CRF450R versus CRF450X (yes, again)

[fever5]

I've searched for every possible thread on the 450X versus 450R and am left confused on which bike to get. I'll start buy saying I am biased towards getting a 450R. I am 5"11, 150lbs. My current XR400, I can ride without problems, except when I get in really tight trails where I might have to push it out. I find it extremely top heavy, and as others have said, "tank like". The 400 also doesn't have much pop.

I don't race MX. I ride mostly steep hills, and very little flat open paths. I dislike batteries, useless lights and extra weight. I find E starts are more trouble then benefit. I'll never go past 60 mph, so the R gearing isn't a problem. Yet I still have dealers trying to convince me that the X is my bike (maybe because the area I am buying it in is prairie flat land?). I really want something light & powerful as I am not a huge guy (2 strokes are out, because I need the torque for hill climbing on these rocky paths).

Am I missing something or is the R probably the best fit for me? The only thing that would tempt me for the X, is if the maintenance is a lot less (i.e. I want a Porsche not a Ferrari).

Edit: the paths aren't that rocky. maybe hilly dirt roads with a few stones is the better description

 

[Okiewan]

The X is the Porsche, the R is the Ferrari.
Rocks? Go X.
Based on what you've written, get the X.

 

[fever5]

Is the R a lot (like tears of agony) more work than the X? I am naive to the mechanical aspect, but I thought the core of the motor would be mostly the same (aside from gearbox, and some other tuning issues for off road)? The extra 40 lbs on the X is a big concern. I also have a Yamaha XT225 serrow (yes its a lemon), but the weight is a lot better than my tank like XR. I am just afraid the X would have the same weight issues I had with my XR400.

 

[Okiewan]

Sounds like you want someone to rationalize the R for you.
My opinion stands. For the riding you described, the 450X is the right choice.

 

[fever5]

Okiewan, I almost wrote that in my post! Yes deep down I am very much looking for a rationalization of the R, because of the weight issue. I sincerely appreciate your feedback, and your patience. Your persistence, although I am not clear on your exact reasoning (I am sure a seasoned rider would understand), will get me to reexamine the X. The 40 lbs still scare me though, especially due to my size.

 

[SADude]

For your weight I would get a 250F, 4-stroke torque for the hill climbs, but still light enough to throw around. A lot of guys hear are using them for enduro's, which are super technical and hilly.

The modem 250F will more power than you think, the XR400 is a donkey and designed using old technology. I would go for the YZ250F or the WR250 as I feel these are the most reliable. You probably find that the 250F put out equal to or more power to weight than the XR400 and weigh a ton less.

Try and see if you can take one for a ride, 450r, 450x, 250f, etc. and then decide, that is the best way. I have a friend that has the CRF450X and is super happy with it, he says it is the best bike he has ever had and we ride technical, hilly, rocky stuff all the time. That said, he can handle the weight of the bike and the power is right for his weight at 215lbs.

 

[BSWIFT]

Both the R and the X are great bikes. The R will take some additional throttle control offroad where the X will be more plush and a bit smoother on power delivery. For your height and weight, consider the 250R or X. The 250R is one of the most fun bikes I've ever riden. You seem to be leaning towards the Honda which is not a bad thing at all. If you get a chance to ride several different bikes, you'll make a more informed decision. I don't think you could go wrong with the CRF250R. Besides, Okie might be selling his in the not so distant future and his used bikes are like having a factory ride.(shameless plug)

 

[SADude]

CRF250R or YZ250F, same thing I guess. I would go for one if I wasn't 190LBs in my jocks and socks, with kit I am up to around 210lbs. I would even look at the WR250F or the CRF250X, electric start and plush suspension for the rocky hills we ride here, that would be a must, I would hate to be kicking a 4-stoke stuck on a hill.

To be honest I have a friend that ride a WR250F and he weights 250lbs with kit on and he goes everywhere, he gets up hills that the 250 2-strokes can't get up.

 

[fever5]

Thanks for all the feedback. Okiewan may roll his eyes but I am going for the R. I know it will be overkill for power, but I know I will appreciate the lighter weight. I can notice a difference of 10 lbs between different bikes. I am sure 40 lbs will be more profound between the X and the R. I feel pretty confident that the R would be more fun where I ride then the X, especially if I have to push the R out of a bog (unlikely).

 

[Chili]

Not sure where in Manitoba you are riding but I've yet to find any hills that I can't climb on a 2t that people with similar skill can climb because they have a 4t. As far as the R or X I haven't ridden either so I'm not really qualified to comment other than once my kid is done racing I'll be seriously looking at an X just for the headlight factor alone so when I hit the trails darkness isn't an issue.

 

[Chili]

Forgot to mention also that if you are not glued to the bike being a Honda, I would give some serious looks to the KTM Off-Road line up at Greg's Custom in Beausejour. They make some great performance off-road bikes.

 

[fever5]

I live in Winnipeg, but I ride out by Clear Water Bay (Lake of the Woods) on the pipeline. 2 stroke bikes struggle on most trails here. If I rode in MB a lot, I would look at a two stroke because of the hit. Also for the trails I ride, the 35W headlight does very little (as expreience on my XR400). Again, if I was in MB or Baja type terrain where everything is a little more level or at least longer periods before changing elevation, I would like the X. Even the XR400 is fine on these trails, unless you get into a mess, then the weight of it or an X type bike would be a huge mess to deal with.


Edit: I am a Honda junkie for life. I love the torque and reliability of their motors. Also I don't know much about KTM, so that is also a big issue for me.

 

[Chili]

I've always looked at the Hydro line on each side of the highway as you approach Clearwater Bay thinking man that looks like a fun climb! We have cabins the other side of Kenora near Rushing River.

 

[fever5]

I can go on it from about the start of the Clear Water Bay store, all the way to Falcon. When coming from the West, I think you are thinking a section by Red Pine Ridge road. The hills are incredibly steep! They look decieving from the highway. A lot of fun. In some sections if you hit the timing right you can sail over the tops of the hills and land on the down side. If you ever have a chance take your bikes out there. Stage by the McKenzie Portage Fire hall. I think I am probably one of the few dirtbikers out there. Mostly just big quads.

 

[mtk]

Thanks for all the feedback. Okiewan may roll his eyes but I am going for the R. I know it will be overkill for power, but I know I will appreciate the lighter weight. I can notice a difference of 10 lbs between different bikes. I am sure 40 lbs will be more profound between the X and the R. I feel pretty confident that the R would be more fun where I ride then the X, especially if I have to push the R out of a bog (unlikely).

You've also ignored the fact that the X has a more trail-friendly cooling system compared to the R model. Motocross bikes are designed to be ridden at speed, meaning they have decent air velocity across the radiators. At slow speeds they're known to do things like overheat and puke coolant.

The X also has a wide-ratio transmission compared to the R model's close-ratio gearbox. That has nothing to do with top speed and everything to do with having a nice low gear ratio for tight trail work. I'd like to retrofit the bottom two gears out of the 450X into my CR250R for this exact reason.

I know what you mean about the weight, which is exactly why I don't want a bike with camshafts at all. ;)

 

[fever5]

I am aware I neglected the radiator issue. I ride maybe 20-30 km on average. I go out and play, not put or explore and live in a cold climate. Overheating isn't a large issue for me, or so I thought?

I am familiar (but obviously not an expert) with the concept of gear ratios. Wider ratios provide a range of speeds at cost of peak performance, while closed ratio is for a narrow operating speed window, such as motocross racing, to achieve maximum performance. Fortunately for me, I ride more or less at one speed. I don't tour. As far as I know, close ratio does impede the maximum speed. Anecdotally, what else accounts for the X models being able to achieve higher top ends? The same concept is seen in wakeboard boats which typically lack wide ratio transmissons, and cannot go past 40mph, despite having 380 hp motors. However again, I am a complete noob to anything related to dirt bike performance!!! I am just trying to explain my concept of gearing, so maybe you can understand the flaw in my reasoning.

In all honestly, I greatly appreciate the time and effort involved in posting and providing someone with less technical experience, such as myself, with insight. This type of advice has provided strong argument against my pre-rationalized R ideas. However I am hoping the camshaft comment (sarcasm?) wasn't at the expense of my inexperience. Lol, if it wasn't sarcasm then my apologies! I tend to be overly sensitive when on call all night :-(.

 

[mtk]

Your boat analogy is flawed for one simple reason: boats typically do not have multi-speed transmissions.

A close-ratio box has them all bunched together. The X model has a lower first gear than the R model and a taller 5th gear than the R model. What than means is in tight woods the guy on the R gets to fan the clutch constantly in first gear, while the guy on the X just rides in first gear. The X rider can more easily go slower than you on the bottom end and also go faster than you on the top end. The close-ratio gearbox is best suited for MX/SX racing where you want maximum power and acceleration over a limited speed range.

As for cooling, a cold climate doesn't matter; airflow over the radiators does. Start up an MX bike in the dead of winter and leave it on the stand and it WILL overheat and puke coolant. Look at a MX race. The bikes are flying the entire race, which means constant airflow over the radiator. About the only guys who can trail ride like that are national-caliber GNCC-type riders. The R model has the coolant overflow directed to the ground, while the X model has a coolant overflow tank on it. Every time the R gets hot it loses coolant (which results in it overheating sooner the next time), while the X puts it in a tank where it will eventually draw it back into the system.

As for my camshaft comment, I was referring to the weight of four-stroke bikes over two-stroke bikes. Someone suggested a two-stroke KTM off-road model, which is way lighter than the CRF450X and is also designed for the type of riding you do, but you dismissed it out of hand because it isn't a Honda. If you want light weight and designed for off-road riding, the KTM is the ONLY factory option out there. I like Hondas myself and also ride off-road, rather than MX, which is why I'm investigating putting parts of the CRF450X wide-ratio gearbox in my CR250 (along with a coolant recovery tank).

 

[fever5]

I really can't go to a KTM because of the very steep hills.

Would it be feasible to strip an X down? Or would the weight loss be too minimal?

 

[fever5]

I found a good article on the weight issue. X, R, X, R....I seem to be going back and forth. Dry weight is a bad idea for comparison it turns out.

Does anyone know if the the 450X is a lot less top heavy then the XR400? The XR was not fun in tight trails.

 

[SADude]

CRF450X will be lighter than your XR400 and it will be a good woods bike. The R will have cooling issuse. I have a friend that rides the R and I have one that rides the X, The R overheats when the trails get tight and technical the X doesn't, but the bigger radiator are a bit more exposed on the X.

Buy a bike design to do the job you require, I wish I had done that, but it is to late for me to change right now. I still think that a 250F will be better, but then you seem determined that you are going to be on a 450F. As for gearing, the problem with an MX bike is that they have long 1st and 2nd gears and short 4th and 5th gears, designed for the track. Enduro bikes have short 1st and 2nd gear for the slow technical stuff and for hillclimbs and long 4th and 5th gears for the wide open stuff.

My friend Paul, went from a KX250r to a CRF450X and said the only time he notices the weight is when it is really slow and it is feels alot lighter than the weight suggests, because it carries the weight low down.

But like I always say, get what you want to get, because if you don't you will always wonder if it would have been better than what everyone said you should get. The best thing to do is ride them both and make a decision, then you can truely make an informed decision.

I suggest you take a look at the Erzberg Rodeo before dissing a 2-stroke, toughest enduro in the world and most of the guy ride 2-strokes. Hills like you can believe and the 2-smokes win!!!

My next bike KTM250XC or the 300, no doubt about it, purpose built and race ready.

Cheers

 

[fever5]

In a perfect world I would buy a 250X, 450X and a 450R. :-) I think a 250X would be a lot of fun if I were doing really tight stuff all the time. I've been dissapointed with any four stroke 250 I've ridden though. Just personal preference. I am not dissing two strokes, in the hands of an expert rider I am sure they're great. But unless I rode everyday I wouldn't try it. I think I could make a 2 stroke work, but there is something about a torqy 4 climbing a hill. Its no effort.

Thanks for the tip on cooling. Thats the only thing really keeping me from getting an R with modified suspension, wide ratio gear box and Rekluse clutch.

 

[magneto]

CR500s seem to go up most hills pretty well :) Low maintenance too!

 

[mtk]

I really can't go to a KTM because of the very steep hills.

Uh, yeah.

:coocoo:

 

[fever5]

I was upfront in saying I know very little on dirt bikes. I tried to read up on bikes as much as I could by reading forums, bike reviews by magazines, searching for questions, asking dealers and friends. Brand bias + inexperience with ktm reuslt in my ignorance. I am sure I am the only one who is afflicted with this problem. mtk, thank you for being gracious to the novice.

 

[Okiewan]

I really can't go to a KTM because of the very steep hills.

Uhh... ??
Just go buy the R and be done with it.