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geir54

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ICAT - Has anyone used them?

I just saw this article on transworldmx.com about an ICAT ignition thingy and I was wondering if anyone has tried them.
http://www.transworldmotocross.com/mx/features/article/0,13190,536711,00.html
 

bclapham

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it kind of got looked at before but not much- try a search on "icat"????
 

Rich Rohrich

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If the product can do what the company claims then it should provide some advantage. OEM ignitions is an area where serious cost reduction has taken place so improving on the stock setup isn't really rocket science IF you spend some real money. Ignition coils that work well from idle to 13,000 + rpm tend to be big, heavy, and expensive which is the opposite direction that the engineering teams have been forced to go lately. I have a state of the art Jacobs Ultra-Coil sitting here. It weighs about 6 pounds and is the size of 1/2 of a firebrick. This would be a perfect coil for high speed four-strokes, but don't hold your breath. There is room for improvement, but whether or not the iCat is the answer is debateable. Personally I won't be putting my faith in the abilities of guys who think "it really rips now" is testing. :laugh:

Unfortunately the company doesn't say a whole lot in their tech docs, so I would suggest Caveat Emptor ;)

More info here http://www.icatusa.com/tech.htm
 

bclapham

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OK, lets up the ante here- i will lay down $10 and if someone else (ie 19 other people) lay down $10 then we can buy one and send it to someone like Rich or Steve125 (if they dont mind me volunteering them) and have them dyno it and track test it. any takers?

once done we can maybe sell it on ebay and give the money back to DRN.
 

steve125

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Sure I would be glad to track and dyno test one!!!! :thumb:
 

Rich Rohrich

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I second the vote for sending one to Steve so he and Pete Payne can wring it on the dyno and the track. If IiCat was smart and had real faith in their product they would send one to DRN headquarters for testing. That way we could send it to a handful of members and get a wide range of rider opinions. ;)
 

bclapham

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Rich: while we are on a role, is there and offical DRN route of contacting ICAT to see if we can get one for testing- maybe we can email them this thread or contact them in some other way. If they are as good as these people are claiming, i would have no problem spending $200- sounds like it could help solve a whole lot of rich jetting misdameanours i seem to have, LOL!
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by bclapham
Rich: while we are on a role, is there and offical DRN route of contacting ICAT to see if we can get one for testing-

Bruce - I'll have Thump and Okie check out this thread and advise you on the correct approach. :thumb:
 

nephron

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After searching European and UK (it's a British invention Bruce ;) ) patent databases---no luck. Their Euro websites show statistically INsignificant improvements in forklift fuel economy, measured in "kilograms per shift". :laugh:

Surprisingly, I found a test on an 02YZ250:http://www.icatsportusa.com/test.html

Funny how we have no idea if there are capacitors, wires, computers or mice in that canister, yet technical data is entirely absent. Perhaps because they have not yet received a patent in the US (and probably for good reason).
 

Zenith

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They give free trials of them over here so I'm sure if you give them a ring they'll do the same for you. They obviously have some trust in the product as they've made a point of going to tracks and handing them out for people to try for the day.
I've talked to a few people who have tried them and they all said how great they were, but when you've spent €150 who wouldn't say that! Also you'd have to wonder is it a real power increase the people feel or some other effect like jetting leaning out a tad? I'm half tempted to get one so I'd love to hear a full report from Steve or Rich!
They're on special over here for $165...
 

steve125

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Even if it did half of what they claim on that dyno chart of the 02YZ250, it may well be worth the $. Notice also they recomend after the installation of the Icat an increase in the plug gap to 1mm. Thats close to 2x the normal gap.

Rich maybe do a shootout, the Icat verses vs the power now. :confused:

I need to re-dyno the PN a half throttle and see if that shows anything.

If Icat has a surefire product then I would think they would jump at a chance to have that proven and backed by DRN. :thumb:
 

geir54

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Transworld seems to like them.
http://www.transworldmotocross.com/mx/product_reviews/article/0,13190,536735,00.html
 

bclapham

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Originally posted by Rich Rohrich
Bruce - I'll have Thump and Okie check out this thread and advise you on the correct approach. :thumb:

i was hoping someone else would take the wheel since i have too many commitments right now- i am giving a talk at a conference in 4 weeks and 2 papers to write so i should be concentrating on that really :think:

i thought it was nice of me to offer up everyone elses services though :laugh:
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by bclapham

i thought it was nice of me to offer up everyone elses services though :laugh:


I certainly thought so. :worship: :confused:
 

steve125

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It's too late now Bruce, tag and your it!!! come on man this may be your salvation to that blubbering RM jetting! ;)
 

nephron

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Smells like Nology to me, which uses an in-line tuned capacitor to soak up current after coil discharge until gap energy requirements are met. They claim this causes a fatter spark, in addition to the increased voltage caused by the capacitance.

Hmmm--these are the exact claims of iCAT. Looks like they're getting around the capcitor (patent infringement?) by using "complex circuitry", which no doubt summarily acts as a capacitor/resistor.

If I remember right, tuners of some of the superbikes use Nology? Whereas I know they're not that popular in auto racing, since the advent capacitance-discharge ignitions pretty much makes them less important. In fact, the trend in auto is to use a CD ignition with wires of very low resistance.

For the price, it's probably crap--and I think Nology might make wires for dirtbikes cheaper?
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by nephron
Smells like Nology to me, which uses an in-line tuned capacitor to soak up current after coil discharge until gap energy requirements are met. They claim this causes a fatter spark, in addition to the increased voltage caused by the capacitance.

I'm not defending iCat here but their claims do seem different then the ones that the physics impaired clowns at Nology generally make in print. ICat's claims to increase the duration of the useful energy. Whether or not that proves to be the case is another matter, but Nology has been trying to sell a different story.

Nology claims :
"Anyone who had physics in college knows the formula for power. In this
case we're referring to ignition spark power. Power equals work
divided by time (P=W/t). Thus, to get more power, you need to do the same
amount of work in less time." Sounds simple enough! Manufacturers of
conventional ignition systems though, want you to believe that it is possible to increase the power of ignition systems by lengthening the spark duration. This is not true! Lengthening the spark duration actually reduces spark power, as we already know P=W/t (Power=Energy/Time). "

You don't have to be Richard Fenyman to realize their website is filled with loads of this pseudo science drivel. They've really jumped on the Short duration, POWERFUL spark bandwagon. This might be useful if you were welding, but it's been proven time and again that once the required energy level to start a stable flame kernel is reached, that additional energy serves no real purpose unless that energy can be extended or repeated.

CDI ignitions by design tend to produce very short duration sparks, which at anything but HIGH RPM tends to be a DISADVANTAGE. As a rule short duration sparks tend to produce flame kernels that at low speeds or lean mixtures are easily quenched regardless of how much energy was used to start them.
Two-strokes have the added disadvantage of poor mixture distribution at low speeds, and high levels of residual exhaust gas, which makes for localized lean pockets in the chamber that are difficult for a short duration spark to
fire reliably. It's not a coincidence that CDI units which produce multiple short duration sparks of variable duration based on RPM are the most common ignition sources in every serious form of racing. I learned a lot of these lessons over 20 years ago when I was testing the original Gerex Multi-spark ignitions, on air cooled turbo charged drag race motors. The published research that has been done since then has done nothing to dissuade me from my original thoughts on the subject.

Circle Track Magazine ( May, 1996 issue) test showed Nology "HotWires"
produced no additional horsepower (the test actually showed a 10 horsepower decrease when compared to stock carbon conductor wires). Circle Track tends to be one of the few magazines that does scientifically accurate, unbiased, real world testing.

Nology claims:
"When the spark occurs, all the thermal energy (heat) is transferred to the fuel/air mixture, where it initiates combustion. A
hotter spark will transfer more thermal energy and therefore accelerates flame front propagation. The fuel is used more efficiently and engine performance increases."

More pseudo science misinformation. My auto shop teacher in high school
used to go APE when someone said HOTTER spark around him. It took me
a few years to appreciate why he was so intolerant of this out of context
misrepresentation of basic principles, but I eventually learned. The
thermodynamics, and physics involved is pretty long and probably boring ,
so here's a few basic facts explaining ignition from the highly regarded
book "Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignited Engines" by H.P. Lenz :

"In a spark-ignited engine, ignition normally occurs when a small portion of the mixture is caused to react by the passage of a spark at a temperature between 3000 degrees C and 6000 degrees C. The effect of heat is of SECONDARY importance, the decisive factors for initiating ignition are molecular excitation and ionization. "


excerpted from "Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignited Engines" by H.P. Lenz

While additional heat can have the effect of increasing flame speed once
ignition is started, there is no evidence that the Nology wire would
provide any additional heat, at the appropriate time.

As for the "THE SPARK LOOKS BIGGER TO ME" that doesn't mean a thing. But it has NEVER stopped a marketing weasel from putting it in an ad and attaching some outrageous,unsubstantiated claim to it.

FWIW I don't recall ever seeing a real tuner use Nology products on motorcycles. If I'm wrong I'd love to know who is using the stuff.
 

nephron

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Yeah, I got the Nology thing wrong. Whoops. Just read the patent application. My concepts were wrong as well. ;)

So why is it (other than weight) that bikes don't partake in multi-spark ignitions?

As far as anyone using Nology, my memory tells me most hotrod guys find them worthless. Bike tuners? You'd know better than me. I guess I was basing that on some stuff I read on the net last year when I was looking into it.

Magnecor has a good description of the 'big spark' vs. truth issue.
 

TheJunkMan

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Originally posted by Zenith
.
I've talked to a few people who have tried them and they all said how great they were, but when you've spent €150 who wouldn't say that! Also you'd have to wonder is it a real power increase the people feel or some other effect like jetting leaning out a tad? I'm half tempted to get one so I'd love to hear a full report from Steve or Rich!
They're on special over here for $165...

maybe its the placebo effect...
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by nephron
So why is it (other than weight) that bikes don't partake in multi-spark ignitions?

COST/Performance ratio would be my guess. The current setups do an adequate job off the floor. They are small, light and cheap to manufacture and they will eventually fail and need to be replaced by an OEM that generates a nice profit for the manufacturer. This type of engineering always seems to be a balance of cost, weight and complexity versus performance. ROI rules the day at some point.

Magnecor makes great products. :thumb:
 

nephron

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Magnecor rocks. I called them a couple years ago to see if they could make me some black wires. The guy just laughed: "No. We only make red." :laugh:

I don't think they make the cheap kits. You call and tell them what you want, and they cut it off a roll right there. Cool stuff.
 
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