1998RM250

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Nov 5, 2008
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Read this and figured I'd post it in the two stroke section seeing ethanol has the worst effects on our motors...

Ethanol is supposed to be a clean bio-fuel that helps reduce our dependence on foreign oil. It's primarily produced from domestically grown corn. So why is it so controversial?
When the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency announced earlier this month that refiners could begin to sell gasoline with a 15-percent ethanol content, so called "E15," it raised outcry from a whole host of special-interest groups. Environmentalists objected. Oil companies complained. Gas station owners howled. Classic car owners moaned. Motorist groups whined. Even boat owners grumbled.

Just about the only people who like the new rule are corn farmers and Midwest Democrats running for Congress. More on that later...

Five Percent More

First, let's figure out what this fuel additive means for motorists. Currently, cars are designed to use gasoline with an ethanol content of 10 percent. After testing gasoline with a 15-percent ethanol blend, the EPA has concluded that it won't hurt vehicles built in 2007 or later. The agency took this action because Congress wants to expand the nation's use of ethanol and other bio-fuels.

Later this year, the EPA will decide whether E15 is safe for vehicles built from 2001 through 2006. But the agency's two-step approval process is causing lots of heartburn. The EPA will require gas stations to slap labels on gas pumps that dispense E15 fuel. But retailers and environmentalists fear motorists might get confused if they have a choice of two different ethanol blends.

If the owner of an older car uses the wrong fuel, the vehicle's catalytic converter might be damaged. That's because ethanol blends burn hotter than pure gasoline. Vehicles built in 2007 or later have an oxygen sensor that adjusts the combustion and protects the catalyst. Not so with older cars. A car with a damaged catalytic converter can be a serious polluter, says Sasha Lyutse, a New York-based policy analyst for the Natural Resources Defense Council.

"People are worried that you could have serious problems," she says. "I am quite skeptical of the EPA's ability to implement this system at the pump."

Gas station owners aren't happy either. The angry owner of a damaged car might well sue the retailer, warns Jeff Lenard, spokesman for the National Association of Convenience Stores, whose members sell 80 percent of the nation's gasoline.

"Do retailers have the stomach for the potential risk?" Lenard asks. "A lot of questions have to be answered before a retailer is going to sell E15. Nothing is going to happen overnight."

A Different Sort Of Green

There are other problems. Vehicles built in 2007 or later account for just 18 percent of the nation's total vehicle population. If a gas station wants to serve everybody – not just owners of new cars – it would have to install new pumps and new underground fuel tanks, Lenard says. Pumps cost about $18,000 to $20,000 apiece, while underground storage tanks can cost anywhere from $20,000 in a rural area to a whopping $250,000 in cities like San Francisco.

Then there's the tricky issue of fuel economy. Because ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline, pure gasoline delivers about 3 percent better fuel economy than an E15 blend, Lenard says.

Since the EPA isn't requiring retailers to use the new blend, one might expect gas stations to take a pass on E15. But ethanol is a bit cheaper than pure gasoline, so retailers can cut the price of a gallon of fuel by a few pennies. If a competitor down the road uses E15 to cut prices, that would be a powerful incentive for retailers to stock it, says Lenard.

"People might step over a penny on the pavement on the way to the pump, but they'll drive miles out of their way to save a few cents per gallon," he notes.

Other organizations have commented on the issue. The American Automobile Association, the nation's largest motorist organization, issued a statement warning against possible damage to older cars. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents automakers, did so too. In its statement, the alliance noted that automakers must "harden" the fuel systems of vehicles to run on fuel blends with a high ethanol content. But ethanol can corrode the engine seals and fuel lines of vehicles that haven't been upgraded. And it's not just older cars that are affected.

The EPA warns against the use of E15 fuel in motorcycles, school buses, delivery trucks, snowmobiles, lawn mowers, chain saws and boats. Which is why the National Marine Manufacturers Association was feeling cranky enough to complain about possible damage to boat engines.

Politics Over The Environment?

If environmentalists, automakers, oil companies and gas station owners all are worried about E15 fuel, why is the EPA moving ahead? In 2007, Congress passed the Energy Independence and Security Act, which mandates the nationwide consumption of 36 billion gallons of renewable fuel by 2022. Since the nation's motorists used only nine billion gallons in 2008, we've got a long way to go.

But why was the agency in such a rush to okay E15's use in new vehicles before tests on older vehicles are complete? The New York Times hinted at the answer Thursday when it noted that nine Democratic congressmen in ethanol-producing states face tough re-election bids in November. This is a make-or-break issue for voters in corn states like Iowa, whose livelihoods are tied to the industry.

Environmentalists favor the production of ethanol from substances like switch grass, which causes less environmental damage than corn. But don't hold your breath, said the NRDC's Lyutse.

"Corn ethanol has been getting [government] subsidies for more than 30 years," she said. "This is one more decision that supports corn ethanol at the expense of cleaner biofuels."
 

mideastrider

~SPONSOR~
Jul 8, 2006
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Using a food source is not a good idea to fuel the nations cars. IMO. When the big oil companies begin bidding against Kellogs and General Mills and every other product that uses corn (its alot) what do you think that will do to the prices at the grocery store? hmm
 

Rich Rohrich

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While I'll be the first to say ethanol in our fuel rather than MTBE or TAME is a bad idea in general, and just generally lousy science overall the "facts" in that article are anything but. Ethanol supporters and detractors seem to have one thing in common, they are both short on verifiable science and long on BS.
 

_JOE_

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May 10, 2007
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Vehicles built in 2007 or later have an oxygen sensor that adjusts the combustion and protects the catalyst. Not so with older cars.

You mean like this? :whoa:
 

1998RM250

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Nov 5, 2008
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Yeah the oxygen sensor stuff is definately not right. I just saw it on
aol news when I went online and figured I'd post it on here.
 

Rich Rohrich

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1998RM250 said:
Yeah the oxygen sensor stuff is definately not right. I just saw it on
aol news when I went online and figured I'd post it on here.

That's just one of the flaws in article. The problem with posting something full of technical errors is you give credence to the misinformation. After a while enough people will read it and consider it something believable or trustworthy.

Thirty five years ago Gordon Jennings said it best in an article titled "Motorcycle Mythology". His words ring just as true today.

Motorcyclists share with humanity at large a tendency to know a lot of things that aren't so. This certainly is true of matters involving technology, and not entirely because H. L. Mencken was right when he accused Americans of having an "appetite for bogus revelation". Mostly it simply is that people find it easier to embrace myth's pliant generalities than to grapple with the chill, complex certitudes of physical law.

Motorcycle Myths - Gordon Jennings - Cycle Magazine March 1975


In other words, if you are posting something (whether it's your thoughts or a repost) it's worth taking the time to make sure it isn't nonsense before you hit the Submit button.
 

Rich Rohrich

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1998RM250 said:
What else is false info, just wondering?

That's your homework assignment. Figure it out. ;)
 

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer
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Now all we need is the guy needing fuel to smell like grapes. Thanks Rich, no threads like the old threads! Do you ever wonder if one of these guys ever went to work for a novelty race gas company? Yes I got side tracked with the make your own race gas thread. Vintage Bob
 

RM_guy

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Rich Rohrich said:
...Motorcyclists share with humanity at large a tendency to know a lot of things that aren't so. This certainly is true of matters involving technology, and not entirely because H. L. Mencken was right when he accused Americans of having an "appetite for bogus revelation". Mostly it simply is that people find it easier to embrace myth's pliant generalities than to grapple with the chill, complex certitudes of physical law.

Motorcycle Myths - Gordon Jennings - Cycle Magazine March 1975
...
Damn if that isn't true everywhere. I deal with it everyday at work, especially with upper management and it gets tiring after a while.

...and this is good advice worth repeating:
In other words, if you are posting something (whether it's your thoughts or a repost) it's worth taking the time to make sure it isn't nonsense before you hit the Submit button.
 

MikeT

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Here is a question. Other than buying race gas, is there any place (gas station) that I can buy straight gas without ethanol in it??

I am not sure if there is some sort of federal mandate that requires ethanol in all fuels now which would mean that all pump gas has it in it. Does anyone know???
 

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer
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The boat marina does carry regular leaded fuel, they will not be back until April, wimps. In my state, they seemingly will not allow ether as an oxygenate, it does NOT drive up groceries, but leeching into the aqua filter is bad, politics? So, thats where we are at. Vintage Bob
 

dirt bike dave

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MikeT said:
Here is a question. Other than buying race gas, is there any place (gas station) that I can buy straight gas without ethanol in it??

I am not sure if there is some sort of federal mandate that requires ethanol in all fuels now which would mean that all pump gas has it in it. Does anyone know???

Where do you live? The feds will regulate fuel depending on air quality in your area.

In my area with bad air quality, we now get 10%+- of ethanol year round at every gas station I've seen. My trail bike does not seem to mind.

Before the ethanol blend cam along, we had MTBE and before that, straight 'good' gas. Honestly, I've never noticed a difference in how my bikes run. But I'm not jetted to the razor's edge as I need a safety factor built in when elevations and weather change so much during a long ride.

FWIW, on my truck, I do notice worse mileage with ethanol and other low energy content fuels when compared to higher energy content fuel I get if I travel out of the area.
 

XRpredator

AssClown SuperPowers
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MikeT said:
Here is a question. Other than buying race gas, is there any place (gas station) that I can buy straight gas without ethanol in it??

I am not sure if there is some sort of federal mandate that requires ethanol in all fuels now which would mean that all pump gas has it in it. Does anyone know???
we get it from the guy at the airport. You pay a premium for it, of course, even when it's not premium . . .
 

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer
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And what all extra does av fuel have in it? There is a reason it is blended to go to 40.000 feet of altitude. Regular leaded fuel, or regular unleaded fuel with mtbe, I will take the ether! The whiners In Cali ruined oxygenated fuel, imo.
 

oldguy

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Around us the premium grade at most stations is ethanol free. Some stations in the federal ethanol mandate area label the premium pumps for offroad and recreational vehicles to get past the restriction. All the regular and mid grade gasoline is 10% ethanol
 

XRpredator

AssClown SuperPowers
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Aug 2, 2000
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This isn't av-gas, foxforks. The guy runs a Budget rent-a-car outfit and gets the non-ethanol gas for his rental fleet.
 

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer
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Thanks Pred! His cars run more efficient and less wear on the fuel related parts, smart! We do not matter though. But, I have noticed that some premium pumps do not have the stickers on them like Dave mentioned. I would have sworn that I checked for any other tags? The only thing that smells worse than ethanol is varnish. Buy bulk fuel and order the blend you want, that sounds REALLY expensive to start up, and a lot of red tape? Minimum orders?
 

motometal

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the amount of propaganda surrounding the ethanol industry is mind boggling. Most of the "anti" articles I've read are still talking about how it takes more energy to make a gallon, than what is in it. This hasn't been true for years, at least in modern plants. Take a look at the wind energy business. You have to start somewhere, and develop the technology from there.
 

cujet

Member
Aug 13, 2000
826
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Certainly, the turbo guys love E85. It's high octane works well in turbocharged, high boost engines.
 

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer
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Oct 19, 2006
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So its the candy car people whining the loudest, that gasahol is bad? They do have all the money, akin to quad guys. Cresting over 3 dollars a gallon again makes me ill.
 
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