Buying new bike hauler

you should bargin from the invoice price and simply ignore msrp. i would start from invoice (lower of dealer invoice or edmunds/other web site) subtracting ALL rebates from my initial offer. so, lets say invoice of 25,000 (msrp around 30,000) and rebates of 5,000 means i would initially offer no more than 20,000 and since dealers get 3-5% of msrp as "dealer holdback" (money back to dealer from mfg) - i typically would start at an offer of about $19,000 on my example truck. never - and i say NEVER pay msrp for anything. (my new crf450 was less than msrp out the door including all taxes, titles, etc...) - when you are willing to bargin for everything, you will be amazed what stores will bargin - i even get deals from places like sears :^)

Holdback is generally in the 0-3% range, varies by manufacturer, and is not always computed the same. Sometimes it's off the *base* MSRP, other times its the *total* MSRP.

For the real deal on how to leverage dealer holdback fairly, check out http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback

Another good site for accurate MSRP versus Invoice price is http://auto.consumerguide.com

Rule #1: Never trade in your car when buying a new vehicle. You can typically get thousands more through private sale.

Rule #2: Even if you do decide to trade in your car, *first* negotiate the price of the new vehicle, *then* negotiate the price of the trade-in. Two separate transactions. Of course the dealer will want to include the trade-in in the mix as a single transaction to cloud the deal, and ensure that he maximizes his profit - either through the new car deal or the trade-in allowance. Don't do it.

Rule #3: Before walking into a dealership and talking with anyone, get the facts and be knowledgeable on the exact vehicle you want, the exact options you want, and all the financials associated (MSRP, invoice, rebates, holdback, etc) involved in the deal. At this point, you are an informed consumer who can walk in and be quite frank with the salesperson. Don't play the sales game with them. Create a worksheet of all the financials, come up with fair price where the dealer can make some money, and shop dealers to see who can come closest to your price. Unless the market dictates a premium for the vehicle you want, you should be able to find a dealer who will come close to your price. The less sales time and effort they need to spend transacting the deal, the more likely they will do it.

Caveat #1: Consider market supply versus demand in your transaction. Certain vehicles command a premium over MSRP because of demand, and dealers know they can get $x profit from them. Meanwhile, certain vehicles sell for $50 over invoice, and the dealer is happy to just move the vehicle. The dealer will be much more motivated to sell vehicles that have been on the lot the longest. After 90 days they really start digging into the dealer's potential profit.

Good luck!

When Shopping, I would get an educated list of info. #1 being the invoice price on the vehicle you are buying... NADA, KBB, and edmunds
2. find out what incentives there are on your purchase....
3. Find the actual wholesale market value of your trade-in, IN kansas city, none of the dealers I have done business with used, edmunds, KBB or NADA for these figures, there was a " black book " produced by the local wholesale auction. I have no reason to believe that they don't have one of these in your area. The figures in this book were way off from the others. but reflected the auction market value for the auctions that go on in the area, some times the figures were higher, but most of the time they are lower.
4. There is such a thing as dealer holdback, which is money the manufactuer gives the dealer for selling the vehicle, as a salesman in a chrylser dealership, we never let this go.
With all of this in mind, if you want something that is $30k msrp, and $25k invoice, with no incentives, You should be able to get it for $25-$26 without playing those BS games, I would simply just leave and go to another dealership, and someone would sell it to me for close to invoice.

The last thing, when obtaining the invoice price, keep in mind that when you select exactly what you want, you will probably never find one on the lot exactly the same, and you will have to figure in the cost factor there. Or, if you are not in a hurry, a lot of dealerships will order one exactly like you want, and sell it near invoice. It takes a long time to get it, but you can save money that way too, based on you not buying xtra options you don't want.

Icentives, like a $5000 rebate? Well, most people allow the dealer to cash in the rebate, in reurn they knock the rebate amount off the price... Otherwise, the rebate goes to you and the sale price stays the same..... It is very uncommon for someone not to let the dealer keep the rebate in exchange for a lower price..

I just sold my 99 silverado last weekend for $17,000.
Private party is the only way to unload a used car. Be patient, sell it your self... unless you don't like money.

I have a 97 f150 that I'll drive around for a while but am waiting for the '04 F250's to give out some rebate money, should be about mid to late November. when they do I'll pick it up for just under invoice.... How you ask,
1) walk in to the dealer knowing exactly what I want, every option.
2) know what the invoice is on the truck.
3) have your financing with your own bank guarenteed for $2000 more than what you are going to pay.
4) be willing to take a truck that is on the lot. If you order the perfect vehicle you're going to get nowhere, find a truck with all the options you want and then some. let the dealer know you could not care less if it has a 6 pack CD.
5) this is the most important... go to the commercial sales dept and deal with guys who know trucks. I own my own company. Tell 'em you have an SP and you want to buy it through the company, as he is working up the deal tell him your going to want to put the truck in your name, not the company. Done!
I also own an '03 Supercrew Lariet, MSRP was $38,390, out the door my total after all fees $31,937.

Don't over pay.

I have purchased two new full size trucks in the last three years. The first was a supercrew like you are talking about buying, and then I traded it in on a chevy avalanche. I payed invoice, minus rebates for both trucks. Each time they tried to make me think I was breaking the dealership, but sold it for this price both times. Just know the invoice price, and what you have to have for your trade and stick to your guns. They will make it all sound really confusing when they start talking about the trade and the new purchase at the same time, just know what difference you are willing to pay. Whether they want to treat the trade seperate or not doesn't really matter if you know your difference, I think they just try to link them so they can confuse some people. If they won't sell it to you for invoice, minus rebates , someone else will. During this same time frame my brother has bought two new trucks also. He got the same deal on both of his trucks.
None of these vehicles were leftover from the last model year. Also, they were purchased from three different dealerships. I hope this helps you out.

couple of other issues to consider:

if you trade in your vehicle - it reduces the selling price of the new vehicle and may reduce your taxes (like sales tax)

if you reduce the vehicle price by taking rebates against the purchase price - it may reduce your taxes here too

note that i say "may" as some states have a limitation on the amount of sales taxes you pay on any transaction - if you are above that amount - your trade/rebate will not make a difference

one possible reason to take the rebate in cash is if you can find good financing for the truck and then take the (say $5000) in direct cash back - you could use to purchase a new MX bike or other toy that can not be financed at the good rate as the vehicle. (I may do this on a new truck to pay for the trailer/camper) note that you typically can not get both cash back and the 0% interest from a dealer (one exception may be in the case for special options that are not tied to a rebate)

it pays to read the fine print and know what you want before you go - i also run the numbers w/r to what i should pay as i have had the dealer finance people quote a higher payment rate than it should have been - they were effectively increasing the rate and keeping the difference. reputable dealers are not too difficult to find - they give a good price and stick with it...

oh, and after the deal - have some fun - i make them agree to remove all dealership stickers unless willing to pay sponsorship fees (for as long as i drive the vehicle)... why advertise unless they give you something - not to mention they look tacky at best...

good luck!

Whatever you do, go to a different dealer!!! Any dealer who is "dealing" based on MSRP as opposed to invoice is full of cr@p. He took you for an easy mark and wanted to rip you off. Do not let him treat you this way. Go to another dealer, buy the truck. While on the way home with your new truck, stop by the rip-off dealership and show the guy the new rig you bought for a fair price. You may even want to write a letter to the dealership to tell them that their sleazy salesman cost them not only the sale, but the opportunity to service your new truck.

Also, go to Carsdirect (www.carsdirect.com). It will let you build out your truck to see how much it would cost. It shows you the MSRP, the "Carsdirect price" (which includes any incentives) and the invoice price. The "Carsdirect" price is still more than you should pay, but I bet that it's way less than that thief dealer was trying to extract from you. I view the "Carsdirect price" as the price I'm willing to pay if I AM WILLING to get ripped off (e.g., don't want the hassle of dealing to save a few bucks). When I don't want to get ripped off, I pay NO MORE THAN INVOICE (and ususally a couple of hundred less than invoice) and subtract the incentives from the price. I've done this (the not get ripped off approach) on two Suburbans and two Tahoes. It has worked every time (but once I had to go to a different dealer--the new dealer has now received about 5 referral purchases from me).

Sorry for the rant, but I can't let a fellow rider (or any fellow human) get ripped off by a dishonest/sleazy dealer.

Originally posted by EBOD
... Sorry for the rant, but I can't let a fellow rider (or any fellow human) get ripped off by a dishonest/sleazy dealer.

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Uh.... Last time I checked, dealers were in business to make money. Why does that make them dishonest and sleazy? Some consumers buy vehicles at or around invoice, others at or around MSRP. Depends on the vehicle, and depends on the consumer.

It's free market capitalism pure and simple. It really boggles my mind when people cry that they're getting ripped off.... funny thing is, I never see a gun pointed at their head.

:silly:

Gotta go with smit dog on this one....You just need to work the situation. It doesnt to go to another dealer or at least tell them you went to another dealer. Another thing to do is make your offer and leave. 99% percent of the time they will call you back within a couple days.

I have no problem with dealers trying to make money or even actually making money. I do have a problem with their trying to take advantage of the fact that they have more (often way more) pricing information than their customers, particularly inexperienced customers. I also have a problem with their trying to confuse customers (e.g., combining two transactions, new purchase and old trade in, into one transaction).

I didn't say that the salesman should be put in jail, I just said that I didn't like his tactics and I didn't think he should get the poster's business. Just as salesmen are entitled to try to make money, purchasers are entitled to say "F-you, I'm taking my business to someone else." If everyone did this, the dealers that treated their customers fairly would be the dealers that make the most money.

Originally posted by EBOD
... I do have a problem with their trying to take advantage of the fact that they have more (often way more) pricing information than their customers, particularly inexperienced customers. I also have a problem with their trying to confuse customers (e.g., combining two transactions, new purchase and old trade in, into one transaction).

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Not only do I strongly disagree with the statement, but even if it were true, it would still be irrelevant in a capitalistic market.

Consumers today have much greater access to actual dealer cost than ever before. It is probably one of the very few commodity items out there today where this level of cost information is available, *for free*, to the average consumer. I remember years ago when you could pay a nominal fee ($50) to get the cost data, but even so very few people knew about it.

Please name any other commodity item where you can get dealer cost as easily as a new vehicle? Your house? Computer? TV?, Lawn mower? Hot tub?

:silly:

You help me make my point. Cars/Trucks are essentially commodities, but they are not priced like commodities. If the market were efficient, the same car would cost the same price no matter where you went (ignoring different tax rates, etc.) That price would be set by the market's invisible hand and would fluctuate with the supply and demand for the commodity.

In commodity-type markets (e.g., oil futures, gold, pork bellies, computer chips) a "dealer" who tried to charge more than everyone else (actually anyone else) would make no sales. You don't see one guy at the merc selling soy beans for more than other guys are selling at the same time (not to be confused with guys who "speculate" by waiting to sell at another time). The guy who tries to charge more will sell nothing--and will soon be out of business.

Here, the dealer is betting that the poster doesn't know the ways of the market. He's betting (and he certainly has the right to make such a bet) that the poster won't go down the street to buy the same thing for a lower price. The ONLY reason the poster wouldn't do this is because the poster doesn't know any better, i.e., the poster doesn't have enough information. Happily, however, the poster asked a question here on DRN and got some information. Now the poster can use that information and buy a truck at an EFFICIENT price. I have no regrets when a dealer who tries to charge above market prices goes out of business (just like the soy bean barron above).

Of course, cars/trucks aren't pure commodities so they are not priced exactly like pure commodities. Things like convenience and customer service come into play. Such things support some price discrepencies for the same car when purchased at different dealers, but not drastic discrepencies (especially because I suspect that the dealer who tries to confuse the consumer is also a dealer who doesn't see the value of customer service).

I also think that you're a little off on your statements about "capatilism." You seem to use the concept of "capitalist society" to support the notion that dealers can (perhaps should) price gouge. You forget to mention that, in a capitalist society, buyers can (and perhaps should) look for better prices too. That's what I advised the poster to do. You also ignore the fact that we're not in a purely capitalist system. If we were, we wouldn't have things like antitrust laws, labor unions (that enjoy government protections), etc. I'm actually fairly conservative (i.e., laissez-faire) on economic issues and I'm not saying that such things are "good" or "bad," but they do exist and, accordingly, we're not pure capitalists.

I think what's being confused is my use of the term "commodity". I don't mean the commodities market exchange, but commodity as just an article of commerce. Car, TV, Computer, etc.

MSRP is set by the auto manufacturer. Aren't they then the ultimate "price gouger" responsible for this atrocity?

What dealers are doing is no different that what happens millions of times in other financial transactions. The difference is that most consumers are aware of negotiating between invoice and MSRP when it comes to buying autos.

Look at the disparity in salary as another example. An employer hires 2 people with similar backgrounds, experiences, skills, and value they bring to the company. Person A negotiates a salary of $50K, while Person B gets $75K. The employer is happy. Both A & B are happy with what they got. Who got gouged? Who got ripped off?

1) Caveat Emptor...
2) You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.