Pay to Post Model?

  • Do It!

    Votes: 62 84.9%
  • Don't Do It!

    Votes: 11 15.1%

  • Total voters
    73

High Lord Gomer

Poked with Sticks
Sep 26, 1999
11,790
34
I wish it wasn't necessary, but I also wish that people would pick up their own trach at the track.  The sad fact is that most people will only do the minimum necessary.  The hard part is how to make the minimum worthwhile while still making it desirable.

Several excellent suggestions have been made, the ones I really like are:

  • An initial "free posting" time period.  I tend to think a week.  Since we (Okie) try to avoid the "free" email accounts, most people don't have the technical knowledge to create an unlimitted number of email addresses via other means.  If we make it longer, too many people will be able to circumvent the system easily.  Make it shorter, and people won't get hooked.
  • VIP memberships for people we want to hear from, even if we disagree with them.
  • After the initial free time period, maybe still allow people to post once per day, once per week, ... something along those lines.

I also think we should open this up in the general forum and ask for suggestions.  When/if we do, all of us (besides Okie) should remain quiet.  I was very turned off by what that thread about "Why don't you join?" turned out to be.  After the first couple of well explained reasons for joining, the rest just felt like piling on and berating the non-subscribers.  We're looking for ways to make this work, and those that will get it will get it within a few posts.  Restating it 50 times won't get through to the apathetic, only serve to sour the impression of those that might have contributed otherwise.
 

XR3J

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 7, 2001
461
0
I voted to go ahead and do it. I am planning on upgrading to life in the next week or two. I don't post much, usually because I don't have a lot to say, but I sure get a ton of good information and many laughs from this site. I made my first Dirtweek this year and will be going to as many as possible in the future. The comraderie and knowledge on this site is worth the money to me. (I'll go back to my corner now) :thumb:
 

Person8

LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 24, 2001
439
0
What about having different levels of LSTMs? Like a benefactor level or something? I am by no means wealthy, especially with 6 kids to support. It took me a good while to come up with the money for my lifetime membership, but I'd be willing to try and take it to another level by paying some more. This site is definitely worth it to me.

Larry
 

Jeff Gilbert

N. Texas SP
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 20, 2000
2,969
2
I'm not going to vote just yet myself. Probably type my way through and figure it out later.

I think becoming a subscription only forum will lead to the demise of DRN in a hurry. You must have fresh blood in here or it will become stale real quick. Unfortunate as it is, there must also be the ragging on someone posts that pops up from time to time, I think it's a prerequisite of human nature. My take on the concept behind DRN is to introduce people to the world of dirt biking, introduce new friends and spread knowledge. When you limit the number of members, you stifle the concept. You must continue to grow or close the site down and move on.

I believe the key here will involve "creative marketing ." I'm thinking back to when I first registered on DRN. I knew nothing about the place and had just started riding. While "surfing" the web for anything about dirt bikes, mainly what's the most popular brands and if there were any deals to be had out there. I came across an ad for a KX250 I could win in a raffle for only $25. The raffle ticket sales were limited so the chances of me or Brian ( :p ) winning was really good. I sure wanted a chance at winning what ever the Mamba was for only $25. There was only one catch. Before I could send in my money to register for the Mamba, I had to register on DRN. I hit the required keys and made out my check the same day. It was my introduction to DRN. I found myself logging on to DRN several times a day just to see how many people had registered for the drawing. One day I had problems logging in and got real frustrated, actually my daughter was the one having problems. I posted in one of the forums, probably the wrong one, and before I knew it some guy named David (aka Thump) was going way beyond what I considered the call of duty to phone me long distance at his expense to help me out. I didn't know this guy but what a great gesture from a stranger on a BB / dirt bike Internet site. The rest is what we refer to as history.
Ivan mode off.

In a nut shell
This is a suggestion only. Keep DRN as is to a point! Make only the slightest modifications as needed to keep the incentive in place for becoming a supporting member but sweeten the pot.
Here's the big one.
Either purchase products or have sponsors donate them in exchange for promotion, then raffle the products off for profit. Have bid wars for the cool stuff. I'm not talking hats and clocks, I'm talking top end kits, pipes, sprockets, graphics, even bikes. In order to participate in the killer deals you must be a supporting member of what ever the site deems justifiable. It doesn't have to be limited to Dirt Bike stuff only but it might be best. Does any of this sound feasible?

btw. Regarding kids. Tigger is 11 and is only a registered member here. She post's occasionally but I guarantee she will not have the funds to become a STM unless I pay for it and I don't see the need for me to pony up just for her to post a couple of times a month. As she gets older I may consider but if she couldn't post, she wouldn't visit. I don't think it will be any different for most of the other kids here her age.

I do have a stat question for you Okie. What is the median age of the top participates here?
 

rickyd

Hot Sauce
Oct 28, 2001
3,447
0
What about if we were too get something out of the garage that never gets used and put it up for auction on ebay and donate the proceeds too DRN?? Doesn't have too be a big item, but a few bucks here and there may help.. I've learned way too much about bikes on here & would not want too see it not continue too grow..
Rick
 

JPIVEY

Sponsoring Member<br>Club Moderator
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Mar 9, 2001
3,180
0
Originally posted by rickyd

donate the proceeds too DRN??

Why couldn't something like that work? I thought of two things after watching this thread most of the day.

1. I'm a life time supporter ( no commits for the peanut gallery) but yet I don't support it, I paid my one time fee and have been running amuck ever since; I also figure since I been riding for almost 35yrs chances are pretty good I'll be riding another 20, so looking at it that way I am paying just under 0.42 a month, I don't think thats far at all.

2. After reading what Rickyd was eluding to, I started thinking that I am lucking enough to have a little side gig going on, which pretty much pays for itself and allows me to, on occasions to give back alittle to a sport that has given me so much; So if Okie had a little account that people could do what ever they could and then paypal or something to this account maybe that could help offset some of the cost and he wouldn't have to gamble on changing the format of this site.

If that sounds a little stupid, Then I appoligize for thinking so late at night. :confused: :moon:
 

bscottr

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Sep 20, 2001
1,255
0
Originally posted by Okiewan
The idea of extending the grace period should be considered more, it's a good ide and would be more important in the future. A 2 week period may be enough? It's a hassle from a bookkeeping standpoint, but can be dealt with.
Would limiting a perspective STM to say 10 posts be easier to deal with?

Two thoughts on this:

Could you trigger a message via software once they hit 10 posts? Such as: “You must become a subscriber or STM to post in the future.” If so, automating the process could reduce booking.

And

A perspective STM may not gather enough info in a 1 to 2 week period to be convinced that the STM deal is a great value. However, limiting the number of posts may stretch this period out, give folks a good trial period and still reduce the signal to noise ratio/bandwidth.

Other random thoughts:
I support a maintenance fee for LSTMs. I pay a heck of a lot more for other things that have much less value.

Must be at least a subscriber to post in the for sale forum.

Must be at least a STM for DW.
 
Last edited:

23jayhawk

Sponsoring Member
Apr 30, 2002
675
0
Originally posted by Okiewan
I'm looking for some feedback. What do you all think?

Just some thoughts that may be useful to the conversation, and I'll try to make them as objective as possible.

1a. Unless you are planning to expedite taking DRN to a full commercial enterprise, consider posting your financials for FY2002, and a pro forma for 2003. It's useful in public funded entities (Enduro circuits, etc) for the supporting members to know the score, and it could serve to neutralize any latent cynicism.

1b. If you are planning on taking this commercial, then the best policy is to be upfront about it, as soon as possible. This is America, and profit seeking enterprise is a large part of what has made it great, despite what certain left leaning economists think.

2. There is a certain clubbiness feel to DRN, and if you're not in the 'club', one could construe this next step as a continued subsidization of those in the club. To wit, do some rough numbers of posts that are specifically DB related, and compare it to all those that are not. You still have a core group of users whose sole purpose is access to and provision of information related to dirt bikes. They have minimal interest in the fraternity aspect of DRN.

Just some observations - hope it helps move the conversation forward.

Ken
 

yzguy15

Sprayin tha game
N. Texas SP
Oct 27, 2000
1,271
0
Originally posted by Jeff Gilbert
Tigger is 11...post a couple of times a month...if she couldn't post, she wouldn't visit. I don't think it will be any different for most of the other kids here her age.

I do have a stat question for you Okie. What is the median age of the top participates here? [/B]

Sorry Jeff, but I really don't think there are many 11yr olds on here. If tigger's case, it is a little different, however most of the "kids" people are referring to not being able to post are around the age of 14 or 15. Most people any younger aren't going to post much, as you stated. Don't take this the wrong way, I like reading tigger's posts when I catch them, she's a great kid, but I honestly believe she is the exception. :think:

I also would be interested what the median age of top participates are. Maybe top participants includes anyone with over 200 or 300 posts? Maybe more? I'd be willing to be that it is somewhere around 32 or 34. That seems to be the average, with about equal parts over 45 and under 25.
 

mx547

Ortho doc's wet dream
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Nov 24, 2000
4,787
102
Originally posted by Okiewan

Here's the last 30 Days (and he's been gone 3(?) of them.

do you think that he's having dt's yet?

i like jeff gilbert's ideas. i certainly don't like the idea of a maintenance fee for lifetimers. the sole reason i that i signed up for lifetime was the fact that i would never have to pay again.
 

Okiewan

Admin
Dec 31, 1969
29,555
2,237
Texas
Even more good input! Thanks, it helps!

I'm looking into hacking a way to either limit a new user's number of posts, by post count or time period. That may be a good compromise.
 

Ol'89r

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 27, 2000
6,961
45
Okie.

I think you should do it. But, like others have suggested, there should be a free grace period. At least a month. This would give people time to see what DRN is all about. Ya never really know what you had til you lose it.

When I found DRN I was pretty new to the internet and I probably would not have paid to stay. Now, three years later, I can't tell you how much fun I have had here. Not to mention having aprox. 35 new riding buddies that I didn't have 3 years ago. But, I did have to go through a learning period to get comfortable with posting.

The VIP idea is good for those that want to share their wealth of knowledge with us. Maybe a one year free ride for them renewable at your discretion.

I will gladly pay $39.00 a year to see this site go on.

BTW. My $39.00 for next year is coming your way. :thumb:

Whatever your doing, it seems to be workin'. Keep up the good work. :worship:
 

Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 28, 2001
4,704
0
Re: Kids
At least in my post, I was referring to the 14-18 year old crowd. Sure there are a few kids like tigger, but I think that the vast majority of "kids" posting/active here are the teenagers that could pay for a subscription if they really wanted to. There's always the gift option. Or spend an afternoon going door-to-door collecting returnables. We're all familar with the girl-scout / boy-scout / little league / soccer fund-raisers to help pay for uniforms. How do all these teens pay for their cell-phones, movie tickets, video games, etc.?

Also, can you even register here if you are under 13? A lot sites don't let you if under 13.

Re: Trial Membership
It took me more than a week to get hooked. I slowly got back into riding over a 6 month period. During that time I'd go weeks on end without visiting DRN. As I got closer to getting a bike, I spent more time online - about 95% just reading and learning. Needless to say I was amazed!

I like the idea of a month free membership. Or free unlimited reading, but no posting. Or free for up to x number of posts (5?) per month.

Re: Subscription Fees
Like most here, I also feel somewhat guilty with getting away with a $109 lifetime fee. I get way more value here compared to the AMA, and that's $39 per year, or $750 lifetime. I think that DRN lifetime fee needs to be more in-line with other clubs (but not $750!). Or is a lifetime deal really in the best long-term interests of DRN. Perhaps a yearly renewable fee of say $50 would be better for the overall cashflow of DRN.

Re: 3409 have posted since 9-1-2002
Is that number of distinct users that have posted, or 3,409 cummulative posts? If unique, I'm surprised/impressed. If there are that many unique members posting, then the upside potential for new subscribers is higher than I thought.

All of this is a little hard to speculate without having access to analyze all the numbers like Okie does. What existing revenue streams offer the most potential? Advertising? DRN logo store? Subscriptions? DirtWeek? And I wouldn't feel like DRN doesn't need to earn a nice profit off things like DW. I imagine that it is a ton of work, coordination, and effort by a lot of good people, and it appears that it's getting more popular each year. Use the proceeds from DW to help support the DRN site throughout the rest of the year so that we don't have to worry about stuff like this as much.

Finally, a big thank you Okie, the admins, mods, founding members, chapter coordinators, and everyone else that has helped grow this site into what it is today. You should be very proud of it and what you've accomplished!

:thumb:
 

dkb

Sponsoring Member
Apr 6, 2000
93
0
I think a person should get a set amount of free post when they first find this site. I found DRN via. Canadian Dave’s Just KDX site. :thumb: I don't own a kdx anymore, (but I still lurk in the kdx sub. form every now and then) And I do way more reading than posting. I spent a lot of coin doing the mods. That was suggested on the kdx site. (That last part was for any advertisers that might read this post!) I will continue to support this site for the information and entertainment value alone. Darin
 

Okiewan

Admin
Dec 31, 1969
29,555
2,237
Texas
Is that number of distinct users
Yes.
What existing revenue streams offer the most potential?
Advertising was the original model, but like most other dot coms, falls way short. Even though DRN has as many readers as the number 1 dbike pub, it's nearly impossible to convince advertisers it's a better deal. Let's say you put a $6,000 full page ad in Dirt Rider Mag. It has the potential to be seen by 150,000 readers. Can DR Mag tell you how many people actually saw it and how many times? No. DRN can. There are endless reasons why effective, targeted web advertising beats paper, the old school just doesn't get it. At least not yet. If you convince them to get on board, how do you value it? I see ad rates from $10 to $1000 per month on the web. The most exposure a company can get on DRN costs less per month as a 1 inch tall, B/W ad in the back of Dirt Rider lol! Think DRN is a better deal? You'd think it would be a no-brainer.

Bottom line is this; the income has to be generated by the subscribers/STM's and what advertising we can land.

The DRN Store? That's generated exactly $120 since it went up. It wasn't intended to be a money maker, just an easy way to make DRN stuff available to those who want it. There is a small "commission" amount paid on each item. The item costs are high, doen't leave much room for mark-up, but hey, it's a hands-off deal, no inventory, no minimum order qty's, etc.
 

KelvinKDX

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Aug 25, 2000
1,622
0
i vote to have people PAY to post.

But if at all possible i do not think that you should do so until they have posted XX number of times or have been posting for a period of around 3 months (not 1 week).

I found this site when i was buying my first (in many years) bike and my wife was getting her very first bike.

I stumbled on to something called the MidWest Spode Fest 2000 (MWSF2K) now DW. It wasn't too far away and sounded like a pretty cool event. I would have paid to join the site to go to the event as long as it was a reasonable fee (say $35 annually). After MWSF2K i began to post and use DRN much more - it took me a while to learn about my bike and just how usfull DRN can be.

If it was 1 week or get out - i may have gone elsewhere.

I felt no pressure to become a LTSM and thought that $109 was a bargan. I agree that there should be some sort of annual maintenance fee - understnading that a site like this can not run without $$ coming in.

So Okie - i think many people will pay - you just have to make sure that they believe that what they are paying for is of worth before they run off. AS you know - once you get us hooked you can not shake us - even after beating with a stick.

If you could make the age (birthday) input a determinating factor as to if members have to pay maybe we could let the young ones (12 and below) have a free ride. Once they hit the teens - make them pay.

my $.02
 

Jeff Gilbert

N. Texas SP
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 20, 2000
2,969
2
Originally posted by Okiewan
I'm looking into hacking a way to either limit a new user's number of posts, by post count or time period. That may be a good compromise.
With all respect, I think you'll be sorry. I believe you are asking the wrong people, what you are considering has no real affect on those of us here so it doesn't matter, we have nothing else to gain. The ones it will affect are the ones that don't see this and they are the ones you are dependent on. They are the potential subscribers.

You can't come right out and ask, pretty much the way it has been done in the past, why they don't subscribe, people are very defensive when it comes to loosing privileges and it will only deter future growth. If it were my site I would make the changes gracefully and only inform on a need to know basis. In other words lead them to where they need to be. As I said before, it was the raffle for JG was what caught my eye. I had no idea who JG is and at the time really didn't care, the chance to win a motorcycle for $25 was all I was interested in. That was my incentive. Of coarse I almost feel ashamed to admit that part after I understood the meaning behind it all.

The way the Internet operates, there are still so many "free" sites with seeming limitless access. DRN is special but it takes quite some time for the average person to realize this. IMO, you are going to have to entice potential subscribers to pony up a lot sooner and what better ways to do so than make them see the value. What you are going to have to do is come up with a means to make people give up their cash as soon as they walk in the door or shortly afterwards. (Like I don't need to tell you that) My suggestion of offering something people can purchase directly on line from DRN at a price that's unheard of as an enticement.

Here's my example:

There are X number of RM owners out there. Every one of the RM's will need a kitty litter handle that cost $15 everywhere else. This is something that has to be replaced about every 2 months so demand is going to be high. A potential subscriber surfs the web and comes across DRN and notices we have a couple of them on auction for $3 and along with that we also have Barbie stickers and tow ropes. The only catch is you have to be a registered subscriber to bid on the items and the bidding closes in 2 days. There are other items as well so the chances of needing something else from here is pretty good. This could work the same for a raffle. The total bill will be $10 for the products and $12 for subscription, $22. The person can subscribe, have a chance to win the bid and still save $15. You now have several new subscribers that registered to win, the cost of the products was pretty much a wash but the subscription is directly in the DRN kitty. Registration is still free. The subscriber now can bid on other items that come up until the subscription is up for renewal. At that time it will start over yet a bond will have began to develop and for a flat fee the subscriber can register for a year or a lifetime and not have the hassle of re subscribing.

This may not be what you are looking for but the fact is DRN is a business that has to generate an income otherwise it will go down the tubes. It must be self-supporting. The trick is getting people to want to sign up and put their money where their mouth is. Hell, it took me 2 years to pay my part. If not for the raffle and free registration in the first place, I would have ever been back. It took months of posting before I ever considered hooking up with other DRNers and it was still months after that and a DW before I financially supported DRN.

Best of choices Okie, I'll be here. I hope others have the same opportunity as I to experience what DRN is all about.
 

marcusgunby

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 9, 2000
6,450
2
This is one of the hardest things to achieve-you need more money but people dont understand why they have to pay for anything on the net-you can get antivirus programs, firewalls and so much more for free.I fear it will put off some people with a vast knowledge of mx but i know this wont pay the bills-my only constructive advice is to aim to get a small amount off many menbers-maybe even $1 or 2 a month(instead of yearly) as all can afford this, if you try to get bigger amounts i believe people will be turned off as they will not understand the need.

And to add my bit on the ganging up-i was ashamed when i saw the Gcooper thread-it was obvious what was happening and it should have been locked-if i was a non member it would have made me not walk but run away.
 

truespode

Moderator / Wheelie King
Jun 30, 1999
7,978
249
I think becoming a subscription only forum will lead to the demise of DRN in a hurry. You must have fresh blood in here or it will become stale real quick.

The fresh blood will come... just a little slower at first. At Mototalk they were really slow after going pay to post... now the membership in increasing and it seems to be doing quite well. It has a much more clubbier feel than DRN but that is part of the attraction to those that will pay.

Having said that. I don't like the idea of pay to post. However, I cannot see any other way DRN can generate revenue. From my personal dislike of it I say Don't do it but I support it if it happens. I don't like that MT is pay to post but I support it. That is just how life is... nothing is free.

Ivan
 

Philip

Dirtweek Junkie
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Feb 15, 2002
878
0
I'm for it Okie. It's a small price to pay for such value information and the pool of knowledge to draw it from. Try buying the books or going to class to gain the same info and it would cost a lot more. :thumb:
 

Jeff Gilbert

N. Texas SP
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 20, 2000
2,969
2
Okie, you have the stats to look at and only you can make the most informed decision. It is unfortunate that there is no real "proven plan" to follow. Everything I have suggested is coming from my uneducated perspective. I make notice that my ideas will be a pain in the butt and possibly not the right choice for DRN but they are suggestions none the less. It just took me so very long to put up my share and I'm a pretty generous person, I hope the other members are quicker to react than I was.

Limiting the number of posts may in fact cut down on your expense but will it quickly entice new paying members? I don't really see how in the short run. Over the long haul things may turn around, like Ivan said, but how much time are will willing to wait? I think the ultimate goal here would be to rapidly increase income more so than cut expenses, though it never is a bad idea to spend less as a means to increase income. I'm sure you can come up with an amicable plan after all, you did come up with DRN.
 

bscottr

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Sep 20, 2001
1,255
0
Originally posted by Okiewan
I got the post limiting hack done and tested.
Damn...you that fast on the track? :thumb:

Originally posted by bscottr
Must be at least a subscriber to post in the for sale forum.
I need to clarify this...I meant to say "subscriber to sell". Anyone should be able to purchase.
 
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