District Cards

[wardy]

Bill

thats exactly what we are trying to accomplish. YOu scan your card in signup and it "places" you in the proper class. No more bull. But to get ALL the districts in AMA and ALL the tracks to adhere to the same set of standards is like a "crap" shoot!

D-18, D-15 may not like D-17 style rules and vise versa. it will take time to unify and uniform the whole system that took 20+ years to get so screwed up. Mainly it has to be a hell of alot better organized, we are working on it, but it will take time. Thats why James is so correct on this........we have to change the rider's thought pattern. Not to mention how COOL it would be if the manufacturers would pay top 15 contingency in the A class and not pay it at all to C class. Isn't the cherry suppose to be on TOP?
NOW before everyone busts my butt on how much this and C class pays fees to, here is my thought.
Sure they do, but an A rider has likely paid the dues alot longer. Also isn't the fight to be a good rider, or be the best you can be the whole real reason we all race? If we make all the goodies available to the beginner classes, nothing is "SPECIAL" when it comes to the better riders. The process gets undermined by promoters wanting to attract riders from other places. Hence the elevation of awards for the less skilled riders.
C riders feel jilted with my concept, I have had the arguments every year for ten years........but ....................many of us "older" riders have walked the path i speak of. Those are the riders i still see in out sport and the ones that have staying power. The younger riders don't have the lasting qualitys that I used to see.

I know I know its the "i walked ten miles to school in the snow barefoot" stuff, but i am telling you its the truth as i see it.

Honestly give me 20 riders that will ride/race for 15 years, anyday, before i get 60 riders that ride a couple of years and quit.


so thats enough of that.

wardy
"older, average,fat..st, guy?"
28 years racing, 33 years riding
service honda Megacross FVOR

 

[thorman75]

absolutely and i totally agree.but over the years ive(let me change that to we've) seen all kinds of things.guys not old enough for the age group,entering 125's in the open class etc etc.and ger you know the guys im talking about.remember the day a little bird whispered in my ear at casey about a guy noy old enough to race +40 and beat me by 1 position,when i went to protest he was at sign up trying to get his money."i'll get my drivers license" then he got in his truck and left.the way some of these guys think i cant figure out.then they play the state game.got a A card in dist 15,apply for a C card in dist 14.suppose david went to service and picked up a new 250,and was gonna ride C,you wouldnt be able to stick a boot in his rear end cause mine would already be there.:cool: and thats the way it should be.and then there's the ya hoos who played the class game at the nuke series so they could go home with a trophy."lets sign up for 30A theyve got less than 10 riders,and they pay 10 positions"geeezz,i even got a phone call when he got his new dist card:whiner:and james just because the book says once a A never a C dosent mean it wont/doesnt happen.and i feel for the true C rider.he's getting ripped off.watch a C class race especially a big one like a nuke series.here comes 5 or 6 guys with a quarter of a lap lead on the first lap,theyre doin all the jumps.no mistakes.begineers my a##.and the stop watch puts them in the top 10 of the B class

 

[rollingp]

Dats rite

 

[James980]

Originally posted by thorman75
and james just because the book says once a A never a C dosent mean it wont/doesnt happen.

Wouldn't it be sweet if we could assume what's written in the rule book was what happens?

What I don't get is with a sport as physically demanding and dangerous as motocross, there are so many forces out there (riders, tracks, district officials, etc.) that got their panties all bunched up over the "I gotta kick someone's butt today and get myself another trouphy!" mentality, that they won't just deal with this sandbagging thing once and for all and get it over with. Just look at how rabid Wardy is over this issue, and he's the freakin' district MX director! Think about how ingrained this thinking must be if this guy can't just rip it out by the roots!

As someone said, we can't be bigger wussies than the skeet shooters association, can we?

Stick with no district awards for C -- maybe rename C "beginner". Forget D class like they run at Casey...just expands the problem. Only give plaques to C. For B, under 10: Trophy to third. Over 10: Trophy to fifth (maybe plaque to eighth). No money in B. Bigger money in A. Pay to 10th.

Goes for 50 classes too -- the trophy for everyone thing might make the soccer moms in the crowd happy, but I want my kid to learn he has to do well to win something...what a concept! If you must, give the rest of the kids a dirt bike toy and "certificate of participation" or something (laminated or the conditions at an mx track will destroy it) -- this is coming from a guy with a kid who's in his first year in 50 sr. off the PeeWees no less and expects to be cleaning up the rear for some time to come.

Now that we've dealt with that, what about this five year old bike rule in the "vintage" class?!?

James

PS, Wardy...Sorry about the mini dad pic, but Mike's head is so damn thick it's DOT and SNELL approved...honestly, it is.

 

[rollingp]

One of the problems I see in racing is there are to many classes now.
When I started in 76 it was A class and B class.
If you didnt qaulify for the second class you ran a consi race.
It worked good.
Hell I was 13 years old racing B and my first few races I had to race the consi.
Now there are so many classes the tracks run out of time and the second moto gets cut down to 4 laps or something stupid like that.
I spend alot of money to race and stay involved in this sport and it pisses me off to have the second moto cut to less laps.
Im for running 7 laps min.
Get rid of some of these younger age group classes 16-24, 125 jr etc .
Those should have never been started.
vet should be vet thats it.
25+ dont need that.
Vet should be 30+ and thats it.
You cant hang, you cant hang.
The pay outs will be better cause the gates will be full and the racers will get seat time.
I dont know how we got to this point in racing but it sucks the way its structured.
Money for the promoters and chump for the racers.

 

[thorman75]

well when i started there was no B class.it was all displacement,we didnt even have a rubber band at first.in the 125/250 class there were so many bikes on the line it was crazy.it was a big deal just to get to the 1st turn without crashing or being taken out.but alot of this stuff is interwoven.i myself cant figure why they(a promoter) would stagger start +40 with 125A.after 2/3 laps these hotdogs are on you.and i dont like being jumped on top of.i knocked myself silly at a nuke race not because of the race but getting out of jimmy polvonys way.most not all but most +40 riders dont need to be on the track with 125 pro's especially when there's money involved.and james there's no money in B.if you except money,you just declared yourself A

 

[rollingp]

I dont know Bill Byron has a pretty crappy starting area and first turn.
I dont know what all the hype is about that track.
After racing there I can see why you would get nailed in the first turn area.
That place needs to be brought up to at least AMA rule standards for track width etc.
I only go there because of the vet series.
Even crummy Reads has a better first turn and whats with the
watering on the downside of the concrete like hills/ jumps?

 

[thorman75]

i didnt get it in the first turn.it was a staggered start.polvony was lapping me,i had another +40 rider behind me,i dove to the inside of a right hand sweeper to let polvony by,but didnt want the other +40 rider to go by too,i looked over my shoulder to check his position before the downhill jump,and hit the snow fence with my front brake lever.over the bars on my head(again).i should be concentrating on the race(my race) instead of worring about getting in the way of an aspiring 125 pro.the 1st turn pile ups i was referring to were at K+R raceway in valpo,1970,71.check out bitunjacs vintage tape too see what im talking about

 

[rollingp]

Oooooh gotta see it!

 

[James980]

Originally posted by thorman75
and james there's no money in B.if you except money,you just declared yourself A

I got $30 for third place in open C at a harescramble at Buffalo Range in 2000.

And where did I say I expect money for B? I said exactly the opposite.

James

 

[thorman75]

lets get this right.you got 30 dollars CASH(not honda bucks or a gift certificate) for a hare scramble at buffalo in 00(C class).i didnt mean it to say you expected money for B(i said there's is no money in B/C).cash payouts are for A classes ONLY.B/C are trophy classes.if you did receive a cash payout WHO promoted that race.im heading over to service honda this afternoon,im sure our dist president will be interested in cash payouts for C class hare scrambles in his district.although there are/were combined classes like open,where A/B riders(no C here) run together as a semi pro race(this is MX).but a B rider that excepts a cash payout thereby is declaring himself a A rider.and there have been cases where guys took the cash,and when they applied for their new cards guess what.no more B.just signing up for a A class race is considered advancing yourself.like i posted earlier.riding 30A so they could get a trophy for last place.then when they got their new cards the crying started.

 

[James980]

Originally posted by thorman75
lets get this right.you got 30 dollars CASH(not honda bucks or a gift certificate) for a hare scramble at buffalo in 00(C class)

No trophies. Cash money, with pictures of dead presidents on it. First got $50, if I remember right, then $40, then $30, etc. Hell, I think they actually paid to 10th. I think they had "cash payouts" in their flyers, but everyone was pretty surprised by it anyway. (Honestly, I would rather have had the trophy...I'm dropping >>$100+ for a day of racing, what they hell does $30 mean to me...and my wife can take the money, but she won't get the trophy, dammit!)

BUT -- big BUT -- I think this was one of their outlaw harescrambles. In 2000 and 2001, they had a couple outlaw scrambles and a couple sanctioned ones, I believe. I rode at all of them but don't remember exactly which was which. But outlaw or not, doesn't matter, most of the same people show up and the awards still help feed the sandbagging mentality.

I do remember for a fact that the sanctioned one Fredette ran last year only gave trophies -- and then only to fourth place (the greedy *******! ). That's the way to run a race. (Although it's easier to say that when you're one of the few who made it under the wire;) )

James
James

 

[thorman75]

hey james ive been to a few of jeffs fun days.and us older guys supplied the trophies(our old ones).also when i started racing many moons ago,they gave 5 trophies per class.thats it, 5.there could be 50 guys in the 250 class,no matter 5 trophies.winning a trophy was a big deal.i still remember my first,3rd place 125,only jap bike that trophied that day by the way,everything else was pentons.that was 72.it took me 3 years to win a trophy.

 

[James980]

Originally posted by thorman75
i still remember my first,3rd place 125,only jap bike that trophied that day by the way,everything else was pentons.that was 72.it took me 3 years to win a trophy.

My first was 1990. Sixth place out of 25-30 or so in 250 C at some fairground race in Ohio. I just went up to see my place...didn't even expect a trophy. Still have it. I probably remember as much from that race as I do from my last one. Took 9-1/2 years off riding after that year.

Raced several MXes in 1999 and 2000 here in D-17, and it's amazing how much faster guys are nowadays (or how much more sandbagging is going on). And my parents have old videos to prove it!

Best I've gotten in 250 C up here is 10th. (Got a 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th in Open C harescrambles, but that's a different game.) However, with my son now in the 50 sr. class and no babysitter, I probably won't race MX much, if at all. Still have a MX classification on card, though... the new +25B because I have no use for 250 C anymore even if I still won't crack the top five, don't feel like I should race "Trailrider" in harescrambles (no C MX if 250B in scrambles), and don't quite qualify yet for+30.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.

James

 

[Layton]

(Honestly, I would rather have had the trophy...I'm dropping >>$100+ for a day of racing, what they hell does $30 mean to me..

Spoken like a true C rider. ;) I'd take money, a T-shirt anything before a trophy. All of my trophies are stored somewhere in the garage atic because my wife got tired of dusting them. (And I can't really blame her)

I never have been able to figure out why the enduro riders get the "A" placed on their AMA cards but "A" motocross riders don't.:confused:

That "A" stops a lot of sandbagging although there are ways around it too.

When I started riding hare scrambles in Illinois (about 1974) there was no B class. Just A. As a beginning rider that's kind of discouraging but it does make you ride harder.:) It also cuts down on the cheating. ;)

 

[thorman75]

no need to dust those trophies do like aj and myself.take em to the shop and leave em at the parts counter.they leave them around for awhile then throw them out.there was a track in indiana that would buy them back for a few bucks.dont know if they still do it (n.webster):confused:

 

[wardy]

there is a charity

event in MI that uses donated trophys. I am going to shiip some of mine up to him. He goes by fatherand son in here.

on all this other stuff lets kind of list this out and see.

1. To many classes..........classes which the riders continually complain to have so a track (evil promoter) trys to accomodate the rider and make his races the best possible.

2. Sandbagging........it plain starts in the mini classes. continually baby something you end up having a baby. there are not many tommy hofmasters in this world.

3. riders actually think its a god given right to run 2 classes, but for dam sure not back to back. have to have a min of 2 motos in between.

4. track is a little muddy at around 2pm, races start 6pm. sun is out, its 75 degrees and not a cloud left in the sky, they come up and ask.....are you going to cancel its a little muddy........(sorry evil promoter thought)

5. A pro or A rider doesn't ride for 15 years, signs up to ride B class......anyone know a rider that may have rode for team tamm years ago doing this? thats my next task at hand i think.

6."Rabid District Official" would not have to deal with this if the honor system was truely adhered to. Not to mention the buck stops here, at this rabid official's desk. I have the power to "guide riders" into doing the right thing, I don't have the power to fix all the rider's and tracks agendas that have formulated this nightmare.......of which i am also an evil promoter and a part of.

7. As i sit here and right a letter to a couple of mini dads that got into a fight at a track two weeks ago. 50cc parents of course. James you wonder why I have a slight attitude for things when people don't act like everyday adults should normally behave>? HA! and below now not only am I the "evil promoter but a director with panties in a bunch! LOL thats funny, you know it used to get me mad but not anymore its basically just more work. Honestly I am not that big of a force, unless you get between me and the mcdonalds drive up window........

What I don't get is with a sport as physically demanding and dangerous as motocross, there are so many forces out there (riders, tracks, district officials, etc.) that got their panties all bunched up over the "I gotta kick someone's butt today and get myself another trouphy!" mentality, that they won't just deal with this sandbagging thing once and for all and get it over with. Just look at how rabid Wardy is over this issue, and he's the freakin' district MX director! Think about how ingrained this thinking must be if this guy can't just rip it out by the roots!

to finish this a little,.... think about this one......

My insurance dude told me today.......hopefully the rates won't double AGAIN! Thats right guys, last year AMA went through an insurance crisis that is NOT OVER!~ everyone's policy doubled last year........03 don't look good. I thought there was a multi-year plan as it is there is only a 1 year deal.
If this continues be ready to see tracks, riding areas, closing or going to ridiculous rates to pay the premiums. Just to give ya a clue......last year one of my quotes was 18k for 9 months. that same company is the only one that will and is insuring AMA stuff now.....its pretty ugly.



so above is only a small taste of what is going on, but here are some of the good points.

1. to many classes........more winners, more riders riding, more places for riders to find a class. granted it doesn't promote better riders or better race days. what it does is, it pays the bills, sells more motorcycles, and gives the paying customer more accomadations for his money. THis of course doesn't hold water with the over 25 crowd. but its facts.

2. I have met the best people on earth in the last 30 years. I pretty much never had a life unless it invovled off road somthing. Alot of my experiences have been formed on d-17 tracks. We have one of the best organizations in the country. we always don't get along, but for a group of promoters and clubs this district has lasted and been tested by time.

3.on that same line, when the surrounding districts all struggled and were practically non-exsistant, D-17 was still grinding away. Strong tracks and clubs are as critical as strong rider base, one hand washes the other.

4. LTM, U.S.51MX, Byron, Joliet, Mendota, all have some form of contingency...in fact all most all of the tracks have it in one form or another.
This is simply because of strong rider turnouts and strong tracks.

SO when those look around, and compare, i think we have it pretty good.

lets see....... 27k riders signed up and raced MX in D-17 last year......totally something like 28k+ including all forms of racing......... record turn outs at many of the tracks. over 500 at the first nuc, over 400 at the first Illini, over 300 at our first nite race last summer.

something has to be working ok?

my soap box just crumbled below so its time to shut up.


:think

 

[thorman75]

that my friend,was well said.:) now if we could get Maico to build a bike as good as that 500af

 

[James980]

Re: there is a charity

Any problems in D-17 (sandbagging, etc.) are problems that are everywhere. All else equal, this is one of the country's stronger districts for MX, in my opinion. For everything to be fixed, and absent common honesty and integrity among adults, the MX director would need a lot more power that is probably unprecedented anywhere in the country as far as AMA MX goes.

Think those mini dads would like to be interviewed for Mike's column? How about a mini dad "wall of shame"? We'll make sure we drag cameras along to the tracks this year and post pictures of the real assholes out there. That'd be funny as hell.

James

Originally posted by wardy
"Rabid District Official" would not have to deal with this if the honor system was truely adhered to. Not to mention the buck stops here, at this rabid official's desk. I have the power to "guide riders" into doing the right thing, I don't have the power to fix all the rider's and tracks agendas that have formulated this nightmare.......of which i am also an evil promoter and a part of. As i sit here and right a letter to a couple of mini dads that got into a fight at a track two weeks ago. 50cc parents of course. James you wonder why I have a slight attitude for things when people don't act like everyday adults should normally behave>? HA! and below now not only am I the "evil promoter but a director with panties in a bunch! LOL thats funny, you know it used to get me mad but not anymore its basically just more work. Honestly I am not that big of a force, unless you get between me and the mcdonalds drive up window........

 

[wardy]

hey james

in a perfect world wouldn't it be nice that the MX director could focus on things to improve the sport as opposed to being equal to a crossing guard?
We prolly spend 50 hours a year easy dealing with advancement and advancement syndrom, its part of the job, but its one of the hard parts.

to bad friday's weather has to end friday nite! but spring is close!

wardy

 

[sfc crash]

beans to all that..i race 'cause it's fun.D17 provided me with an arena (a gooood one)...personally,i think that's pretty cool.don't get me wrong,heck i hate the national ama for what they did to dirt track,but they ,in my opinion,got it right with everything else.here's why a "cherry" is posting, i am now a member of D17,that gives me a voice,if i see something wrong, i'll say so. maybe that's stupid,but i'm big on the "now a member,make a difference"even if i might be "uninitiated"

 

[James980]

Re: hey james

Originally posted by wardy
but spring is close!

You can smell it!!!

James

 

[rollingp]

Wardy it probably took you longer to write that then it would to contact the four tracks that are holding the VET race this year and get them to check cards.
That was a run on sentance "whew"

 

[wardy]

I give you a run on sentence.......LOL

When asked last year why they didn't check cards the reply was "its just for fun it don't really matter",one track will hopefully check them, three others probably don't know my name and wouldn't care if they did...........


and for that matter i have over 170 races, and around 27,000 riders signed up to deal with, that are d-17 events, and are at d-17 tracks, 4 races, 3 of which are in other states, hardly compares with that, no matter how i personally feel about the whole situation........not to mention they are not district point paying events.