Ceramic bore coatings

Discussion in 'Fabrication, Welding, Machining' started by SFO, Oct 18, 2002.

  1. SFO

    SFO Lifetime Sponsor

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    :think: I read today in Performance Racing Industry magazine about a company that produced ceramic bore coatings for automotive racinge engine sleeves.
    IRL, Indy, and Nascar, where touted as their users.
    Super news to me, they listed email contact names but no web address, repeated attempts at calling and emailing have yielded no response.
    Again, any experiences out there?
    Seems like new ring coatings or base metals would be in order, as well as respecifying ring groove surface finishes and concentricity.

    Looks like hey are putting the coating on Fe sleeves,(no Punny for my bunny).
    Still kinda weird, I can see bonding it to aluminum but iron?
    An :think: yone?
     

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  2. Rich Rohrich

    Rich Rohrich BioHazard
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    US Chrome has a process to coat steel sleeves. Eric has worked with them on it. I'll give him a call and get him to give us the lowdown on the process.
     
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  3. cujet

    cujet Pro Champ
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    I asked US Chrome about plating my old RZ350 iron cylinders. At the time I called, I was not ready to send them and let them know that. They indicated that they were about ready to start plating the iron bores. They mentioned the nearly unbelievable additional wear resistance as a big selling point, especially on vintage engines where parts are hard to come by.

    Chris
     
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  4. SFO

    SFO Lifetime Sponsor

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    I just talked to this guy finaly.
    He said that max power is doing the process on al sleeves.
    Isn't max power Erics old plater?
    He said to talk to a MR Poeten?
     
  5. MACE

    MACE Lifetime Sponsor

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  6. DEANSFASTWAY

    DEANSFASTWAY Lifetime Sponsor

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    Max Power Cyl Apticoat 2000 . Looks really good and have been using them for quite a while now on all cyls . Microsprints on Alxcohol are very hard on cylinders , One of the guys I did a big bore for melted 2 pistons in a cylinder before he found the fuel problem . each time the cylinder required acid etch and mild honing /still running strong . Ive had them plate TRX 250R cylinders (iron sleeve) Yes I think Eric Gorr used to work there or did development with them .
     
  7. EricGorr

    EricGorr Super Power AssClown

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    Coatings and other stuff…

    Ok guys theres lots of stuff going on here and I’m going to try and cover it without pissing off too many people off in the automotive industry for giving y’all the inside scoop.

    Coated Liners – The ad SFO saw in the PRI magazine is for a company named Perfect Bore, located in Andover England. They make liners in a variety of materials and are a preffered F-1 vendor. Materials include aluminum (or as they say in the UK aluminium) steel, and GKN metal matrix composite. Aluminum and MMC liners are used in a wet application for modern F-1 and IRL engines. Steel liners are used in a dry application for cast iron blocks in NASCAR & NHRA applications. They don’t make cast iron liners and coat them, that concept would make their CEO Martin Case cringe! Perfect Bore is owned by Performance Motorsport Inc. which is the group that also owns Wiseco, Vertex, and Carrillo. PMI’s parent company is Dover Diversified. Perfect Bore’s American agent is A.I. LeGrande Wood, known in the racing industry as Woody. He owns DRC (Detroit Racing Components) in Ortonville Michigan. I consider Woody to be one of the most influential innovators in NASCAR racing because he’s responsible for adapting and integrating F-1 racing technology in the form of processes, products, and corporate development to American auto racing. He’s a smart dude and his son Allan races vet motocross and is a DRN member.
    Perfect Bore’s coatings are handled by A.T. Poeton & Sons in Gloucester England. That company also owns Max Power Cylinders Inc. in Madison Wisconsin. My connection to these companies started like this; In 1996 Poeton and Perfect Bore started Max Power as a joint venture and contracted me to be the general manager and essentially start the business from scratch, doing site planning, assembling the plant, filing EPA licenses, writing the marketing plan and all the advertisements, hiring and training staff and making the “big machine run”.

    Me and Max Power - In 2000 I left my position at MPC because an unqualified individual was hired in a nepotistic fashion by the president of MPC, supposedly to work as my right hand man. He was much younger and was paid much more money than me. This guy hired all of his friends, also unqualified people with no motorcycle industry experience or even basic machining knowledge. The stress of baby-sitting for 75hrs a week was a bit much for me so I re-started my business Forward Motion so I could work one-on-one with my customers involved in motorcycle racing. Contrary to what people on the telephone at Max Power say about me, I gave 6 months notice and fulfilled all the goals outlined by Anthony Poeton including producing a technical manual for performance machining in accordance with a ISO 9001 quality system, a web site, and co-authoring an SAE technical paper that was the basis for marketing efforts to OEMs. All of the negative comments that MPC personel tell customers on the phone about me is untrue, but theres little that I can do about it.
    I chose to align myself with US Chrome because Bob Reath, the CEO is an enthusiastic gear-head, with years of experience as a performance innovator and sponsor in IRL and NASCAR racing. USC doesn’t compete against me and our businesses compliment each other. Now that we have that out of the way, lets get back to coatings.

    Nickel Composite Coatings – Apticote is a tradename for Poeton and NICOM is a tradename for US Chrome. This is an electrolytic nickel composite coating using nickel as the matrix to dispurse silicon-carbide particles evenly across a bore surface so as to provide a load bearing wear resistant surface. The German Mahle company calls their coating NIKASIL and Kolbenschmit calls theres LOCASIL. They’re all the same thing, no matter what their ads say about ceramic this or composite that, its all essentially a 30 year old technology first pioneered by US Chrome.

    Coating Cast iron – Nickel composite coatings can be applied to cast iron but its difficult because cast iron is a dirty material that requires a carefull pretreatment. Companies like RPM and Langcourt offer cast iron plating in their brochures and they do this by coating the entire cylinder in masking material then exposing only the bore. The reason is that the pretreatment acids used for aluminum and ferrous materials like steel and iron are different and will oxidize the other material. The reason why USC doesn’t offer this service for mixed material cylinders like RZ350s is this; if any area of the masking cracks and the acid penetrates it will destroy the aluminum. Most of the people looking to have this work done are doing it for antique parts and USC doesn’t want to take responsibility for a loss like that. Read the other companies brochures, they don’t take responsibility for it either!
    Right now US Chrome is the industry leader in plating cast iron blocks in NASCAR racing. The recent 1-engine rule has facilitated the growth of nickel composite coatings in cast iron engines. The reason why Perfect Bore offers steel liners instead is because their coating plant is in England and its too expensive to send blocks back and forth across the pond. Poeton’s also has the ability to coat cast iron blocks and they run a business named APTEC out of their Gloucester works.

    Keronite – This is a relatively new coating that’s like a super hard anodizing process that penetrates the surface of aluminum or magnesium. It was developed at the Moscow Aviation Agency during the reign of the old Soviet Union. The two Russian-Jewish scientists that developed it left Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. One went to Isreal and started a company called Al-Mag. The other man immigrated to the UK to start Keronite. The main benefits of the coating is that it produces a wear and corrison resistant coating on aluminum and magnesium, without producing any hazardous waste. A tank of electolyte solution contains a high energy anode and parts for coating. The energy required for this process is tremendous and special cooling capabilities must be added to the process. The only Keronite plant in operation in the US is at Max Power in Madison Wisconsin. Anthony Poeton has started a new Poeton group company named Magnesium Coating Inc. to go after the market for corrision resistant magnesium products.
    Al-Mag markets the coating in Isreal and the biggest use of the coating is for cylinder bores on 2-cycle drone airplane engines.
    Last year USC had some cylinders coated by Keronite UK. The cylinders were honed and tested for wear resistance, thermal transfer, and friction. The results were compared to nickel composite, MMC, and cast iron bores in an SAE paper presented at the 2001 SAE Congress meeting in Detroit. The paper was authored by Dr. John Carpenter and is available from the SAE Bookstore or by request from US Chrome. The results show that Keronite is not a great bore coating because it has thermal barrier characteristics and is relatively soft compared to nickel composite. But it is cheap, disposable, and hazardous waste free. Once a cylinder is coated with Keronite it can’t be repaired like nickel coatings which can be chemically stripped. However there are many great uses for Keronite and if you work at a company that makes aluminum or magnesium parts that require wear or corrosion resistance, contact Anthony Poeton at 1-608-224-2524 to get some tech info on the benefits of the process.
     
  8. SFO

    SFO Lifetime Sponsor

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    Woody said nice things about you Eric.
    I feel deceived, them calling the same old nicasil coating ceramic... :|
     
  9. DEANSFASTWAY

    DEANSFASTWAY Lifetime Sponsor

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    Hi Eric , I was not trying to push MPC in any real way , just saying that I have had pretty good luck with them . Actually they spoke very highly of you when asked . I would like to confer with you on a late RM 250 motor so maybe Ill send you an E mail . Thanks DEAN
     
  10. EricGorr

    EricGorr Super Power AssClown

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    SFO
    There is a new type of ceramic composite coating that could be a significant improvement over nickel silicon-carbide. It involves Boron. Perhaps the article or ad you saw reffers to that. I've read some JSAE papers about Suzuki's experiments with Boron coatings, and they even marketed it for a few years on the RMs. USC has a version of the Boron composite coating and they've measured the friction of the cylinder bore and piston assembly on a motored engine. The problem is the cost is very high. Of course those auto racing guys are made of money :cool:
     

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