Can't decide: 300EXC or 400 EXC or ???

[Bulldog]

I currently race a Honda CR250 in Hare Scrambles. I need some help deciding whether to purchase a new 300EXC or 400 EXC. I have always ridden 2 Strokes and I am confident when working on them. I am leaning towards the 400 EXC but I lack experience working on 4 Strokes. I was able to demo a 400EXC in the woods for a few hours and loved it. I had less time on the 300 was was also impressed. Can anyone provide info for or against either bike (not the Honda...)

Thanks for your advice!

 

[weimedog]

Gona race for a while? Go four stroke. Learn them and when the eco freaks kill the two strokes, you will have an edge.

Those 400 are awesome as well....a good enough reason all by it self.

 

[Strick]

300

 

[Bob Brooks]

Bulldog, I found myself in the same situation this winter. I had a YZ400 and debated and agonized over which bike to trade it for. I was torn between the 400 MXC, the 520MXC and the 300MXC. I have extensive experience on both two and four strokes, and I actually prefer four-strokes. I almost bought the 520 MXC, had the deal in hand but balked. After thinking about it for a couple of weeks, I went for the 300.

I had a couple of reasons for choosing the 300 over the thumpers. First off, I had a very difficult time justifying the price difference. My local dealer made me a very attractive offer on the 300, and I would've paid over a thousand dollars more for either thumper. For the money, I just didn't think the thumpers would have any advantage over the 300 and in some areas, the 300 is superior, partiucularly in regard to weight. While the KTM thumpers are very light for electric-start four-strokes, they're still heavy in comparison to the 300. In regards to power output, the 300 has more power than the 400 and won't give away anything to the 520 unless you're riding in really wide-open areas.

In addition to the financial side of things, I was a little uncomfortable with the maintenance of the thumpers. Like you, I am competent and confident when it comes to rebuilding two-stroke motors and maintaining them. I can do my own top-end jobs and etc. However, I'm not as confident working on the four-strokes and I didn't want to have to take the bike in to the dealer for valve adjustments and other maintenance. Another thing that spooked me on the orange thumpers was the oil filter situation. Obviously, with the low oil capacity, very frequent oil changes are required. I started adding up the cost of new filters and oil and it seemed to me that maintaining the thumpers would be an expensive proposition. Maintenance-wise, I thought the 300 would be easier and less expensive for me.

Ultimately, I bought the 300 and I'm not disappointed. It's a wonderful motorcycle, very versatile. It has enough low-end torque to grunt around on slow trails with my wife, yet all I have to do is screw the throttle on or stab at the clutch lever and it barks like a mad dog. The motor is really nice, like having two engines in one. The suspension is too soft for me, but that's really my only complaint so far and that's something that can be readily corrected. I'm really impressed with the motor. It's unlike any two-stroke I've owned, it behaves more like a "three-stroke." It's like a hybrid.

That said, you can't go wrong with either motorcycle. I've ridden the 300, 520 and 400 and I loved all of them. If money were no concern, I'd have all three in my garage! Whichever one you decide, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Good luck with the decision, it was a very tough one for me.

 

[VOR 492]

Thanks, Bob

I have been thinking of the two EXC's also, You have sold me on the 300

Can't seem to get rid of the VOR, I may turn her into a supermotard. and go harass the street riders.:p

Bill

 

[Bulldog]

Thanks

Whew! Thanks for the replies. Dollar wise the 300 makes since. Especially with the free set of tires right now. I was sold on the 4 Stroke but your fears are the same as mine for maintenance. I raced an XR before and it was bulletproof but the valve adjustments killed me. I guess I really need to sit back and think hard on your replies. I would appreciate any new thoughts also. Has anyone heard of anything new for 2002?

Since you guys live in Joliet you might want to visit my website. I grew up in West Chicago and raced all over the midwest. Lots of pictures form Byron, Red Bud, Lake Geneva, etc. Here is the link:

http://www.motocross.com/users/mxpastandpresent/mxpp.htm

Thanks again and please keep passing your advice!

 

[Strick]

Bob Brooks - that is the best response/bike recommendation I have ever read. I did not have time to add anything to my '300' post earlier, but there is nothing left for me to except. You can make it a 3 1/2 stroke with the Delta II reed cage, set on the low end setting.

My bike is almost 3 years old (when the '02's are released), and I will not get rid of it to get another. I wouldn't mind having a couple more like you mentioned, but no way a replacement.

The other great thing is, everyone that rides it likes it. So, it's not just me.:cool:

The maintenance issues on the 4-strokes are to be strongly considered. They take a lot of attention and money. The maintenance is very time consuming, when compared to the 300.

Thanks Bob, for reselling me on my bike!!

 

[Magellan]

I'm surprised at the concern over maintenance on a four stroke. Valve adjustments aren't typically that difficult and don't need to be done often. Other than that, what else is there that is different?

Mag

 

[Strick]

You don't have a RFS

 

[KTM400EXC#232]

"You don't have a RFS either Strick!"

One valve adjustment in 6 months, same spark plug, oil and filters every 3 to 4 rides(which once you KNOW how, only takes 10 mins), no mixing fuels either, other than these, it's the same.

Benifits, longer engine life, longer fuel range, engine braking, reduced drive train wear, including clutch and electric BLOODY start!

 

[Bulldog]

KTM400EXC#232,

How long have you had your 400? Do you race or trail ride it most? If you have raced it how have you found the minimal weight differnce under muddy conditions? Have you gone to the stainless steel oil filters? What has your maintenance experience been on the 400? I have talked with other 400 owners and the only problem reported is a leaky water pump seal in 2 years. Any follow-up on your history on your 400 would be really helpful.

Thanks again to everyone that has responded to this topic! It is really helpful as I sway back and forth on the 2-Stroke/4-Stroke fence.

 

[GWO]

I owned both (a 00' 300exc and a '01 400exc) until a month ago. I just sold the 400. Why? Because I race tight woods and I'm faster on the 300. I could certainly feel the weight difference and I believe my riding style didn't agree with the four-stroke. If your riding style is like mine, you would certainly like the 300 better.

The 300 is easier to maintain than the 400 (this is a fact). But if I would have liked the 400 better, I would have done the maintenance.

I'm not sure that the 400 would have longer engine lifle. You don't spend the RPM's on a 300 like you do with other two-strokes.

GWO

 

[Strick]

Hey electric start, have you adjusted the valves yet? I know you say one valve adjustment in 6 months, but did YOU do it? The manual say 15 hrs for valve adjustments.

I am not slamming the 400, and I would love to own the 400SX.

No way can you convince me that the maintenance is lower on an RFS. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

[weimedog]

So which is really cheaper to maintain? A racing Four Stroke or a racing two stroke? Any one really keep track of cost? On a per ride basis it doesn't really change much so far with me.

So far what I have seen is:

with my 1998 Husky WR360 per LONG weekend ride:

10 gallons fuel + Bel Ray pre mix+ trans Oil + bit of filter oil.

Vs. my 2001 VOR

8 Gallons fuel + trans Oil + bit of filter oil

My four stroke gets better milage than my old Husky WR360 did. Its either that or I don't have to wail on it as much. Don't know which all I know is I am using less fue.

I have NO idea about long term wear and tear on clutches and chain, etc.

I DO know my four stroke is eating the rear tire alive. Does this indicate chains will die fast as well? But my Two stroke used to eat front tires fast....think this may be a wash.

I don't fan the clutch on the four stroke. Did on the two stroke but it never wore out in the two years I had it.

I freshened up the top end on the Husky..preventive..it didn't need it at all. Of course I didn't know that until it was all apart. Actually the only thing I had to replace more often than I expected was fork seals on the Husky. Every three month's they were beat.

So....has any one really done the math? So far its too close to call for me as I anticipate cheaper operating cost on the four stroke but that to be offset by higher replacement/rebuild costs when the time comes to do a crank or a top end.

 

[mechantloup]

Hi!!! Don't worry about valves adjustment...it's a 30 min job,real easy, i adjusted mine at 3hrs and checked them twice since (30 hrs )and didn't have to touch them again ...oil change takes 10 min
As to say wich one is fastest in tight woods (300 or 400 ) i believe it depends on condition ....As for the electric starter ....you stalled the engine on a tricky single track on the side of a hill,kickstarter is on the uphill side ...don't worry..push the small button and roost on !!! :D IMO Go RFS !!! :cool:

 

[Montana300]

I ride a '99 300EXC, and have a friend who rides a 520EXC, which I have ridden long enough to "get comfortable". I have not ridden the 400.

As a rider who learned on big bores and XRs I would consider myself familiar with the techniques of going fast on a 4stroke. I am way faster on the 300. To be fair, I know I have changed my riding style for the 2stroke, but it all comes down to corner speed for me, and I just can't corral the RFS through any flat, bermed, bumpy or smooth corners in the woods the way I can my 2stroke.

To the argument that we will all be riding thumpers soon anyway, then we should all sell our pickups and get electric cars :think

 

[Bob Brooks]

Bulldog, I checked out your website, very cool. You have lots to think about, don't you? It's a big decision and I'm sure you'll pick the bike best for you. I wish you all the luck in the world and as I mentioned in my post earlier, I don't think you can go wrong with either bike. KTM really doesn't make a bad motorcycle.

I read some of the other posts arguing that the maintenance is less on the thumpers. I don't agree with that at all. I've owned plenty of thumpers and two-strokes and I think the maintenance is worse on the high-tech thumpers. You have to do all the same maintenance that you would on a two-stroke, plus you have oil filters, oil screens and valve trains to worry about. And, if you blow up a four-stroke, you're looking at MAJOR monies to repair it, while the two-stroke is much cheaper to rebuild (and you can do it yourself). The 300 KTM isn't a high revver, so the engine is not going to wear out any faster than the thumpers. As far as clutch use and fuel range, there is no argument there either. I use the clutch considerably less on my 300 than I did on the YZ400 I rode last year. For fuel range, I have a buddy who rides an '01 520EXC and I have much more range on the 300 than he does on the 520. I did a hare scrambles race two weeks ago without stopping to refuel, while the 520 was unable to make it.

Another thing I've noticed about the RFS bikes is that they do run hot in the woods. The motors get cooking and it's nothing for the radiator to boil. I definitely don't have that problem on the 300. I can ride in tight, technical stuff all day long and never boil it. That might not be an issue, but to my way of thinking, that can't be a good thing for the motor to get that hot routinely.

My decision came down to a lot of things, but ultimately, I just couldn't justify the cost difference between the 300 and the RFS bikes. I'm a longtime four-stroke guy at heart though. I'm an old dirt track racer and I grew up riding thumpers. I've always loved the power and the sound of a healthy four-stroke and it was difficult for me to give that up for the 300. But in the end, I just felt that the 300 was the bike that could do everything I needed it to do and it was more economical than the RFS.

Good luck with your decision, Bulldog, and be sure to inform us on which way you go! Also, thanks to Strick and VOR for your compliments on my previous post!

 

[Pumpkinhead]

Originally posted by KTM400EXC#232
"Benifits, longer engine life, longer fuel range, engine braking, reduced drive train wear, including clutch and electric BLOODY start!

I liked my XR 400......for these very reasons.......but........

It never provided me the blood pumping adrenaline rush that my MXC now provides easily whenever I command it to do so.

BTW- I can knock two of your benifits of the list.

First-My bike starts cold on the first or second kick every time. Isn't this electric start anyways?

Second-I am getting close to the same fuel range with the MXC that i had with the XR.

Put it all together and the 2-stroke is just more fun-IMO.:)

The list of benefits depends greatly on the rider. If you seek mad power quickly to keep yourself entertained then I think the 2-stroke 300 is the only way to get this.

 

[longtime]

Originally posted by kalitude
This is some really great information and all...but what is really important is that there is absolutely nothing sexier than a man on a KTM Thumper (that is, except a man on a Husaberg) :p

Wow. Such objectification of us menfolk. Please remember this next time you ponder trashing someone when you are in a "hypersensitive" mood about the objecification of women. Deal?

 

[Tennessee Thumper]

LOL

 

[KTM400EXC#232]

Originally posted by Strick
Hey electric start, have you adjusted the valves yet? I know you say one valve adjustment in 6 months, but did YOU do it? The manual say 15 hrs for valve adjustments.

I am not slamming the 400, and I would love to own the 400SX.

No way can you convince me that the maintenance is lower on an RFS. So let's just agree to disagree.

Yes I do all my own servicing TOTALLY, Yes I adjusted the valves(do a search on my user name and YOU too will also know how easy it can be).

I am not slamming any "ring dings" either!

Yes I race, Enduros, that are near home, but mostly trail ride.

Most in field failures that I witness are two stroke bikes, and most of those problems are not in field repairable.
I see more con rod bearing (little or big eng, mostly big end) damage on two strokes than valve problems on four strokes at a rate of least 4:1.

Bulldog,

I have owned this bike since Sept 00.

I weigh 105kg and an 190cm tall, the weight of the bike makes a difference, but not as much as it would to a smaller person. Plus the biggest difference I have found is your fitness level, big bike or small bike you can't hang on at the edge when your "stuffed".

No. I don't use stainless filters, I prefer to use fresh filters.

And No I havent seen a water pump seal fail on any RFS that know of yet.

Loose engine mounts, yes. And rear wheel bearings for those who overtighten their drive chains.
Gear levers that never really seem to tighten up, need replacing with the new units and given a gentle tap onto the shaft to bed in the splines first.

Most wear and tear on these bikes seems to be minor items all over, with nothing to drastic in the one area. eg. suspension(front seals and rear shock mounts) , cables, cooling system hose clamp/fittings, wheel beaings, dust into the switch blocks, some with poor front brake lever feel, sticking throttles.

The engines dont have a common weak point.

Have seen one 400 seize, this was put to not run in and raced, operator failure.

Hope this helps.

 

[Coach in ND]

The Ktm thumper isn't that hard to maintain.

Change the oil every couple of weeks, change the filter every 2 or three oil changes, clean the screens every oil change.

New filter almost every ride.

Keep up on you valve adjustments ( super easy, I've never owned a 4-stoke and didn't have a prob)

Sure oil and filters cost money but you won't be doing any topends and if you know how to ride it you shouldn't have to do a clutch for quite awhile. I don't know about the KTM 4-stroke topend, but my buddy had a '98 yz 400 and pulled his motor down after a full year of moto. 30+ races, 2 or 3 classes a race, and his topend looked great, everything spec'ed out. The KTM topend should last years.

 

[Bill Hibbs]

I've got to agree with PumpkinHead. I just got a 300exc a month or so ago and this bike is a total blast. I consider it more of a 3-stroke. It loves to be ridden low and just grunt around. But you've still got the explosive power of a two-stroke at your finger tips. The extra weight of the big 4-strokes is what bugs me the most. Either way you go you're going to be happy!

 

[longtime]

Originally posted by kalitude

Well I suppose my sarcastic humor was lost on you that time LT.

Nah, I got it. Even liked it. I was just pointing out a parallel regarding other people's humor. No hard feelings. :) Matter of fact, I'm kind of bummed you're probably going to be gone from this state before I get to ride with you and Kevin and the NorCal folks. :(

 

[Bulldog]

Everyone has put some really interesting arguments supporting both sides of the issue. My thanks to everyone! Last night at our club meeting our local KTM dealer agreed to allow me to take both bikes out for a demo day on my own. I should get the definitive answer by days end - I hope. I will post my decision when I do this. I plan on testing both around 15/16 May. I have a race this weekend and the following weekend is Mother's Day. Judging by the number of hits on this topic there are a lot of people just as interested as I am in these bikes. Please keep posting additional information and again thanks for the information you have provided.

Ralph Benhart ( a.k.a. Bulldog):)