ATF in gear oil (MXA recent issue)

Jaybird

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but you might be spending more than you need and on the KTMs we had better shifting in winter.
Testify, brother!

How about $40 liter KTM fork oil.

Seriously, john stu...reynome makes a great statement as well. How very true. Most OEM lubrication deals...wait...ALL OEM lubrication deals are about money. Bottom line, money....yours....and how to get the most of it. The OEM's will barter and deal with lube companies for the best deal they can get, and sometimes they will sacrifice quality for a bit more of the almighty dollar in there pocket. Oh yeah, the quality is there...I'm not saying it isn't, but there are far better alternatives to paying big prices for lubricants. Frequent change is by far the best additive any lubricant package can have. You have only fallen victom to the marketing game, it's not your fault.
 

jboomer

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Jan 5, 2002
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I've used the Type F for the last year in my kx and haven't (knock on wood) had any problems with shifting. Then again, I'm not a clutch abuser or revver either.
 

vetrider

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Nov 7, 1999
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it would be interesting to find out just who is making the oils for the big four(or should i say five now with ktm?).we have been using atf for many years on our honda's. with the aluminum plates a person who is really riding the crap out of the bike (imo) should be changing oil every 5 hours or so. the people that have bought our used bikes have not had to do any extraordinary repairs due to using atf. i say to each his own. i know what works for us. sometimes paying more for something does'nt nessecarily make it better. but sometimes you get what you pay for. pretty ironic isn't it? it's like the old saying "before you can be old and wise, you have to be young and stupid". talk to the (old) people in the pits. they are a wealth of knowledge, and most of the times(unless you are whaling on their grandkid) they will be more than willing to answer any questions you have to ask. let's face it if they are there, they like the sport and would do anything to keep it going.
 

marcusgunby

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Jan 9, 2000
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I change my gearbox oil every 1.5hours to be sure its clean-any longer and it comes out black.on a bike with steel plates i would go longer -say 3-4 hours.
 

BSWIFT

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Ahh! The great oil debate. This will never end. BTW, I use ATF F in the KX 310. No problems. $.99 a quart, change every other ride. Works great in the forks and is recommended by a noted suspension man.
 

john stu

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i dont disagree with maufactures charging too much for oil and that you could get oil just as good or better for less but why would you put atf automatic trany oil for cars in your bike its not a car or an automatic if you want to save money why would you not try running mtl manual tranny lube or even gear oil at least its the right weight oil, atf is like 5w i dont think it has the damping propertys of 85w gear oil to absorb shock to the gears and prevent chipping of the gears over time.5w if you want to run atf in your forks that sounds fine because fork oil is usualy 5w or 10w anyway at least its the right weight even if it does not have the right additives it should not do any harm,but atf is much to thin to absorb the shocks these trannys take sure you might get lucky and nothing might break but why take the chance, at least run the right viscosity oil if you dont want to run to run genuine honda oil

whats next let me guess you guys run atf in the rear end of your trucks instead of gear oil right because its .99 cheaper 85w- atf whats the differance right
 

marcusgunby

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you are confusing price with properties.The price is a side benefit that means you can change it more often.ATFs weight is equivalent to a light gearbox oil.The weight you listed are on a different scale.ATF is a thin oil and i dont tend to use it on my CR in summer as it tends not to help but in winter it centainly does.Some bikes shift better with ATF-thats what im looking for.No gearbox IMO has every been damadges running ATF thats changed regular.Many gearboxes have been damadged running expensive oils for too long a time between changes.We could go on and on and on and on...... but no one is saying for you to use it but dont discourage others with a lack of evidence.You opinion is just that an opinion with no evidence.I have given an example as many other have of ATF being used under the hardest conditions with no signs of problems-open you mind to the idea you may be able to run ATF without problems and save money-its not often we can use something cheap and know we are doing no harm.

Your argument for using ATF in forks is strange as you maitain its ok because the weight is correct-is this all that matters in a fork/shock?what about its VI rating are you happy that is similar.It is actually ok to use ATF but not becuase its a light oil or because its cheap-it becuase it actually works well and this can be verified by experts in the industry.
 
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TM-Frank

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Dec 15, 2000
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Wow! I'm certainly glad to ride a TM. So I can use the manufacturers' recommendation (ATF) and can buy the cheap stuff (ATF)! ;)
When I am informed correctly, a gear lubricant is always a compromise because the gear wheels would like a thick oil while the bearings (and the clutch) would prefer thinner oils. Since the gears can stand a lot of brutalizing (shifting without clutch etc.) they seem to be pretty tough anyway and it seems logical to fill in a thinner oil in order to pamper the bearings. But that is only my personal logic.

As for ATF in the fork: Currently I'm running ATF in my Marzocchi Magnum 45 instead of the usual 7.5 wt fork oil. I didn't do that because it's cheaper but because Jaybird made me curious ;)
Well, anyone who claims to note a difference in fork-performance because of this oil change might also claim to witness appearances of the Holy Virgin.
The only thing I have noted is that the fork seems to draw less air with ATF and does not have to be bleeded so often as with fork oil. A friend of mine, who works in Volkswagen's AT testing department told me that ATFs have a lot of additives that help them sealing, because otherwise they could cause some problems in the AT gearboxes. That might be the reason for the lesser pressure-build-up.
 

Jaybird

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My guess is that the lessening of pressure build-up is due to the fact that the ATF will not oxidize as fast as other oils may. The build up of pressure in the forks is due to gasses created during oxidation of the fluid, not the sucking of air. :)
Hey, Frank....don't blame me if the ATF thing doesn't work out!
(big grin)

btw...john stu...like Marcus suggested, open your mind! Also, you may want to check on the viscosities you listed, you are even off on those.
 

TM-Frank

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Dec 15, 2000
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Jaybird, who else should I blame?
I bought a 20 liter container of TOTAL Fluide AT42 last week (together with 60 liters twostroke oil). I'm definetly in need for a scapegoat...
 

jmics19067

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Jan 22, 2002
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would you not try running mtl manual tranny lube or even gear oil at least its the

if you like youre bike do not use automotive gear oil especially hypoid. the gear oil you would use in a car is so thick that at best after you warm up your bike makes shifting very sloppy. And for some strange reason my fiber plates would come apart and the organic material would stick to the metal plates. I would tend to believe that the sloppy stiff shifting will probably wear out your tranny faster due to the engagement dogs rattling against each other during a sloppy shift as opposed to just schnicking<?> on in. The loads on a 60 horsepower 250lb. cr500 with even a 300lb rider roosting away in the dirt are a heck of a lot different and less than the loads of a 250 horsepower 3000lb.buick with the family and picnic goodies
stuffed in the trunk driving down the street. Or a 1500lbs of torque truck engine hauling 80,000 lbs.. The rears in those vehicles have a helical cut ring and pinion gear as opposed to constant mesh gears. They also have the size to use a lot more leverage on the shifting mechanisms on the manual trans compared to a 1/2 inch throw on a 6 inch lever of a dirt bike.

an automatic trans in a car does have to deal with bearings and gears as well as a torque converter and slipping bands so I doubt highly you are going to lose any protection using it.
I tend to use a light grade non E.C. motor oil only because I dont know what happens to tranny oil if it happens to get sucked up and burned becasue of a leaking right side main seal. Any thoughts or comments on that woudl be greatly appreciated!!!
 

Joe-dick

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Apr 21, 2002
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The "Energy Conserving" refers specifically to the viscosity of the oil and to "long oil change interval" additives in the oil. Thinner oil pumps more easily so you won't see "Energy Conserving" on a 10w40 oil by definition, but the SAE/API designation has more to do with the fact that the later spec oils for gasoline engines (API SI and up if memory serves) are formulated to allow longer oil change intervals in four strokes before sludge production and oil breakdown gets above a certain point. "Energy Conserving" should actually read "Oil Conserving" because that's the real point of the newer designations. This may seem to be getting off-topic but it's actually very much to the point because most of the oils produced to the SI designation and up have smaller amounts of certain metallic compounds which provide good anti-wear properties in a manual gearbox, but tend to contaminate the catalytic convertor in the cars for which they are designed and marketed.

I'm not a petroleum engineer; I've run an auto repair shop for quite some time now and I try to keep my ears open.
 

Joe-dick

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Apr 21, 2002
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Whoops.
Sorry, I forgot a point I was going to make in my last post:
ATF has been used as a gear lube in cars and trucks for a long time now. I first saw it in a manual transmission as the factory fill in the trans of the 2 1/2 ton Internationals I was servicing in the seventies. IH seemed to think it could take the load, who am I to argue.

Joe-dick
 

Jaybird

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To really get off topic...I have had a little experience too with a similar IH set-up as you described, Joe. My partner and I at that time, used the rear-end from a '65 IH truck for a dirt track roundy-round car. That rear end is one of the heaviest, meanest rears you will find. The thing would be useless in late model racing, but we used it for a street stock class car (legal at that time since it had no quick change gearing).
The car was a '72 Nova with a measly 307ci. This car hooked up like no other car that it was racing with that monster of a rear. The weight actually helped the hook. (I led in points with that set-up until it became the first car to ever be totaled in a race at that track...another story for another time)
Now....back to topic, the tranny of that old truck did have ATF. We found that, that particular model called for a gear oil but the last owner had apparently went to ATF. He must have known something too. My bet was it made it easier to shift. (?)
 

jeffg

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Jul 5, 2000
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The "Energy Conserving" labelling of engine oil does not refer to extended change intervals, but to that particular oil's performance in standard ASTM testing. Oils certified as "Energy Conserving" have had to demonstrate a 1.5% or greater increase in engine fuel economy vs a reference oil in the standard test. There is also an "Energy Conserving II" designation which refers to oils demonstrating at least a 2.7% increase in fuel economy when compared to the reference oil.
 

yz250roost

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Oct 16, 2000
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I had no idea you could run ATF in a bike, I've been using silkolene for the past 6 years, does it help with hitting neutral? I hit neutral on occasion (maybe every 4 laps on this particularly nasty hairpin turn that is sand and it just takes all my momentum)
 

Bobt250

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Jan 21, 2002
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I was told by an engineer at Pennzoil that ATF is 5w20. I would worry that this a little too light to properly protect the gears in this application. But in the end I would agree that this subject is just like many others around here.....over-analyzed. I doubt whether it matters much, just change it often, especially if you have aluminum plates.

I had a friend who once thought it would be a good idea to put some STP in his Suzuki TS185 tranny. It wouldn't move. He drained the oil, put in fresh oil (no STP) and it still wouldn't move. He had to change the plates. Is that a good plug for STP or what? At the very least, it says what NOT to do.
 

MikeT

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Jan 17, 2001
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Originally posted by Bobt250
But in the end I would agree that this subject is just like many others around here.....over-analyzed. I doubt whether it matters much, just change it often, especially if you have aluminum plates.
Bingo!
 
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