Zerk fitting in swingarm....pictures.

[Tantrum]

Greetings everyone. I decided to do my PM to the swingarm for the first time since I got my 98 220 last April. I have read alot from all of you that it needs to be done at least once a year to be sure that all is well in bearing land. As you will see from the pictures on the link below that most of my bearings are in good shape, except for the main swingarm bearings. Now, I have seen tech tips in articles in magazines and heard for a couple of you that you can drill and tap to place zerks. Since I have the bike apart that is what I plan to do. I have a bunch of good closeup pictures on the link that entails my plans. Just click on the pic's to get a closer picture and twice for a full screen. Give me your advice if you have any and critizism if you dont think it will work.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292149015

Happy New Year
B.

 

[fatty_k]

Looks like it might work but along with the annual greasing that should be done they should also be cleaned out. So if you disassemble the linkage to clean them anyways once a year, you might as well grease them. There was a thread a while back about the same thing: http://dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31051&highlight=zerk+kdx

 

[Jim Crenca]

Any thoughts on what happens to the seals when fresh grease is pushed into zerk fittings? Clearly the grease gun would have enough pressure to get new material in, but will it go to the right places without hurting a seal?

 

[WoodsRider]

Zerk fittings are a double-edged sword. Yes, they make it easy to grease the swingarm and linkage bearings, but how do you know how much grease is in there? You don’t at least not until grease oozes out past the seals. Once the seal is compromised there is a way for water to enter the bearings.

Personally I would rather tear down my suspension twice a year, inspect and grease the bearings. This allows you to see if water has contaminated any of the bearings and you are able to install the correct amount of grease.

 

[canyncarvr]

At least you're trying to get grease to the BEARINGS!

Most 'Greasing made easy' ideas I've seen regarding the swingarm focus on putting a zerk (nipple to you other-world guys) in the pivot bolt.

I've asked over and over, 'How you going to get past the SLEEVES?'...have YET to get any answer whatsoever.

A couple of questions:

Pic46..Going to be able to access these with the swingarm in the bike?

Pic45..Your zerk placement on the unitrack is in the front? Won't you still have to take the thing apart to get to those?

Good luck. It would be nice to be able to shoot some grease in the suspension bearings as easily as lubing the chain!

Now...about the steering stem...................

 

[Tantrum]

Re: At least you're trying to get grease to the BEARINGS!

Originally posted by canyncarvr
I've asked over and over, 'How you going to get past the SLEEVES?'...have YET to get any answer whatsoever.

Pic45..Your zerk placement on the unitrack is in the front? Won't you still have to take the thing apart to get to those?

I guess you havent asked the right person. :D If you review my pics again and look at pic #40, you will see how I plan to do it. I have updated the picture for this. But in my plans, you see that there is no need to go thru the pivot bolt, even though that is a possiblity. You can reach the zerks on the end of the unitrack with a 45 degree zerk.

Woodsrider wrote...
You don’t at least not until grease oozes out past the seals. Once the seal is compromised there is a way for water to enter the bearings.

I had the same thought, so I did alittle research and found an interesting device. Its the same size as a zerk and fits the same way. It is a one way ball valve that only allows flow FROM the point of attachment. So in theory, this will relieve the pressure of grease without blowing the seals.

I am meeting with a guy who owns BBRP here in Bellingham in about 10 minutes to review his technique and I'll get back to you with any new info.

B.

 

[Tantrum]

Alright, heres the deal. I talked with a Brian and BBRP, a reputable proformance bike shop here in Bellingham, and he has done this mod several times. The trick to the pivot bolt mod is to use a carbide tipped bit to bore a 1/8 inch hole into the race in the dead center bewteen the bearings. He also said to drill thru it VERY SLOWLY due to the fact that the bit will blow apart if you use too much force. I plan to get the new bearings and races soon and I will do the mod as soon as I get them. I plan making a web page with pics and a tutorial that walks you thru the whole process for all you that plan on doing this same mod.

As far as the possibility of blowing a seal due to too much grease pressure, Brian has not seen this happen yet. His advice is that when you grease them, to do it slowly without alot of force. Even with normal wear, those seals go bad, and with this mod there will always be grease right at the opening to prevent water intrusion. If you grease it up after every ride, you will force out any water and dirt that could possibly get in there.

There is no reason why you cant inspect your bearings once a year just to be safe, its really easy to pull everything apart. But next time you do this, why not do this mod and give yourself the added security of constant lubrication for mere dollars for parts and a couple of beer drinking fun out in the shop playing with your baby? ;) ;) ;)

Cheers
B.

 

[canyncarvr]

I think you missed the point

It was previously posted 'zerk it' threads that have completely dismissed the fact that with no access THRU the sleeve, you will NOT get grease injected INTO the pivot bolt TO the bearings.

BUT, with your approach (based on your pics) you are going through the swingarm (pic 46)..not through the pivot bolt. I got that the first time.

In which case, what are you drilling holes in the sleeves for? Just to grease the pivot bolt? Do that on your annual take down, and it will be fine.

I'm agreeing with you!!! Not a good idea in that case to tell me I'm not talking to the right person;)

RE: Greasing the swingarm thru the pivot bolt.
With that approach (again, NOT yours), with a hole drilled in the sleeve, how do you align the holes in the pivot bolt/sleeve? Are you going to assume that a single hole in the bolt, and a single hole in the sleeve will be sufficient to get grease all the way to the bearings?

I doubt it.

Again (and finally??) YOUR method doesn't have do deal with the pivot bolt/sleeve issue. Which was the whole point of my post subject..right?:D

 

[WoodsRider]

My opinion is that zerks are bad. I owned a Honda XR and religiously greased the zerks until it oozed past the seals after every ride. A couple of times I'd see some water squirt out past the seals, but figured it was merely displaced by the water. Unfortunately dirt is not that easy to get out and at the end of the season I had wiped out my linkage.

So personally, on a dirtbike, I'd rather tear everything apart inspect, clean and regrease everything at least twice a year, more if the bike gets buried in deep water or mud. However, on a streetbike, I think zerks are fantastic.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[BRush]

Here are my reservations:

1) The seals are not designed to let excess grease out.

2)How to insure that each bearing (of the pair) gets grease? Seems like the grease will take the path of least resistance so one bearing of the pair will get most of the grease. Same problem if you install that check valve fitting you're talking about.

3) How to insure that the grease is distributed evenly around the bearing and you don't have all the grease at the top, while leaving the bottom exposed to any water that gets past the seal?


But, hey, give it a try for a season then post some new pictures to let us know how it went.

 

[DVO]

just a thought

The beauty of my ignorance is that it alllows my imagination to run wild...
Is there a problem with piercing or putting a slit in the grease seal? If you were to do this opposite the zerk, you would at least ensure the grease goes from one side of the bearing to the other before making its exit. As long as you grease frequently the slit would be of no consequence no?. The main problem would be ensuring adequate lubrication to the left and right bearings of each installation. As BRush said the grease could go in and head right and exit right without lubing anything on the left. You'd need a way of reducing resistance from side to side to ensure adequate lubrication and flushing. (as I see it in my blissfull ignorance).

 

[Tantrum]

DVO,

I have abandoned the thought of a relief valve of any device that would allow grease to exit easily. My train of thought at the time was to prevent the seals from blowing out the sides from grease pressure. I have since remedied that problem. If you look at front of the uni-track where it mounts to the frame you will notice that there is 1/8 to 3/16 gap just off each seal. At these points is where water, mud and anything else gets in; which in turn pressurized grease can push the seal out leading to bearing failure. What I propose and am in the middle of fabricating, only because the weather is so bad here and I can't ride, is disks of high molecular plastic. The would be in essence a washer that takes up the space between the unitrack and the frame. This plastic is extremely hard, but at the same time extremely slick. It is almost like a kind of teflon. Now, these 4 disks are not mean to prevent water and such from entering the seal area, but are placed there to prevent the seals from popping out. They will also take up any side to side slack that the rear end might have. Keep in mind that all this is hypothetical and I am in the process of doing this with all my old bearings and seals to see how effective it is before drilling away at brand new races.

But to answer your question more directly, no, I personally would not do such a thing. There is really more metal in those seals and not a whole lotta rubber. To put a cut in the rubber I think would be asking for trouble.

Back to the shop.
B. :confused:

 

[Jaybird]

A normal manual grease gun will create about 7000 PSI. Some guns create 10-12k. (btw...contary to popular belief, a hand gun will create much more force than an air powered gun. Most air pumps will be 40-50:1 ...if you have 100lbs house air, then the pump will only create 4000-5000 psi.)

Most full size hand guns will push out approx. 1cc of grease with each pump.

Once a seal has been violated you will need to continue to grease the bearing frequently to insure that contaminant is pushed out.

If you grease from one side, I garantee the other side will see grease before the seals pop.

I would highly suggest that you DO use pressure relief zerks. Just pump in one stroke at a time and remove. On the stroke that is too much grease, you will see the stuff come out of the pressure relief zerk and you won't have placed enough to blow the seals. Remeber though, once your seals have blown (grease gets past them) then the pressure relief zerk is moot.

 

[BRush]

Originally posted by Jaybird
I would highly suggest that you DO use pressure relief zerks. Just pump in one stroke at a time and remove. On the stroke that is too much grease, you will see the stuff come out of the pressure relief zerk and you won't have placed enough to blow the seals. Remeber though, once your seals have blown (grease gets past them) then the pressure relief zerk is moot.

Under that scenario, wouldn't the pressure relief zerk and the grease input zerk need to be on opposite sides of the bearing?

 

[Tantrum]

Brush, Yes. That is what was causing some problems. Hence my last post.
Gotta get to work. See ya. :ugg:

B.

 

[DVO]

Tantrum: I would think that we'd want grease to escape from the seal where it hugs the sleeve. This would force the grease to go past the rollers on their way out ensuring lubrication and flushing. Big deal if there is not a "perfect" seal. I think we don't want one. If you use ordinary washers between the seal and the tie-rod with enough clearance then the grease would escape past these. And as long as they are smooth they would be as slick as any type of plastic and be another barrier against water or whatever. And to boot, I'd imagine that if the clearance was equal on both sides, then just pushing on one side to make a better seal would enable the grease to exit the other and vice-versa thus greasing both sides equally. Just mental meandering. Wadda ya think? DVO

 

[Jaybird]

Under that scenario, wouldn't the pressure relief zerk and the grease input zerk need to be on opposite sides of the bearing?

Not if they are one in the same. I'm reffering to a single zerk that allows you to input grease but it also allows reverse flow once a certain psi is reached. (why I said to squirt once and remove)
These are used in one of the products that I carry in my business, but I'll have to research on where to purchase these beasts.
I can't get his pictures to come up, but I assume we are talking about a zerk on one side and a pressure relief "valve" on the other??

Actually, there is not much harm done by pushing grease past the seals. Problem is that when a labyrinth type seal gets grease past it, it probably pushed the rubber seal from its home position which "could" allow contaminate in. There isn't much room in there if grease is comming out the seals though, so I wouldn't worry about getting too much in. Just remember to keep purging some grease out every so often and be happy.

 

[DVO]

Jaybird, I'm of the same mind as you which says that as long as grease is coming out, nothing bad can get in. The trick I think is to make sure the grease follows a specific path to get fresh grease everywhere and flush all areas. I think it's worth the work to get it done. DVO

 

[Tantrum]

Originally posted by DVO
Tantrum: I would think that we'd want grease to escape from the seal where it hugs the sleeve. This would force the grease to go past the rollers on their way out ensuring lubrication and flushing. Big deal if there is not a "perfect" seal. I think we don't want one.

Reply:
Yes DVO, I agree with you on the premise that grease needs to travel from center to outside the bearing area. The only way for this to happens is thru the seal. But, how the seal will fail if too much pressure is applied and the seal isnt supported distal to the bearing is what I am trying to prevent. If the seal fails it will completely "pop" out of its resting place. I'm not sure, but I think that your idea of "failing" is for the fold of rubber that rests against the race would for it to fold outward instead of inward like it is designed. If that was the case, I agree with you that, that would be no big deal.

Originally posted by DVO
If you use ordinary washers between the seal and the tie-rod with enough clearance then the grease would escape past these. And as long as they are smooth they would be as slick as any type of plastic and be another barrier against water or whatever. And to boot, I'd imagine that if the clearance was equal on both sides, then just pushing on one side to make a better seal would enable the grease to exit the other and vice-versa thus greasing both sides equally.

Reply:
I would advise against using metal washers. The plastic is more than hard enough to withstand the abuse this area gets, but at the same time, is forgiving enough to give a cushioning effect to the side to side movement. The last thing I want to do is to make my rear stiff and unforgiving. And keep in mind that my whole purpose of putting these "spacers", if you may, is to prevent the seals from popping out. They are not for keeping any grease in.

I am off to pick up my bearings right now. It'll be a couple of days before I have any conclusive results. Keep ya posted.

B.
:cool:

 

[Tantrum]

Originally posted by DVO
Jaybird, I'm of the same mind as you which says that as long as grease is coming out, nothing bad can get in. The trick I think is to make sure the grease follows a specific path to get fresh grease everywhere and flush all areas. I think it's worth the work to get it done. DVO

Yes, agreed, BUT only as long as this process does not totally compromise the seal. Thats the key, getting grease thru without doing seal damage.

B.

 

[DVO]

Tantrum: If you put a few slits (1mm would be sufficient I think) around the curcumference of the seal where it hugs the sleeve you would create a path for the grease to flow and prevent compromising of the seal. They would be made from the inside of the sleeve area toward the outside. I think the slits would reseal themselves to some degree after the pressure has equalized. Or with a scalpel you could trim the inside lip so that grease could slide under the outer lip but keep the lip intact. I haven't done the math but you'd probably only need one squeeze of a grease gun to completely flush the grease in one of these bearings. Might as well do it slowly. I will do this mod and will grease before and after each ride, so I don't think the seal would have to be perfect. Still gonna tear down until I'm sure it's working as hoped. Your thoughts?

 

[Tantrum]

Well, I can't stop you from going ahead and cutting into the seal. But keep in mind that they are about 12.50 USD each! Just look closely to the seal and you might see what I'm talking about when I say that there is hardly any rubber to cut through. I still think that grease passing between the seal and the race is the best bet because you havent modified anything that needs to be replaced if it doesn't work. I am going to start drilling and fitting tommorrow. Taking pics along the way! :cool:

B.

 

[DVO]

Tantrum: :o I took mine apart today for the first time...I see your point about the rubber. I thought the seals were around the sleeve, my mistake. I'll take a closer look for the fitting later. I want to check the side clearance. Talk at ya later. DVO

 

[DVO]

Tantrum: Well I fnially got mine done. I ended up leaving the seals untouched and installed them as normal.
The bearings on the right side of the swingarm have a 45deg. zerk installed underneath and pointing to the rear. On the left side I installed it on the top, again a 45deg. zerk pointing to the front. I did this for better access, when I looked at it closer I thought I'd have more trouble from underneath.
I also installed a straight zerk for the rear bearing of the swingarm. It enters from the rear and points to the rear. With the front bearings, sleeves and seals installed and held in place with a c-clamp, the grease exits at the sleeve. Tomorrow I'll install the swingarm with all bolts tightened to see where the grease will exit and if it can be affected by applying pressure from one side or the other. Anyway I wish I had a digital camera to post pictures, but it's pretty straight forward. Feels good to have it done and looking forward to checking the results. Other than that, the weather's been pretty nice lately so I'll try to get out tomorrow and ride.
Have a good one, DVO

 

[Tantrum]

Sounds good DVO. I have had some serious problems with my local Kawi dealer. Hes a complete inept moron that cannot order anything correct. He ordered me 89-94 bearing set. What a tool. Anyways, I have drilled all my old stuff and re-installed it with all zerks in place. I cleaned all the old bearings before installing them and pressurized the system until grease spooged out where the seals are. I then took the whole thing apart again and just as I thought...... there was grease in every nook and cranny that I could imagine. It works beautiful. Now all I need is a distributor that doens't have his head shoved completely into his nether region that can get me some friggin bearings. I mean this guy is so lame that he told me that all I had to do was to repack my stock silencer when it spooges too much. Uhhh.....its welded together you hoser. Nothing pisses me off more than some fool behind a counter that sells products that he has absolutely nothing about, and this is the OWNER! Wow.

B.