). He said at that point if you have a failure you can decide either to fix it as you need or just part it out or whatever I wanted to do and ride it in the mean time.

I am not sure what to do but seriously, if it was running bad prior to me taking it in I would have never known it. If he was out for money he would have tried to make it off me or charged me some rediculous fee for the diagnostic work. He even offered to try and help me find some aftermarket stuff that may be chaper than Honda factory dealer stuff, better quality and could help with the cost of the rebuild. If he was trying to screw me a tthis point I sure didn't feel it. He seemed concerned and really trying to help me.

I am picking the bike up tomorrow morning with the promise that it will run like when I brought it in (fine in my book but then again who knows). I am then going to take it to an independent mechanic who was recommended by a local parts shop that has been in Dallas since I was a kid. He says the guy is very fair, inexpensive, a little slow getting stuff out because he is always busy but super honest. I am going to take the bike to him and see what he says.

.. I am starring down what to me is a lot of money, I am not bitching, I am just trying to figure out how to make the best situation out of what should have been a $250 dealer visit for responsible maintenance to take care of my bike and am not looking at a bike that may not be worth saving (NADA is like $1650).

For those of you trying to help in your posts, I appreciate it sincerely, I mean I really do.

I hope to see you out there soon, project crappy CR250 is coming along but slow...this was my main bike and the CR was a learning experiement and to teach me to work on bikes ( atually got it to run the other day, I am kinda excited). Now it looks like I am going to learn a lesson on both.

thanks again guys...

 

[Rich Rohrich]

.. I am starring down what to me is a lot of money, I am not bitching, I am just trying to figure out how to make the best situation out of what should have been a $250 dealer visit for responsible maintenance to take care of my bike and am not looking at a bike that may not be worth saving (NADA is like $1650).

The XR engines are very simple and easy to work on. The way to make the best of it is picking up a service manual and doing most of the work yourself. Except for cutting the valves seats (about $100-$125 in labor) , you can do all the work in your garage without any special tools. People do it all the time. :cool:

 

[XRpredator]

clymer makes one helluva good manual.

Honda does too, but it's pretty high budget.

 

[DougTx]

Xr400

I have the Honda Service Manual it came with my bike. I may give it a shot but talk about a steep learning curve.

I have seen compelte sets of factory valves on ebay (new) and Kibblewhite Spring kits.... Wiseco top end kits etc..

I am going to get the bike back and give it a day or so to think about it. I feel like I make better decisions when I think a little instead of just jumping at something.

Thanks for all the help ... I will let ya know...

I guess other than a micrometer to measure tolerances and sizes/wear wht other tools (other than common hand tools) would I need to do the top end on the bike (valves, rings,piston etc....)

 

[_JOE_]

I agree with Rich. You want to learn anyway, so grab a manual and dive in. Find out what what they would charge you to cut the valve seats if you pulled it apart yourself when you pick the bike up. Sounds like you're fortunate to have a helpful, honest shop nearby.

 

[jsantapau]

a torque wrench and feeler gauges

I didn't mean to be rude....I meant to say if you plan on keeping the bike for any real length of time ,the initial cost of the xr and any unplanned or planned maintenace costs will be cheaper than purchasing a new race inspired bike and its aggressive maintenance schedules.

 

[Ol'89r]

The XR engines are very simple and easy to work on. The way to make the best of it is picking up a service manual and doing most of the work yourself. Except for cutting the valves seats (about $100-$125 in labor) , you can do all the work in your garage without any special tools. People do it all the time. :cool:

I agree with Rich 100%.

If you want to learn how to work on your own bikes, this would be a great opportunity for you.

Have the shop reassemble the bike and then take it home and start to take it apart. It would be easier to take the bike home in a box so you don't have to take it apart but, you need to start with a assembled engine so you can learn what goes where.

Start with a CLEAN, well lighted area.

Put the bike up on a block of wood or milk crate so it is stable. Don't try to work on it while it's on the side stand.

Get some trays like microwave food trays to put all of your parts in. Label the trays Chassis, Head, Cylinder, Etc. Put all of your chassis bolts in the Chassis tray and so forth. This keeps the parts in order and makes it easier to find the right parts for the correct part of the engine when you put it back together. You can also use plastic bags for this and label them accordingly.

Take pictures of the engine as you take it apart. This will give you some guidelines (besides your manual) to reassemble the engine. If you don't have a camera, make a sketch on paper.

There are several people on this site that can rebuild your head for you. Just remove the whole head, cylinder and piston and ship the parts to one of us. We can measure the wear and repair it as necessary.

Like Rich said. It's highly unlikely you will need new seats. I have rebuilt many XR400 heads in my shop and have never seen one that needed new seats. The Kibblewhite valves and spring kit is not necessary for an XR400 and never buy a spring kit on Ebay. Many times these are used springs that are repackaged and sold as new.

You can buy parts for your bike at a discount through many of the online dealers. Service Honda is a great source. LAsleeve offers Wisco piston and ring kits and also offer valves and springs. They are excellent quality and priced much less than OEM. If you do the disassembly and assembly labor yourself, you should be able to do the job for under $500.

I wouldn't recommend trading it for a 450. The bike you have is a good solid bike and will last you a long time if you take the time to rebuild it right. Plus you will know what you have when you're done. Don't let yourself get upset. It' just nuts n' bolts. :nod:

Go for it. We will guide you through it. :cool:

 

[junkjeeps]

If it doesn't run well when you get it back and you decide you want to part with it, I'd be willing buy it off of you "as is" as a spare parts bike. If you decide to keep it and need any info/help, let me know as I just did the head on mine about 4 months ago. Keep us posted.

Mark

 

[DougTx]

XR400 - Got it back

Ok I got it back...

It is completely back together and it starts on 1-2nd kick just like before. I can hear the valve ticking for sure like he mentioned.

You know what... I am going to do it myself. If you guys are willing to help me, I have the manual and a clean well lit area in my garage and room to do this. What the hell, it will be be cheaper and way more fun. I rode it up and down the street and other than the ticking it runs fine. Strong to me and no shifting or any other problems at all and it is also setup for someone my weight so far.

So, no running from it... I am going to do it.

I have:

Torque wrench (Ft lb big and inch lb small one)
full set of hand tools and sockets
Sears near by
Harbor freight close also
Work bench
Bright clean area to work
Service Manual from Honda for my year and bike

I need:
*Feeler gauges (any recommendation on brand or type best for my bike or dirt bikes in general?)
What else?

I will start taking it down and am completely open to advice. I will definitely want someone to look at the head for me once it is off to make sure the valve did no damage to head (steel on steel correct or assumption?)

Any advice or thoughts let me know... my e-mail address is thenewfredsanford@yahoo.com so feel free to e-mail me suggestions, pics or anything that may be helpful.

No more running... I am going to fix my own stuff this time (well minus the machine work etc)

Thanks guys... I will keep it going under this thread if that is ok.

Much thanks guys... how bad can I really make it. I have a guy offering to buy my CR250 so I may do that to get some money for the parts.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

This feeler gauge will work really well :
http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/part.php?products_id=444

 

[_JOE_]

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00940804000P
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00940802000P?mv=rr

Since you have one close by, Sears is hard to beat. Hopefully they have some in stock, if not they can usually get them for you pretty quick. Quality is better than Harbor Freight stuff.

I'm sure any one of us will be more than willing to help you out if you need it. Pics are always cool to see!

 

[Ol'89r]

You know what... I am going to do it myself. If you guys are willing to help me, I have the manual and a clean well lit area in my garage and room to do this. What the hell, it will be be cheaper and way more fun.
So, no running from it... I am going to do it.
.

Good for you. :cool:

You will want to use your inch pound torque wrench for the engine parts.

Get yourself an impact driver screwdriver. Harbor freight sells one for about $10.00. This will keep you from stripping the heads of your screws.

When you start to take the engine apart, remove the top rocker cover and take note of the position of your camshaft in relation to your crankshaft. Take a small screwdriver and put it in the sparkplug hole and rotate the engine over until the piston comes up to top dead center. (TDC). The lobes on the camshaft should be pointing down towards the piston. If they are pointing up, rotate the engine one more revolution until they are both pointing down.

Take note of the mark on the crankshaft through the inspection cover. The crank mark should line up with the mark on the case. (Refer to your manual for this.) With the engine on TDC, look at the chain sprocket on the camshaft. Take note of how the marks on the camchain sprocket line up with the head surface. This will help you get an idea of how to line everything up when you reassemble the engine.

When you unbolt the camchain sprocket, be sure not to let it drop down into the cases. Attach a piece of wire to the cam chain so you can retrieve it from the cases when you reinstall the camshaft sprocket.

It's ok to use this thread to ask questions.

 

[jsantapau]

One thing I would do before the excellent advice above is when you tank the tank and seat off cover /seal the carberator and wash/clean everything real well. The amount of times that I thought I had all clean and as soon as I slide of the jug and dirt falls down is lot more numerous then the amount of cuss words I used

 

[DougTx]

XR 400R Update - Looking at options

Ok.

Here are my options as see it.

1. Sell the bike and buy another - this is probably too expensive considering the only bike I think that really fits my need that is not a used bike would be a CRF450X. I love them but even on a deal we are talking $5800 and then TTL for an 08.
2. Repair it myself. This is an attractive idea but I am still a bit nerveous about doing my first ever bike redo on such an expensive piece. I sold me CR250 today to get money to help fund whichever way I go.
3. Farm out the work - A couple board members have offered extensive help and one offered, quite generously, to re-work the parts for me if I ship to him. The price is much more attractive than Honda even worse case so I feel a little better about that.


Last I am considering finding a local shop or mechanic who can do the whole thing and just get me back into shape. Depending on price and timing this may be a way to go if not compltely cost prohibitive.

With that in mind does anyone know of, and would feel comfortable reccomending a mechanic/shop in the North Texas (think Dallas or so) area that would be up to this kind of work who is fair and does solid work?

Any reccomendations wold be much appreciate before I start taking steps one way or the other.

Thanks

Doug