Enduro format
- Thread starter EnduroRdr
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SpeedyManiac
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- Aug 8, 2000
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FIM/ISDE rules. Ride your bike all day with some speed tests every once in awhile. To win you need to be fast (special tests), consistent (multiple tests) and smart (transfer sections, keeping the bike together.
- Thread starter
- #5
I'm with you Jon! ISDE is international and a great format. But in GOAE (Good Old American Enduro) it used to be all about trying to finish and better yet finish while trying to stay on time.
(Keyword - Time)
New format is cool but should have had a new name!
(Keyword - Time)
New format is cool but should have had a new name!
rmc_olderthandirt
~SPONSOR~
- Apr 18, 2006
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- 8
It seems that there are enough other "go as fast as you can" type events, why do they need to screw up the timekeeping event?
Rod
Rod
SpeedyManiac
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- Aug 8, 2000
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I'm curious, how many of you have ridden a start control enduro with special tests (ie. WEC or ISDE rules)?
SpeedyManiac said:
:nod:
I went to a H/S and they had combined the two, restart enduro and a H/S. Came in on my first lap and they said go take a break. I'm like "WHAT", they said yeah come back when your minutes comes back up. I went back got a drink ate something gassed up and went back to the start. Then they started calling off numbers, when mine was up I got on the line and they said go???? Weird stuff I'm telling you.
hi:
new guy here but thought id throw in my 2 cents here :),I thought old school all the way then went and rode a restart format and thought you know that was pretty straight up racing no bs ,but i kinda missed the time keeping then rode the 83rd annual jackpine Enduro Sunday (one of the coolest Enduros by the way see the pics of the 1st row of Pentons way to go Ted,Denny and Duane !! (all70/s vintage all rode the whole race), Anyway i had a blast timekeeping again and loved it but when i looked at my class winner (old fat guyb class no real speesdsters here)and his buddy posting a 1 and 2 in a section that the overall winner national AA guy dropped 6 in this check with one of the best scores in the section well, I see the point people are making , its riders and situations like this that have prompted the change i'm sure too bad the guy who took the class trophy didnt have the kahonas to admit it :(
Oh well I guess thats the fun PArt of the game for alot too i like both acually a hard vote for me although i have ot admit to staying old scool and voting for the timekeeping :)
new guy here but thought id throw in my 2 cents here :),I thought old school all the way then went and rode a restart format and thought you know that was pretty straight up racing no bs ,but i kinda missed the time keeping then rode the 83rd annual jackpine Enduro Sunday (one of the coolest Enduros by the way see the pics of the 1st row of Pentons way to go Ted,Denny and Duane !! (all70/s vintage all rode the whole race), Anyway i had a blast timekeeping again and loved it but when i looked at my class winner (old fat guyb class no real speesdsters here)and his buddy posting a 1 and 2 in a section that the overall winner national AA guy dropped 6 in this check with one of the best scores in the section well, I see the point people are making , its riders and situations like this that have prompted the change i'm sure too bad the guy who took the class trophy didnt have the kahonas to admit it :(
Oh well I guess thats the fun PArt of the game for alot too i like both acually a hard vote for me although i have ot admit to staying old scool and voting for the timekeeping :)
I rode two restart and three traditional enduros last year and I don't have a problem calling the Restart Format events Enduros as both formats are a blast to ride.
I support AR and DB to run the restart format for the National series as I believe it is the fairest way of determining who is the fastest on single track trails using an enduro style stagger start and check points. I know enduros are not traditionally about being the fastest but also being smart. What AR and DB has been able to do last year was make the National events more consistent, event to event, in terms of taking out event mistakes and possible local favoritisme to local riders. The winner and champion of the National series is truly the most constant and the fastest rider on all types of single track as measured event to event as well as within an event over the year.
Having said the above, I really like the traditional format at the local level and find it a more interesting event because it is not "all" about riding fast. I will never not go to an event because the club decided one format over the other and will support both formats and enduros.
The question I have is at the local level, has the restart format helped bring up attendance by taking out some of the time keeping requirements and computers?
I support AR and DB to run the restart format for the National series as I believe it is the fairest way of determining who is the fastest on single track trails using an enduro style stagger start and check points. I know enduros are not traditionally about being the fastest but also being smart. What AR and DB has been able to do last year was make the National events more consistent, event to event, in terms of taking out event mistakes and possible local favoritisme to local riders. The winner and champion of the National series is truly the most constant and the fastest rider on all types of single track as measured event to event as well as within an event over the year.
Having said the above, I really like the traditional format at the local level and find it a more interesting event because it is not "all" about riding fast. I will never not go to an event because the club decided one format over the other and will support both formats and enduros.
The question I have is at the local level, has the restart format helped bring up attendance by taking out some of the time keeping requirements and computers?
SpeedyManiac
Member
- Aug 8, 2000
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I've been thinking more and more about enduro format, and here's my revised thoughts.
Enduros are supposed to be a form of dirtbike racing, correct? In fact, enduros are supposed to place emphasis on the endurance side of racing. The 'traditional' (well, at least in the USA) enduro format isn't what I'd really call a race. The purpose of a race is to determine who is the fastest, not who can stay on a prescribed pace the best. I think ISDE/WEC style races do this. Yes, time keeping becomes easier, but the ISDE/WEC format still makes for a challenging race.
I also think the WEC produces some of the best all around racers in the world.
Enduros are supposed to be a form of dirtbike racing, correct? In fact, enduros are supposed to place emphasis on the endurance side of racing. The 'traditional' (well, at least in the USA) enduro format isn't what I'd really call a race. The purpose of a race is to determine who is the fastest, not who can stay on a prescribed pace the best. I think ISDE/WEC style races do this. Yes, time keeping becomes easier, but the ISDE/WEC format still makes for a challenging race.
I also think the WEC produces some of the best all around racers in the world.
enduro race or timed event?
hey just a qick 2 cents ...I believe and im sure smoeone will correct me if im wrong,
but AN Enduro was alwasy classified not as a Race but a timed Event where the objective wasn't to beat the other guy, but to maintain a predetermined speed average.
Beating the other guy was just a bonus :) , acually this was pointed on in events we put on on public land because you couldn't hold a competitive race in our state on pblic land per they're legal definition of land use.
maybe we shuold open a seperate thread on this.
hey just a qick 2 cents ...I believe and im sure smoeone will correct me if im wrong,
but AN Enduro was alwasy classified not as a Race but a timed Event where the objective wasn't to beat the other guy, but to maintain a predetermined speed average.
Beating the other guy was just a bonus :) , acually this was pointed on in events we put on on public land because you couldn't hold a competitive race in our state on pblic land per they're legal definition of land use.
maybe we shuold open a seperate thread on this.
SpeedyManiac said:
One can say the restart format is still a traditional timed event, just with some suttle changes to eliminate hot checks and posted average speed of test sections that are impossible to match guaranteeing all participants with be late at the check-out of a test section.
I believe the definition of a timed event is the equation of the sum of the differences between the actual time arrived and the predetermined time your scheduled to arrive over a number of check points along a route.
A race is the defined as a contest of speed and is determined by either measuring the time between the start and the finish of a predetermined distance where the shortest accumulated time is the winner or measuring the distance between the start and finish to race a predetermined time and the winner traversed the largest amount of a course.
In both the timed event and the race, the fastest rider wins. The traditional enduro just has some rules that can allow a smart slower rider beat a not so smart faster rider.
Using the above definitions, both enduro formats are timed events.
I believe the definition of a timed event is the equation of the sum of the differences between the actual time arrived and the predetermined time your scheduled to arrive over a number of check points along a route.
A race is the defined as a contest of speed and is determined by either measuring the time between the start and the finish of a predetermined distance where the shortest accumulated time is the winner or measuring the distance between the start and finish to race a predetermined time and the winner traversed the largest amount of a course.
In both the timed event and the race, the fastest rider wins. The traditional enduro just has some rules that can allow a smart slower rider beat a not so smart faster rider.
Using the above definitions, both enduro formats are timed events.
- Thread starter
- #18
Hopefully local promoters/clubs will continue to host some time keepers in their schedules. All other polls on this have similar results - more favor time keepers.
http://www.geocities.com/enduropoll/
http://www.woodsracer.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=8588
http://www.geocities.com/enduropoll/
http://www.woodsracer.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=8588
SpeedyManiac
Member
- Aug 8, 2000
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Just rode my first NEPG enduro - The Rock Pile in Montana. Thoughts? Restart format sucks compared to the WEC/ISDE format. At the ISDE it's a long, long day with pretty tight times. No messing around, just ride, eat, check the bike, pin it in the special tests, ride, etc.
If they'd put a tighter time in the transfers it would make the National Enduros a whole lot better. That, and the special tests should be a little shorter. 7-10 minutes tops at a time so it's a true speed test.
All that said, I still had fun and would definitely do another national enduro.
If they'd put a tighter time in the transfers it would make the National Enduros a whole lot better. That, and the special tests should be a little shorter. 7-10 minutes tops at a time so it's a true speed test.
All that said, I still had fun and would definitely do another national enduro.
- Oct 28, 2001
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How about the poll where riders vote with their wallet?EnduroRdr said:
Not to turn this into a whole debate on timekeeper vs. restart, but I wanted to provide the data that best shows the impact of the change from timekeeper to restart format events.
1) Shown below are stats from the National Enduro Series from 2002 -2009. The data source is the AMA and NEPG. To the best of my knowledge, in the years 2002 - 2006, all events were timekeeper format. There may have been an event or two in '06 where they tested out a 100% restart format event... I'll have to make some phone calls to clarify this.
2) In the 5 years preceding the changeover in format (2002-'06), the average entries per event was 238. Since the format change that started with the 2007 season, the average entries per event has been 345, an increase of 45%.
3) In looking at the crossover years of 2006 and 2007, the 2006 season had 11 events for a total rider count of 2,278. In 2007, with only 8 events, the rider count was 2,891, exceeding the previous year by 613 riders (up +27%), even though there were 3 less events on the schedule.
And in the first year of the restart format (2007), the series experienced a +75% increase in the average attendance at events. Since the changeover, there are nearly 1,000 more riders each year participating in the series compared to the 5 years leading up to the format change (a +44% increase).
4) The tremendous growth of the National Enduro Series since the changeover to restart format is even more impressive when you consider how much the economy has tanked since 2006, and how much more expensive gas was in 2007 and 2008 compared to 2006 and earlier.
Regardless of what you call it, the National Enduro Series is considerably more popular since implementing the new format. If not for the format change (along with all the other positive things the NEPG has brought to the series), national enduro events of the future may likely have been attended by 100 or so riders, with the majority of them in their 40's and 50's.
- Oct 28, 2001
- 4,704
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... And beware of simple polls like this.... The results are completely meaningless.
The pool of respondents is uncontrolled; Given 20 minutes, anyone could vote repeatedly to skew the results any way they wish. And of those responding, you have no idea as to if they've ever ridden an enduro, let alone tried both formats to make an informed opinion.
I will agree, however, with the purists out there regarding the use of the term "enduro". It is defined in the AMA rule book as "... A meet in which speed is not the determining factor and a time schedule must be maintained".
Regardless of what you call it, racing through the woods without covering the same trail over and over is a blast!
The pool of respondents is uncontrolled; Given 20 minutes, anyone could vote repeatedly to skew the results any way they wish. And of those responding, you have no idea as to if they've ever ridden an enduro, let alone tried both formats to make an informed opinion.
I will agree, however, with the purists out there regarding the use of the term "enduro". It is defined in the AMA rule book as "... A meet in which speed is not the determining factor and a time schedule must be maintained".
Regardless of what you call it, racing through the woods without covering the same trail over and over is a blast!
- Oct 13, 1999
- 2,807
- 0
I prefer good old-fashioned time keeping enduros over the start control events.
freewoco said:
You obviously are speaking of events that I had nothing to do with. :)
We have put on both formats, and I have burnt the fastest and slowest of riders, however I have never rewarded anyone for going into a section early.
I have been to events, where taking the chance paid off. I fell victim to loosing lots of overall points one day at one of these events. It was frustrating to have run 3+ miles into a 24 mph tight section to find half of the participants hiding behind a hill with thier helmets off. They all got rewarded for taking the chance.
I have since used the "Vote with your wallet" method for that particular event.
craig_enid
Member
- Mar 23, 2000
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Timekeeper.
Riding on a row with friends together is where I experience the thrill of the event. We are competing together against the course, not against each other.
That is the unique aspect of timekeepers that I seek, not the 'me against you and every other SOB out here' that is cross-country/hare scrambles/known control restart format.
I don't see why there isn't the push to change the cross-country/scramble circuits to the known control format, instead of timekeepers to KCR. Much less change in how the event is run and scored if those formats are changed. Locally, I'd like to see an OCCRA race billed as a Known Control Restart. THAT'S what makes sense to me! :nod:
Riding on a row with friends together is where I experience the thrill of the event. We are competing together against the course, not against each other.
That is the unique aspect of timekeepers that I seek, not the 'me against you and every other SOB out here' that is cross-country/hare scrambles/known control restart format.
I don't see why there isn't the push to change the cross-country/scramble circuits to the known control format, instead of timekeepers to KCR. Much less change in how the event is run and scored if those formats are changed. Locally, I'd like to see an OCCRA race billed as a Known Control Restart. THAT'S what makes sense to me! :nod:
