# Assigning Series Points in D-14

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
There are two primary methods for assigning district series points. D14 currently uses Method B. Which method do you prefer and why? Justify your answer.

Method A:
Assign 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. place points according to how a D14 rider finished at an event compared to everyone who raced at the event (all district and non-district riders). In this case a D14 guy that finished 8th at the event would get 8th place points, even if he was the only D14 rider at the event.

Method B:
Pull out D14 district guys first, then rank by placement and assign points in order (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). In this case a D14 guy that finished 8th at an event could end up with 2nd place points if they finished behind the top D14 guy (who may have very well placed 1st at the event).

FWIW, out of the midwest districts, D15, D17, and D23 use Method A, while D14, D16, and D22 use Method B.

#### Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
Smit-Dog said:
There are two primary methods for assigning district series points. D14 currently uses Method B. Which method do you prefer and why? Justify your answer.

Method A:
Assign 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. place points according to how a D14 rider finished at an event compared to everyone who raced at the event (all district and non-district riders). In this case a D14 guy that finished 8th at the event would get 8th place points, even if he was the only D14 rider at the event.

Method B:
Pull out D14 district guys first, then rank by placement and assign points in order (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). In this case a D14 guy that finished 8th at an event could end up with 2nd place points if they finished behind the top D14 guy (who may have very well placed 1st at the event).

FWIW, out of the midwest districts, D15, D17, and D23 use Method A, while D14, D16, and D22 use Method B.

I like B.

Mi. Trail Riders
Why?

#### Wolverine423

System “A” for my vote. I feel that system “A” is best because it puts a twist in district points instead of the usual guys finishing 1st 2nd & 3rd all season long like clock work. With 3 throw aways a season the 2nd place guy may win a championship due to the 1st place guy having to toss out more points. With the "A" system you will find out who the fast guy is in the district 14 classes in a 2-3 or 4 district event and he or she will be rewarded properly. I feel system “B” lets a guy have a bad race in a 2-3 or 4 district race while a class front runner may have a great race and places well but when they both get home they both finished 1st and 2nd again for district points. IMO I feel thats not right.

This topic may open a can of worms as did the topic "time keeping to restart" format....

DW

#### Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
Smit-Dog said:

Because in all D 15 races SS A and SS B are combined so all the A guys are ahead of us. 1/2 the races are in Indiana so 1/2 the races the B scores will be like 6-7-8 in the class even if you have a good day. It can make a difference in the outcome of the D 14 series IMHO. IF D 15 had a SSB class then it wouldn't matter. Same for nationals.

#### Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
With 3 throw aways a season the 2nd place guy may win a championship due to the 1st place guy having to toss out more points

I can't see how the math would work on this.

I could see a guy that go's to all the races in AA class getting smoked by a guy like Al Randt riding 3-4 races if Al was in the top 3 and the other guy was like top 10-12. Al would more hthan double that guys points. IN a 3 -4 district race if the top 3 guys show up from each district that will push a Mid pack AA guy back to like 13th place possibly and hardly any points. If that happened at 2-3 races it could kick the guy out of AA.

#### Wolverine423

Fred T said:
I could see a guy that go's to all the races in AA class getting smoked by a guy like Al Randt riding 3-4 races if Al was in the top 3 and the other guy was like top 10-12. Al would more hthan double that guys points. IN a 3 -4 district race if the top 3 guys show up from each district that will push a Mid pack AA guy back to like 13th place possibly and hardly any points. If that happened at 2-3 races it could kick the guy out of AA.
That’s my point. Whats the difference if it’s Randt - Gualt - Luca - Sharphorn ect... The guy should not be in the AA class to begin with.The "A" system will find a faster guy to replace him and he will go back to the class he rightfully belongs in. Although most of the “AA” riders as well as some "A" riders are signed up to ride 3 to 4 districts anyways.So your above argument has already been in play for quite a few years now.

For the SS "B" rider ~ you can toss the faster SS "A" riders out at the end of the day and where you finish amongst the other 2-3 or 4 district SS "B" riders will be the points you come home with. SS "B” class would be treated just like all the other "B" classes. Why should anyone be kept in the game with a bad ride?....That’s like Roselawn's Summer Bummer day 2 event tossing out the 2 long sections....It move the slower un fit rider up the pay scale in some incidences.

#### Shagy100

Member
I dont even know why this is getting brought up because it makes the most sense for option B. I mean why would you give a guy 8th place points if thats were he finshed for the race and not for the district. Option a olnly works if your goin to have a regional championship. So how bout we just leave the series how it is cause its runing just fine right now and your numbers are UP

#### KTM Mike

Mi. Trail Riders
I like B. Like Shagy said - if it is a D-14 series, then the points should be how the D-14 riders stacked up, not how they stacked up along with the other districts. If A is used, might as well combine all the districts and only count for a regional series.

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
Fred T said:
...IF D 15 had a SSB class then it wouldn't matter. Same for nationals.
Although I can't guarantee it, I would bet a C-note that there will be an SS-A and SS-B national class in '08.

And there's every indication that D15 will also be splitting the SS into A/B for next season.

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
IMO, Method A is the most fair and equitable way to assign series points. This issue really has nothing to do with district / non-district riders, how D14 riders stack up against each other, etc.

A D14 rider at an event who places 8th, yet only receives 2 points less than another D14 rider who placed 2nd at the event is not fair to the guy that got second. If there was a substantial difference in how a rider performed at an event compared to another rider, that relative difference should be reflected proportionately in the points earned for the event.

Neither method is perfect, but method A is the most equitable.

#### fatherandson

Mi. Trail Riders
I like B...we are competing for points to qualify for a D14 banquet. If someone does not pay for a D14 card, their placing should not matter in our standings. Our district does not support our banquet. We have to pay for it.
Smit dog - why change a system that has work for YEARS?????

#### tdunn976

Member
fatherandson said:
I like B...we are competing for points to qualify for a D14 banquet. If someone does not pay for a D14 card, their placing should not matter in our standings. Our district does not support our banquet. We have to pay for it.
Smit dog - why change a system that has work for YEARS?????

As Fatherand son states we are competing for District placing and how we fair to our competitors in OUR series! If these other districts want to compete then they too must pay for thier points and year end awards, much like alot of us do by paying to belong to other districts. We then play by the rules of that district which may or may not be the same as ours. Which IMHO is fair and equitible.
If we had enough clubs and organizations that put on enduros in our State then we would not be travelling to other
States to provide a series with adaquete number of events,Thus this whole discussion would be moat!

A Midwestern series is still a hope and dream, but in these economic times ,just that a dream. At this time for a series that pits everyone against each other we have the FMF AMA National Championship Enduro Series.

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
The one negative I see in using Method A is that riders may cherry pick the events they choose to attend. Large, multi-district and national events may be avoided by those riders who would finish mid-pack / bottom 50% due to the larger turnout for the class. They may end up favoring smaller, single-district events instead where there would be fewer riders in their class. Traditionally high-attendance events may see a small drop, whereas traditionally low-attendance events may see a small increase.

In a perfect world where all D14 riders rode all events, this would not be an issue, and Method A would then be 100% fair and equitable.

The statements about how this is really about the district riders, who pays D14 membership, and how D14 riders compare / compete against other D14 riders are all true. And to better support this as equitably as possible, it's assigning points for D14 riders based on their relative performance at an event.

fatherandson said:
Smit dog - why change a system that has work for YEARS?????
shagyballs said:
So how bout we just leave the series how it is cause its runing just fine right now and your numbers are UP
Up until last year I thought ALL districts computed points like D14. A couple of D14 riders brought this to my attention. I found it interesting that a number of districts did it like Method A, and some used to do it like us, but switched to A. I did some research into some of these districts to better understand the rational behind each method.

Why change a system that has worked for years? I'm not necessarily looking to change anything - I just want to understand the reasons certain things are in place, determine if there's possibly a better way, and if so, then work on implementing it.

In my view, the fact that something has been in place for many many years doesn't justify maintaining the status quo if there is truly a better way that would benefit the riders, the district, and the sport. I don't believe in change for the sake of change, and I understand the hesitation people have with it (human nature). Just look at the outcry riders had with nationals going to the restart format!

Even with a number of factors seemingly working against us (down economy, gas prices at record-breaking highs, people outright moving out of Michigan), our attendance numbers are up. Why is that? I believe that it's due to a number of small changes implemented for the benefit of the riders, the district, and the sport.

#### Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
So Smitty was just stirring the pot? :nod:

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
Fred T said:
So Smitty was just stirring the pot? :nod:
No.... Just soliciting feedback, opinions, and trying to understand pros/cons of each method.

I'll save the pot-stirring for WildMan1 and Cagivaman... :nod:

#### INCA

One district is apples, one oranges, one peaches, one grapes, one pears and so on. If you want to know where you are in the fruit salad, ride the nationals. To know how you stand as a peach, don't compare yourself to the rest of the fruits involved. Stay with the system we've had doing fine for many years.

Young Ted

#### fatherandson

Mi. Trail Riders
Very well said Mr. INCA!

#### Wolverine423

This isn’t about seeing how one another stacks up to other district riders. It’s all about A D14 rider at an event who places 8th, yet only receives 2 points less than another D14 rider who placed 2nd at the event is not fair to the guy that got second. If there was a substantial difference in how a rider performed at an event compared to another rider, that relative difference should be reflected proportionately in the points earned for the event.

I can understand the district 14 membership/banquet argument - A good one at that. I’m sure this topic will stir the pot really good.

PS. HEY PIPE DOWN THERE TROUBLEMAKER :laugh:

#### INCA

Wolverine423 said:
I
PS. HEY PIPE DOWN THERE TROUBLEMAKER :laugh:
No way, and I'm not spending a week in the Kalkaska area moving birds nests off the enduro trail.

Rotten Sucker

#### KTM Mike

Mi. Trail Riders
We accept the fact when there is a large gap in points dropped between two places - one gets say 4th place point, the other 5th...yet there might be 10 points in between the two riders, and no other riders inbetween. In a multi district event there just happens to be a handful of riders from other districts inbetween filling out that 10 point gap. As Inca said - If I wanted to compare myself to the other fruits, I would ride the Nationals. As it stands now, I am a one fruit rider. (is a pumpkin a fruit? hmmm....).

FWIW Bill - nothing wrong with asking the question to understand the wherefores and whys!

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
Like the discussion.... :cool: ... But I must be doing a poor job of communicating my points with words.... maybe a picture will help the metaphorical view:

Even within a district of all apples, some are sweet, some are sour, and some are sharp and tart like my Granny Smith. ;)

Regardless of which method: D14 riders will still be competing against only the other D14 riders for series points. This does not change! I am not suggesting that we compare our riders against other district riders and/or national riders, and Method A does not do this.

- Method A may have a consequence of skewing rider attendance at events as riders strategize on which events to ride in order to earn the most points. This in fact is a strategy that may already be in play with the current system.

- Method B unfairly penalizes (or does not justly reward) faster riders in a class compared to slower riders. Under this point system, D14 riders do not consistently earn point values that accurately reflect how they placed at an event compared to the other D14 riders. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS? :bang:

I'm looking for valid reasons, pros/cons of each method.... "...because we've done it that way for years" is not a reason, it's fear of change.

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#### bbarel

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
I have discussed this with fellow riders before. I used to like B because scores are not impacted by out-of-district riders, but the more I think about it why shouldn't they be. If 1st D14 takes 1st and 2nd D14 is back in 5th why should'nt the 1st guy get more credit for beating 4 more guys. I say go for it. Oh sure there will be some sour grapes, but that will never change. :)

#### Shagy100

Member
Smit-Dog said:
Like the discussion.... :cool: ... But I must be doing a poor job of communicating my points with words.... maybe a picture will help the metaphorical view:

Even with a district of all apples, some are sweet, some are sour, and some are sharp like my Granny Smith. ;)

Regardless of which method: D14 riders will still be competing against only the other D14 riders for series points. This does not change! I am not suggesting that we compare our riders against other district riders and/or national riders, and Method A does not do this.

- Method A may have a consequence of skewing rider attendance at events as riders strategize on which events to ride in order to earn the most points. This in fact is a strategy that may already be in play with the current system.

- Method B unfairly penalizes (or does not justly reward) faster riders in a class compared to slower riders. Under this point system, D14 riders do not consistently earn point values that accurately reflect how they placed at an event compared to the other D14 riders. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS? :bang:

I'm looking for valid reasons, pros/cons of each method.... "...because we've done it that way for years" is not a reason, it's fear of change.
Well I can tell ya right now after this and a former heated discusion we had this year, if these rule changes or proposals go through its gonna piss a lot of people off and ther going to leave a series that is in an up swing. And i can validly say that if these things happen you wonat get my money to race another enduroin michigan. I'll go ride motocross and harescrambles only. And you'll lose at least 2 more racers other than me.

#### Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
Shagy - I'm more than open to hear your point of view, preference, and reason for wanting one method of point assignment over another.

But your point of view is hard to understand and seriously consider if it consists little more than "I'm pissed and if it doesn't go my way I'm going to quit". It's great you're passionate about it, but do something productive and meaningful about that passion. Enduro riders don't quit, right?

My phone number is listed on the D14 enduro site "Rules" page - call me.

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