CRF vs. YZF vs. KXF - my 250F shootout/ride reports


nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
I posted this over at ThumperTalk - thought I would share it here as well:

Just some background - I switched to a 4-stroke last year when I got my '03 YZ 250F. I immediately fell in love with the 250F and shaved a few seconds off my lap times (I came off a '01 YZ 125). There was no comparison from the 125 to the 250F. For comparison purposes, I am a 5'5" 130 lb. intermediate MX rider.

So I was real pumped to hear about all the new thumpers for '04 and I couldn't wait to take a spin on them all. I have zero complaints with my YZF but if I had 2 wishes I would ask for it to (1) magically help me get faster in turns and (2) get even lighter.

CRF - 1ST RIDE - My first ride on the CRF was at my friend's SX style track. Overall after giving the bike back, my thoughts were "it was fun but I'll stick with the Yamaha".

POWER - The CRF doesn't have the low end punch like the YZF so coming out of turns I had to wait for the power unless I clutched it like a 125. And in stock form, second gear on the CRF revs out very fast. There is an uphill double out of an off-cambre turn that I always take in 2nd on my YZF and on the CRF, I slid out in the off-cambre turn a little then had the bike bouncing off the rev limiter to clear the double. But the CRF has a very nice third gear that just seems to keep making power when I could open it up on the tight track.

SUSPENSION/BIKE FEEL/CORNERING - The CRF had maybe 1 hour on it and I found the forks to be extremely soft and the bottoming resistance to be disappointing. I flat landed a medium sized table and the forks easily bottomed. The rear suspension felt pretty good though. The bike felt light and like a Honda in the air. I think the bikes wiegh about the same, but the CRF seems to carry it's weight lower and the YZF is slightly more top heavy. I also had to adjust a little to the bike set-up as my bars are lower on my YZF than the CRF. The CRF front brake was very nice compared to my weak YZF front brake and the rear were about the same. Shifting on the CRF was a little notchy (like from neutral to 2nd) but maybe it's just a new bike thing? The clutch on the CRF was a little more responsive than my YZF which I think is due for plates. Cornering felt about the same on the CRF at this track, I was able to turn a little tigher and get up on the tank easier, nothing too noticeable, but read below about the MX track comparisons for more.

STARTING - Why is the CRF kickstarter so darn small?!? It started okay but I rather kick my YZF. Sometimes I would get hung up trying to kick the CRF in the first part of the stroke. Plus I feel that the CRF sits a little taller and I can get better footing on my YZF to give it a good kick.

So for a tighter SX-style track - give me my Yamaha.... now lets compare on a real MX track!

MX COMPARISON - ALL THREE - I have ridden my YZF, a CRF, and a KXF at my favorite track - Sunset Ridge in Walnut, IL. Sunset is a wide open sandy dirt mix track through natural rolling hills. There are 5 lines minimum in every turn and a bunch of decent sized safe jumps.

KXF - I rode the KXF there like 3-4 weeks ago, and have already posted a review, but the main point was the bike felt like a carbon copy of the YZF. The power was very similar although I found the KXF to be a little less responsive out of a flat turn when rolling the throttle (in 3rd) with no clutch compared to the YZF. The midrange power of both bikes was very comparable (the KXF may have had a tad more) and the KXF seemed to rev high but not keep pulling power on the very top like the YZF. The handling and feel of the bike was very similar to the YZF. I was able to hop on the bike and go full speed on the 1st lap as it felt like a green YZF except with a very strong front brake. It carved through turns nice, but nothing that much different than the YZF. If anything, the turning was a little "quicker". The stock suspension on the KXF was excellent. Starting the bike is very easy due to the huge kickstarter and the longer stroke. I also felt that the KXF sat about the same as the YZF which feel lower than the CRF.

CRF - Here's my lap by lap thinking... 1st lap in the A/B practice... "hey I only got passed by 1 or 2 people... not bad". 2nd lap "I feel really good... this bike is fun... wonder if I can hold off this frieght train of guys behind me". 3rd lap "man I'm pulling on them... this thing is sweet... maybe I need to get a CRF... now!"

POWER - on a wide open outdoor track the CRF rocks! Still it was a little "slow" coming out of corners but with a little clutch work and throttle action, it could come screaming out of a turn. And in 3rd and 4th gear, you just keep making more and more smooth power! 1st lap I hit an 80 foot downhill triple in 4th gear 2/3 throttle like I do on my YZF and I overshot the landing by at least 10 feet. The forks, as I mentioned earlier, got a good clanking on that landing - but there was no unpleasant rebound or kick after the big flat land so that was good. I really like the CRF motor on a wide open track - it's like a mini CRF 450 powerhouse. The YZF seems to hit harder then not keep climbing on power as much as the CRF. One thing I did notice though, on the YZF you can short-shift from 3rd to 4th and 4th will easily be on the power whereas on the CRF when I shifted from 3rd to 4th to early it took a little catching up before the 4th gear power would really kick in.

SUSPENSION/BIKE FEEL - Front forks = too soft, rear = decent, rebound = not too springy and pretty forgiving. I am really disappointed how bad the front bottoms for me at 130 lbs. I have been riding my YZF suspension stock all season and love it on jumps. In the whoops the YZF tracks straight but sometimes the rear end kicks up and sometimes off jumps the rear end kicks out to the side but landing jumps it's perfect. The CRF seemed to track well through the rough stuff too but the front end wanted to dance a little. After a lap or so, I felt very comfortable with the feel of the CRF, much more than I did on the SX style track. The bike feels light and nimble and the new frame is great. Although I was VERY tired after a few hard laps on the CRF compared to the YZF. Not sure if it had to do with the bars being higher or what.

CORNERING! - I tore up that inside line! There is an S-turn section where I normally hit the middle-outside rut/berm on the left of the "S" then cut back in and hit the inside of the right of the "S". With the CRF, I was able to hit the brakes and carve out the tightest inside line in the flat stuff on the left turn of the "S" making a shorter and straight shot to the right turn. What a feeling! It's so easy so slide up on the tank and put this thing where you want to go.

OVERALL - The CRF rocks on a wide open track, however I did not like it as much on a SX style track in stock form. I think I'll be staying blue for '04 unless I get a few more laps on the CRF at some tighter tracks and feel how I did on it at Sunset Ridge. I would also like to know why the CRF made me so tired after a few laps compared to the YZF. I am also curious to see how all of the bikes hold up after a year before I make any decisions on switching teams. But I really do believe that all of the new 4-strokes are just as competitive as one another and it'll boil down to the rider at the end.

What a cool time to be a "125" rider! :thumb:
 

Bob Brooks

Member
Jan 6, 2001
367
0
Thanks for the ride report on the new mini thumpers, Nikki. Sounds like a lot of fun. I’ve yet to ride any of the new smaller thumpers, so I’m curious to get on one myself. I had a YZ400F and I’ve ridden 426s and the new CRF450, but never spun a wheel on the 250s yet. I’ve been riding big bikes all my life and currently ride a 300cc two-stroke in hare scrambles and off-road stuff, but I’m thinking about going smaller next time. Those bigger bikes eat me up in the long two-hour races, but sure are fun when I’m fresh.

No idea why the CRF wore you out more than your Yamaha. Might be the ergonomics, might be the stiffness of the aluminum chassis, or it may be that you were riding it harder? Who knows? I had the first generation aluminum frame, the ’97 CR250, and I didn’t care for it much and it did wear me out. But I know Honda has come a long way with the alloy frames.
 

BEEF706

Sponsoring Member
Jan 24, 2002
1,566
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Thanks for the review Niki, I am thinking hard about a 250 thumper, ( even though I am probably too big) probably need to figure the price of some new springs into the crf price, got to ride one out back of the dealer on his little oval dirt area but didnt get to jump it, How much messing around with the clickers did you get to do?
 

Yogurt

~SPONSOR~
Dec 25, 1999
218
0
Nikki- That's odd that you say the KXF and YZF felt lower than the CRF. I'm not sure what the KXF's seat height is, but the YZF is actually almost 2 inches taller than the CRF. The YZF also has 1 more inch of ground clearance than the CRF. Must be the difference in peg to seat height, and the different ergo's. I've never riden any of the other 250's but I love my new CRF250! I think it has easy starting. The CRF does have a tad more compression than the other 250F's though. The KXF and YZF have 12.1:9, while the CRF is 12.9:1. Not much difference, I don't know if you'd be able to notice it while kicking, but maybe.
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
Yeah I'm not sure if the taller seat height feel had to do with the CRF being pretty new still and my 250F suspension pretty worn or what but at 5'5", I'm tip-toeing back and forth while sitting on the CRF and not near as bad on the YZF and KXF. I did measure the CRF seat height out at 37.5 inches over the pegs, but didn't put the tape measure on the other two bikes. I don't 100% trust the seat heights/ground clearances posted on the manufacturers specs because who says Honda and Yamaha measure at the same exact point? I'll get the tape measure on my YZF sometime this week and report back.

Also, Red, Stacy (CRF owner), and myself all thought that the CRF had more compression when kicking it over, so that makes sense with your compression numbers.
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
Beef - the clickers haven't been touched so I assume they are somewhere in the middle - factory settings. You never know though, maybe the $8 a hour kid putting the bike together decided to turn on em.
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
10
The new issue of Dirt Bike Magazine has a "comparison test" of the 250F's. They preferred the Yamaha also. They said it had "the most versatile motor".

The gods have spoken!................. ;)

Actually, it sounds like they are all pretty capable bikes. It will be fun to see how the rest of the world rates them and how reliable the bikes prove to be.

Oh, and WHERE'S THE KTM!
 

WFO 400

Member
Feb 28, 2003
18
0
THESE BIKES RIP!

I have about 6 weekends of trails on mine and I love it. I was die hard kx 250 2 stroke guy before this bike , but now I am 250f rider for life!

it handles insane, feels like a 125 and has power like a smooth 250 2-stroke. It starts pulling hard on bottom and just keeps pulling as long as you keep it twisted.

I found my soul bike!
 

nephron

Dr. Feel Good
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 15, 2001
2,552
0
Would be interesting to see side by side camshaft specs. "Where" the power is on a 4 stroke is almost exclusively dependent upon camshaft timing.

Hotcams, eg, shows a stage 1 and 2 cam for the CRF450. Why they start with so much exhaust timing is a mystery to me, but they obviously don't feel the need to increase it as they go up to the stage 2 cam, where they're just bumping Intake lift a mm or so and adding 6 or so degrees of gross duration. Lobe separation angle is not listed, but is obviously very important.

The reason I'm saying this, is that in a few years, they'll have as many camshaft options for these bikes, as say Engle has for a BBC. You'll be able to pick your power curve for each track, let alone SX vs. MX....and just like jetting, we'll be fiddling with camshaft, mounting advance, etc. changes before each race. This would be a good time to start an aftermarket dirtbike cam company.

If Rich sees this: Why the huge discrepancy b/t Intake and Exhaust timing? Couldn't be exhaust beyond the head, right? Are we talking valves, exhaust port? What?

Nikki--that's the kind of review we need in the mags. Good job.
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1

BEEF706

Sponsoring Member
Jan 24, 2002
1,566
0
Thsnks for the reply nikki, I think I'm gonna get to take one out to J-5 (wide open mx track) Sunday, I'll give the clydsdale report then ;) The "push down " fork test at the dealer didn't feel all that much different than my CR but my forearms haven't been calbrated recently, :laugh:
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
Originally posted by FlyinHawaiin
What bike were you riding before you found your yamaha iron horse???


'01 YZ 125 with every possible mod to try to boost the low end power - including Boyesen Precision Porting motor work (which made a very noticable and positive difference for sure, but just not enough for my liking). If I had to nickname my YZ 125, it would have been "clutch monkey". :confused:
 

srellis

LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 25, 2002
394
0
Nephron....
I hear Clark's in Garden has an RMZ250 they are allowing people to "test" ride.

I haven't been there yet but a friend of mine has. Charles told him to take it out for a spin. He said he went up and down the frontage road for about 15 minutes. If his wife wouldn't leave him he'd get one of those also. He said about 3 minutes after he brought the bike back to the shop the cops pulled into the parking lot. He of course quietly slipped out the side door... :confused:
 

motometal

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Sep 3, 2001
2,682
3
regarding the CRF shifting, for what it's worth on my '03 CR 2 stroke I hated the clutch and shifting when the bike was new, but now that that it is well broken in (plus i've tried a few different oils) i'm quite happy with it.

remember that ride height is very dependant on rear sag, front sag (spring rate vs. your weight) and how the forks are set in the clamps.

More fork bottoming resistance can be easilly had by adding a bit of fork oil, although sometimes at the expense of a bit of mid stroke harshness (definitely worth a try).

Watching an "A" rider at our local track on the CRF250, i'll bet he never let the rpm drop more than 2,000 under redline (at least it sounded this way).  I guess someone riding the bike in that manner would want a cam taylored for high revs, as he's not even using the bottom 2/3 of the range.  When I have riden 450s, I tend to want to lug it more coming through the corners.
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
SEAT HEIGHT COMPARISONS

I measured up some seat heights tonight and this is what I found:


04 CRF 250 (stock suspension/sag/clickers/6-8 hours ride time) - 37.3" above pegs

04 CRF 450 (stock suspension/sag/clickers/6-8 hours ride time) - 37.2" above pegs

03 YZ 250F (stock suspension/sag/clickers/50+ hours ride time) - 37.0" above pegs


I find this all very interesting as I generally hear the Hondas sit around 37" and the Yamahas around 39". My guess is they are measuring at different points. Either that or my 250F has lost a little spunk in the seat height department. :think:


On a side note - Red also rode the CRF and my YZF back to back tonight so I will pump him for some comparisons and add that in the next few days. For those who don't know Red, he's an intermediate/expert MX rider at 225 lbs. and 6'4". So his opinions will probably differ from mine at 130 lbs. and 5'5".
 

marcusgunby

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 9, 2000
6,450
2
I rode 02 YZ125 and it was the tallest bike i have ever sat on, however it was new and the seat was like a brick, maybe the sag was way off as well because it had the worst headshake of any bike ive ridden.
 

steve125

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 19, 2000
1,252
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Nikki, how are you measuring in this seat height comparasion? Seems to me the only way to level the playing field here, is to somehow top out the bikes while on the ground. This would eliminate any sag differences. Then measure from the ground to the top of the seats.
 

nikki

Moto Junkie
Apr 21, 2000
5,802
1
Steve, I measured while the bikes were on the ground, and sagging under their own weight. Extended a stick off the seat above the pegs and measured to that point. All three bikes are virtually at showroom stock settings in the suspension area and the sag is around 100mm for the owner and the amount of free sag at the current race sag settings is between 15mm and 30mm so right in line with where it should be. None of the forks have been moved in the clamps.

04 CRF 250 - came home with 100-105mm of sag for a 145 lb with gear rider. The free sag is at 30mm so the shock spring rate is a little on the stiff side but won't be swapped out.

04 CRF 450 - came home with 95-100mm of sag for a 250 lb with gear rider. The free sag is at 15mm so the shock spring rate is a little on the soft side but won't be swapped out.

03 YZ 250F - came home with 100mm of sag for a 140 lb with gear rider. The free sag is at 30mm so the shock spring rate is a little on the stiff side but won't be swapped out.

So it seems that the seat height comparison should be fairly accurate since the bikes all have stock spring rates and free sag within spec (between .6 and 1.2 inches).

Now I did ride an 04 YZ 450F yesterday that had to sit at least 1 inch higher than my 250F (stock suspension and sag set for a 135 lb with gear rider). So once again, maybe my lower 250F seat height is an exception?
 

jimt_yz400

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Dec 25, 2000
314
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As far as power is concerned, I've been able to squeeze a little more out of the CRF250. I bumped the main up from 160 to 162 and I may go to a 165, but I want to play with the needle first.
My son raced a yZ250F all last year and really loves the new CRF. He said that with the new main jet the CRF will pull longer and not go flat. The YZ250F does pull better on top than the CRF.
I also richened the fuel screw by 3/4 of a turn, from stock (don't know what it is, I need to count the turns that I have it at).
So, I think that we can get more out of the Honda!
Handling: My son is able to turn faster lap times on the CRF than he could on the YZ. He said that it is much easier to throw into turns and rail the outside, even on stock suspension, which he said is just about as good as his MX-Tech that was on his YZ. I sprung the bike for his weight of course. He has some issues starting it but I think that it is still lean on the bottom. I have yet to investigate that issue.
Cheers!
 

BEEF706

Sponsoring Member
Jan 24, 2002
1,566
0
I can now give you a clydsdale (sp?) report on the stock CRF suspension, I will have to go up 2 on the fork spring rate and 1 on the shock, I am a beefy(215) novice mx rider. I got to ride a CRF at a tighter "point and shoot" style track this time and I was a little more doubtful about it's ability to pull my bulk around, my corner speed needs to be higher to clear some of the jumps right out of turns cleanly, but I can say it was a lot of fun! I am thinking a little harder abour the 450, but the 250 is still a possibility.
 

stangale

Member
Dec 19, 2000
12
0
While at the new I-5MX track in Gorman, Ca. the other day, the 04 YZ250F and I happened to pit beside a guy with a KX250F.
Naturally we swapped bikes and did some laps. The Yamaha feels a little larger, has better top end power and better suspension.
The Kaw/Suz is smaller, has a bit better midrange, but the suspension is too soft for me - who weighs only 145 pounds. It would bottom easily and ride too low in the suspension travel at all times. With the suspension fixed there'd be nothing to complain about. It handles great.
On tighter, more technical tracks, my vote goes to the KXF/RMZ (once the suspension is resprung/revalved). On more wide open tracks, or for larger riders, my opinion is that the YZF is tops. (And it doesn't need altering.)
Now if I can just pit next to a CRF250!
Best,
Stan Gale
Los Angeles
 

Chris_S

Member
Nov 25, 2002
143
0
I weigh the same as you, and my OEM '03 CRF450 springs are perfect in my CRF250. Coming off my 450, I also lacked confidence in its ability to clear certain jumps w/ short approaches, but I'm now having no problems. Part of it I feel is that I'm riding it more aggressively (faster cornering speeds, more clutch slippage), while part may have been perception that it felt slower than it was due to the linear powerband.

It was a tougher than anticipated adjustment, but I can't tell you how much I love it now! I raced the 250 in moto 1 and 450 in moto 2 of a race yesterday (250 beginner), and got basically the same results each time, but was much closer to the front w/ the 250 and didn't get as tired. I don't think I'll be dragging my 450 to the MX track much from now on!
Originally posted by BEEF706
I can now give you a clydsdale (sp?) report on the stock CRF suspension, I will have to go up 2 on the fork spring rate and 1 on the shock, I am a beefy(215) novice mx rider. I got to ride a CRF at a tighter "point and shoot" style track this time and I was a little more doubtful about it's ability to pull my bulk around, my corner speed needs to be higher to clear some of the jumps right out of turns cleanly, but I can say it was a lot of fun! I am thinking a little harder abour the 450, but the 250 is still a possibility.
 

rairden

Member
Jun 3, 2003
74
0
Nikki, I noticed you have a video of Midwest Extreme (MO) in your sig. Where do you live b/c I live only 45 miles from the track(KC). I have a few questions for you. I'm a skinny, but very fit, 6'4" 160 lb beginner. My brother & I are downsizing. Our first bikes are 250 class bikes ('01's YZ250 and YZ426F). We are finding out that 125 class bikes are just as fast and we'll have more fun.
You said you shaved a few seconds off you lap times. Seriously, b/c with all this hype about the 250F's I've been hearing from people I just might decide to go with my brother and get the '03 YZ250F instead of what I want--'03 YZ125. I really just need to ride these and compare, but sadly I havn't yet or I wouldn't be here. The thing is is that my brother & I have our bikes in the paper and we plan on buying used 03's in just 1 month or so. I have to make a decision fast and until today I've always leaned toward the ring dingers.
I've seen the dyno results and see how the 250F's have a flatter curve thats above the 125's but both bikes peak the same. And another interesting thing is that at 8,000rpm the 125's make 20hp while the 250F's make nearly 30hp.
 


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