Alternative Therapies for speeding healing

Yeah, whadda them dumm docs know anyhow?
Ain't never seen nuttin' a magneet caann't fixx..:silly:

what about anabolics? speed in the recovery of soft tissue, enable more range of motion durring physical therapy,increased red blood count..etc etc etc." testosterone propinate..good for what ails ya":p

Get it published in a legitimate medical journal and I'll believe it. (that requires studies and good evidence, not just some "doctor's" recommendation)

Jaguar, you probably won't have much trouble finding some believers here, there's just as many gullible people here as anywhere.

Originally posted by jaguar
"So we have the impression that the relief brought about by the magnets is lasting longer than relief by painkilling drugs."

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I'm sure that magnets are not addictive like some painkilling drugs either.

Total horse-poop, plain and simple. But I suspect that you are well aware of that, Jaguar (trying to sell something maybe?)

This is great. A sucker is born every minute.;)

to a localized painful area delivering static magnetic fields of 300 to 500 gauss over a pain trigger point results in

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Let's see....A standard refrigerator magnet generates 350-1000 gauss. So I guess you could alternate the polarity in circles by arranging motivational phrase refrigerator magnets, such as "D-I-N-G-L-E-B-E-R-R-Y"...etc.

10000gauss = 1 Tesla. Standard NMR (MRI) = .35-1.5 Tesla, which is ONLY strong enough to transiently "align" hydrogen atom neutron poles such that theircoordinated relaxation gives off a sensor-detectable RF signal. In that sense, one must know that there's no way in hell even that field is going to affect nerve conduction, which depends exclusively on Sodium channel gate protein opening/closing & calcium-flux-mediated neurotransmitter endplate release....blaah, blaah...Capiche???

By the bye, I have never noticed anyone saying their backpain, even transiently, was affected by NMR. (...the most often ordered MR: L/S spine for, you guessed it, back pain)

jaguar and nephron - you guys are certainly on the opposite poles of this subject:confused:

The magnet stuff seems a little far fetched to me but I know some alternative medicine options do work. I try to listen to everybody, consider what I've heard, try stuff that seems to make sense that I don't think will hurt me, and then listen to my body.

One thing I am sure of though is that the traditional medical system, including the AMA, FDA, etc, does not know everything and have all the answers. Look at all of the changes in treatment and recommendations that have occured as "new" information comes to light.

My main concern is that since there is so much money involved, almost every medical advance/investigation/study is influenced by the profit motive. I believe that cheap, un-patentable cures have not and will not be really studied with the same zeal that money making cures will.

I think most traditional medical people are really trying to do the right thing, so I'm not criticizing the individuals, but I think the system (including the threat of lawsuits) forces it's members to play along.

Let's go riding!

Nephron wins.
Why? Because his bike is much, much faster.

"but a truly savvy person waits for experience as a basis for an opinion"

That's my problem with most of these "alternative" therapies, it is based on some guy's personal experience or opinion. I just don't trust people enough to make those kind of decisions for me, so i rely on facts and proof instead.

My own sister hocks garbage products like this via the "Market America" program. (multi-level marketing) They have all kinds of potions and devices that they claim to cure everything from Headaches to Alzheimers to Cancer, and people buy it up like hotcakes. [They intentionally market to people who are very religious, I'll let you figure out why they consider those people the best targets, er, customers.] By the way they back up their claims with a bunch of "scientific" studies too, and make sure they add in a bunch of technical terms that the average joe is impressed by.

As far as magnet-therapy, have you ever heard of the "placebo effect" Jaguar?

mmmm..mmm..(homer simpson voice) dmso is gooood.:D it's my fav transdermal- local circulitory aide. alternate means are good, i use "alternate" means all the time because of my physiology background. never understood the magnet thing tho?:think hey, if it works for ya...cool. soft tissue injuries suck, i'd rather break something anytime as oposed to say, a herniated disk.never discount the goodness of synthetic testosterone....mmmmm..testosterone. btw, i kinda have an electomagnetic thing i try for my lower back pain( l5s1) i wrap my midsection with bare 8g wire, shove a piece of rebar up,well, you know where, then apply 220..221.what ever it takes,vac, to the wire. boom! i ussualy find that when i wake up a couple of days later in the hospital that all the lower back pain is gone. ussualy can't feel anything below my ribs,and due to total loss of bowel control i have to wear diapers for about 6 months. but hey..it works;)

jaguar and nephron, it is possible to have a discussion of different opinions with out personal attacks and the use of "***" words! Neither one of you is going to change the others mind by ripping on each other. Have a little more respect for others opinions or this thread will be closed!

Buster

Hey man, no insult intended...
I've got my DINGLEBERRY magnet necklace on right now....;)

This topic certainly is not worth getting heated up over. I'm certainly not--I go through this at least 3 times a week. It's great fun.:)

Also, it should be known I'm an open-minded doc. I use/recommend alternative therapy occasionally, depending on the CLINICAL situation. Know why some herbs work? Cuz' they have drugs in 'em.:debil:

jaguar--If it works for you, great. Go for it. And I hope you make millions selling them too, primarily because magnets are certainly harmless.

And as regards the Newtonian comment, some reconsideration might be in order. Good luck.:p

Fellas,

No offense, but here we have one of many great forums and we waste time by insulting each other’s beliefs or practices. When people hide behind a user name and a PC it is amazing to me how inconsiderate folks can be and will post things they wouldn’t say in person in a million years. To some this may be liberating but on a forum like this where we all share a common interest and desire to inform or inquire it is just plain offensive. Don’t get me wrong, I like a good joke or a pop shot as much as the next guy, maybe more, but not to someone I have never met who just doesn’t share my beliefs. All right, enough soap box, sorry, let’s try to objectively inform each other about magnets.

Jaguar,

The saying “whatever floats your boat” comes to mind. I am a researcher in the field of rehabilitation medicine and as part of my job I decipher through piles of literature on a weekly basis. I run many studies through rehab clinics, so I try to bridge the gap between science and practice. I personally have never used magnets or have I ever suggested their use to one of my patients. On the other hand I would never tell a patient to discontinue their use either. I do, however, know many clinicians that swear by magnets and quite a few therapists as well. One of the clinicians is a prominent department head at my university. I will admit to razzing him on the subject several times. If people want to have published research on a modality before they are convinced it works than that is there prerogative, but they may have a long wait. Many current practices and modalities used in “conventional” rehabilitation have little or limited supportive research behind them. Doctor prescribed modalities such as ultrasound, electrical stimulation, traction, massage, hot packs, infrared, the list goes on and on are used everyday either outside the scope of their “supportive research” or without any literary support at all, because they have anecdotally delivered clinical results or have been handed down historically as the standard. This is the dogma of rehab medicine. So what’s the harm in magnets, they are cheap, easy to administer, seem to help some people, and have little to no side effects or proven effects for that matter.

The other side of the coin: The problem is the vast majority of the public does not read the literature or worse yet they are presented a misinterpreted version of the actual findings of a particular study. This is commonplace and the media, including T.V. is responsible. Study findings are taken out of context and disseminated to the public as generalized results. This is the cross roads of science and practice as well as consumerism. A personal example: Ever heard of a product called the AbTronic. There are many like it. It is an electrical stimulation device integrated into a belt to wear around your waste. They often run infomercials here on the east coast. Well I am watching this infomercial early one Saturday morning, don’t ask me why I just have to watch them once, and they quote a study that I was involved in the 1980’s utilizing e-stim to strengthen abs. They even presented graphs of the data. Some of you have probably seen it. Well I can tell you first hand that they totally and unequivocally misrepresented the findings in that study to generalize the results for their product. So back to the magnets and the studies you cited.
I am familiar with many of them and I can tell you that the findings are limited at best. The Baylor study was published in a very respected journal and causes quite a buzz, albeit short in the rehab community. Companies constantly tout it as the validation study for their product. The study is very limited in scope and the experimental design is weak. It was a double blind study, that is good, neither the tester nor the subject knew if they magnets were active or not. They had a good number of subjects in both groups, another good, and for the most part appeared about the same, although many more females than males, and yes perceived pain has been shown to be different in males and females. A third group who didn’t get anything attached would have been nice and a maybe a few more with different dosage levels. Unfortunately, that about ends the good. The not so good, and I will just name a few because there are many:
The measuring tool was reported pain when the tester pushed on a trigger point. This is highly inaccurate for the tester and the patient as no device was used to test the amount of pressure applied or application point and the 0-10 scale is biased high because they basically tested to they found the highest level of pain and that is where they treated. The average pretest pain was about 9 out of 10 for both groups. If the scale were explained properly to these people, they would belong in the ER with a score like that. Post polio patients can have altered pain perception and the origin of the pain would be unlike anything you or I would feel unless of course we had polio. They said the scale was validated and cited a study, however, the scale is not validated for assessing trigger points or with use in post polio patients. The scale is not sensitive for change and no baseline for pain was used. Maybe just pushing on the trigger point relieves some pain since both groups improved. The measure, which is the core variable of a study, is inaccurate. Patients were allowed to roam free or stay put during the treatment this certainly confounds the data. Treatment areas were inconsistent. No reference is made about the testers. Where there only 2, maybe the results reflect the variability in the testers since they are the ones pushing on the trigger point, certainly another variable. If you know statistics, you will see that the group who did not receive active magnets scores went down and went down significantly. The researchers disguised this by arbitrarily deciding a significant decrease of 3 levels was the threshold for success. That is what the percentages that you sight (76% vs 24%) The support for this is lacking. Staying within the context of the results without manipulating the data, the findings would be: Both groups reported pain significantly decreased following magnet therapy or sham. That is what the data really says. Even this is inaccurate because of all the aforementioned limitations. Trust me I could go on for a long time.

I must rap it up before my wife kills me! Take from it what you will, if you want to try magnets I think you should go for it. I would consider it under the right conditions. But do it for reasons other than the literature at this point, although this could change. Hope I didn’t come off like a preacher but this is what I do for a living and I think I can help bring some objectivity to the table.
Alternative takes are welcome as that is how truly informed decisions are made. Sorry for long post.

Good Luck , Keith