Everything about the 2000 KTM 250 e/xc!!!

WVWWVWVWWVW

Member
May 1, 2003
5
0
As the discription reads, I just bought a new 250 e/xc (2000) model. A scuffed piston later and here's the details:

Bike arived with so much compression i could put all of my 170lbs on the kickstarter and literally not budge the thing. Every second or third blast it would kick through the stroke but with great energy required. Once the bike started everything seemed find and the initial ride proved the thing was a rocket as I had expected. The compression felt on the kickstarter lessened progressively during the 45 minutes the bike ran.

As I started the bike the next day I noticed it starting to smoke heavily even with the carb off. My father said he could here a slight roughness in the bottom end of the rpm curve but i noticed nothing. When I came to a stop at the end of the ride the bike started surging whenever I hit the kill switch. It would almost die out and then rev back up for a second or two (Roughly 2-3 grand). Had to kick the bike into gear and drop it just to get the thing to shut off.

On the third morning the bike would not start at all. Turns out the thing for some reason ruined the stock ngk plug so I replaced it with the champion fine wireplug listed as standard for the 250.I took it out and within 3 minutes the power went flat as soon as i hit third gear and 20 seconds later the thing stops. The shop said it was detonation from bad fuel but many things concern me with their claims...

There is no reason for that much compression initially and that much decrease over that short of time (Shop assured me it was correct when I left with the piece of junk).

The roughness in the bottom end wasn't that apparent and detonation should be fairly easy to hear I'd think.

Smoking too much would mean a rich condition which wouldn't lead to piston damage.

Surging worries me about possible crankcase leaks but I think everything is going to come back to jetting with this thing...

Please give me all the advice you can on this problem. I'm sure you guys could see the problem immediately if you had been around. Please give me jetting tips... and if I have to remove the stock exhaust pipe and carburetor and replace them with a FMF Gnarly and newer version carb then just break the news to my bank acount right now before I roll the bike off a very big cliff.

If there are any other problems or suggested hop-ups for reliability with the 2000 250 e/xc please drop me a line i.e. - give me all the advice you have.

Thanks
 
B

biglou

There's no way that thing should have been that hard to kick over in the first place. I know hindsight is 20/20, but I would have stopped right there. When I got my 01 MXC, my dealer walked me through a quick start cycle to make sure I understood everything. A reputable dealer should already have started your bike after putting it together and filling the fluids to make sure all was well. Either they just didn't do it, or they had someone with very little experience doing it. Sounds pretty fishy to me...
 

KenR

Member
Feb 20, 2002
193
0
My guess is that there's something wrong with the internals of that engine and it isn't just a jetting issue. As BigLou said, it shouldn't have been that hard to kick the first time.

I doubt that swapping exhaust components, carbs, etc. at this point will solve the root problem. A lot of these bikes were sold and ran just fine right out of the crate - performance enhancements won't help basic mechanical problems.

I'd pull the jets out and make sure there wasn't anything plugging up the works. You said it had a scuffed piston - did you pull the top end apart after it started acting up and discover this? If not, I may be inclined to have a look.

How was the spark plug ruined? Was it oil fouled or burned?

Did you warm it up completely before any high rpm blasts? How was the compression after it finally quit for good? Is the shop working with you on it? They should be if it was a new bike.

Let us know what you find...this is interesting.
 

scottyr

Member
Mar 12, 2000
272
0
I think I know what you mean about tough to kick. My 01 250EXC was a real bear to kick over the first time when the motor was dead cold. Once I gave it a couple of boots it kicked over real easy.

Did they bike come with gas in it? If the gas had been in the bike for 3 yrs, you need to pull the carb off and thoroughly clean it. I would replace all the jets instead of cleaning them. Does the float bowl have green crap in it? Are you sure that you scuffed a piston? If you did, I bet it was from that green crap from the bowl plugging up the main jet in the carb.

I dont think you have any major problems, other than the piston, if it really did stick on you. Pull the carb off and have the dealer clean it up. If they need to replace the piston, have them take a peak at the lower end bearings as well. I am in the snowmobile business and the worst thing for a 2 stroke engine is to sit and not being used. I wouldnt be surprised if the bearings had some rust on them.

Good Luck and keep us posted.
 

MikeS

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 12, 2000
716
1
The rust or corrosion is very possible. If the bike was fired up at the factory or after importing then the thing gets misplaced and lies around, the combuston process produces acids that can corrode things up. This is a possiblity

DO NOT start changing pipes and carbs....

KenR has some good questions.

I have an issue with just taking a bike home and firing it up and blasting down the road, trail, field etc. 90% of the riders do that and we hear from a small percentage reporting this bike stinks or it blew up or this fell off etc.

Personally I check everything before we do anything with the bike. Junior just got a new TM 125E on tuesday. We worked on it every night this week before I even put an ounce of gas in it. It killed junior to wait until last night (friday) just to fire it up and let it hi idle for 2 minutes. We did a few hot, cool down fast idle cycles then a putt around the yard. today we will double check everything and do jetting . Then let him tear it up later in the afternoon.
Seems like alot of trouble but issues can be avoided.

I have had 3 factory or dealer oversites sting me in the last 4 years ranging from missing powervalve linkage, loose carb/cable connections, crimped cables that stuck throttle etc...

Goodluck and let us know what happened.
 

WVWWVWVWWVW

Member
May 1, 2003
5
0
Thanks for all of your suggestions guys.

Big Lou - I did see them working on preping the bike for about 8 minutes and then got pulled in to do the paper work so I wasn't there when they started it. Everything sounded fine since i was there when it was going. And as far as the person doing the run-through and so on, I don't think anyone who did anything to the bike has enough experience to be working on the thing (including myself I'd say). Sweet m/xc too!

KenR - More and more it is sounding like a bearing/carb problem combined. I can't see something internal making it surge like that. The shop has the bike now and it is a 2.5 hour drive. They are the ones who took apart the top end. They also said they had cleaned the carb but I wonder... The plug was oil fouled and the only reason I suggested changing the exhaust was because I have heard the stock ones are rather hard to jet. I did warm the bike up but looking back maybe not enough. I ran it at 1/8 throttle i'd say, just above idle then after 2 minutes started blipping it to clean it out. Then I rode around at or less than 1/2 throttle for about 10-15 minutes. This is the average procedure for all my short rides. I only really rolled it on hard 3 or 4 times and didn't really punch it even. You asked about the compression but I can't give you numbers. To give you an idea it went from unmovable at first, to not having enough pressure to stop a 12 year old from effortlessly rolling it through by hand. I wish I had the bike here so I could just check everything you guys say myself, but it's at the shop (which concerns me a lot).

ScottyR - The compression stayed like that for quite a while. I'd say 60+ kicks and it was still higher than a normal 250's compression. I wonder if it was that hard to kick over at the shop or if something happened to it on the truck. The shop said the gas was fresh but old gas could have set in it for 2 years or more. I am interested to see why you suggest replacing the jets even if they are cleaned. The carb didn't appear to have any green gunk in it. There wasn't any sort of residue or whatever in it. I'll be sure to check all the carb settings including float level when I get the bike back.

MikeS - I am wishing now that I had ripped the bike apart by myself at first. I wasn't confident tearing into a new motorcycle though. I have learned a lot here though in the past week and have EG's book to help me. I did a lot of the servicing to my old CR125 but that was just a piece of junk not worth sending to the shop and want the best service possible for my bike. I can see that I'll just end up doing it for myself in the end (hopefully). Does anyone have a reason as to why there are so many terrible dealers out there. We don't have hardly any enduro bikes around here (or any bikes for that matter), so you guys talking about TM125E's and tricked out desert bikes is super cool. I'll probably never get to see a TM, VOR, Gas Gas, Husky, or Husaberg in these parts.

I hope this helps you guys reading. I worked off of sheet of looseleaf I carried around with me so it might be a bit choppy at times. Once again thanks for all the help and god willing I will ride every model of dirt bike on the earth...
 

scottyr

Member
Mar 12, 2000
272
0
The reason I suggested replacing the jets is that they are cheap ($3 max) to replace and because brass is so soft, the size of the jets can be altered by sticking something up it trying to clean it.

Did the bike start fine at the dealership and then become hard to kick over after it sat in the back of your truck for the 2.5 hour drive? Did you shut your gas tap off? If you didnt, I bet you that the float level is way off and the fuel dumped into the bottom end of the motor filling the cases with gas. Because gas cant be compressed, you could have hydro-locked the engine causing so more damage. (ie. bent rod or crank) That also will explain the soaking wet plug as the fuel that was in the bottom end finally worked its way to the plug.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 

old#48

Member
Jun 17, 2002
98
0
No reason to change the pipe, the KTM pipes of the 250 and 300's are very good. Most people change the silencer/SA for a FMF Turbine Core II silencer/SA, this will add throttle response, start to help with just-off-idle richness, sound/look better, and is lighter.

No reason to change the carb, the main difference between the '01, '02 and '03 250/300exc carb's is that they have a 6.5 slide, while the '00 is a 6.0. Most people change to the 6.5 or a 7.0 to help with the low speed richness problem, but you don't HAVE to do this right away, you should be able to jet it to run real well with the stock 6.0 slide - I did on my '00 250 exc, although I am going to get the 6.5. The 6.5 or 7.0 slide has a bigger cut out and therefore lets more air through, but you have to re-jet when you change slides.

The only other difference in the carbs is that in either '02 or '03, they used a lower needle jet screen/shield that leans jetting at idle and slightly above, but you will be able to jet to compensate for this improvement, so again, no need to change the carb.

Have you had the carb apart to clean any old grunge out of it, especially in the float needle and seat ? You may also want to clean the tank and the fuel petock screen, just to be sure any crap is out of it. As has probably already been mentioned, the seizure problem may be due to rust in the cylinder.

For oil make sure you are using 100% sythetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil, something like Mobil1 MX2T, BelRay H1R, Amsoil2000, or Motul 600 or 8002T and mix it around 40:1. For gas, it will most likely run better (especially if jetted rich) if you use 1/3 to 1/2 of 100 to 110 octane race gas mixed with pump premium. I use 1 oz per gal Maxima octane booster in pump premium, but I think the mix method will do you better.

Just my 25 cents worth of opinions on all this.
 

MikeS

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 12, 2000
716
1
Not to bash any dealers but some stink. Some guys really check the bike some do not. There is a checklist usually the dealer has that gets returned to the factory.

I hope you make out ok as you seem to be in a sore spot... Hopefully the dealer will figure it out and take care of any issues.

As to the cause at this point...who knows. The bike is new and it should fire up with little issue. If the plug got wet and carboned up that would be typical of a KTM of that year upon initial startup. They need good fuel and oil then jetting. For it loose compression/surge whatever .... you have other issues. I have seen one 01 250 SX that was ridden at the shop then raced on Sunday loose a piece of piston..why??? KTM took care of almost the whole thing so keep your fingers crossed.

Goodluck...
 

WVWWVWVWWVW

Member
May 1, 2003
5
0
Thaks for the info guys. I've learned a ton since I last saw the bike. Its nice to know I don't have to start changing things if I ever get it back. The carb was fully cleaned at the shop supposedly but I'll check it all over myself. You mentioned about runnning race fuel mixed 1/3 to 1/2 but I don't know of anywhere I could get some. I had planned on running amsoil (synth) with premium gas (@40:1). What do you guys suggest for the best mix?

I just heard back form the dealer today and they said that they had the bike going and it worked fine but with the massive compression problem still. Apparently this thing did a lot of damage in a short period of time. I hope the dealer comes through on this one for me... and I don't plan to give them a cent. The bike has a major flaw that was there right from the shop and they know it... it was a chaf deal anyway which has me wondering... I don't think it is a KTM problem but a dirt bike problem. This BS seems to happen to a lot of people. Do you guys know of any reason a stock bike put together properly would run such a high compression? I was also wondering what kind of riding to service ratio you guys get with your bikes. I spend about an hour of riding for every 10 servicing and repairing it seems.

thanks again
 

MikeS

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 12, 2000
716
1
IMHO

Amsoil 2000 at 40:1 is fine they recommend 50:1. Premium fuel should work if that is all you can get. Pick one station and one oil and stick with it.

I spend alot wrenching...checking. The bike should require little maintaince other than trans oil and ususal stuff. Grease swingarm once a year or so and check rear wheel bearing as the seals groove the spacers letting in water. Other than that go hammer it. Top ends should last 1-2years with maybe a ring change for most guys.

Hope you get it back soon
 

JTT

~SPONSOR~
Aug 25, 2000
1,407
0
WVW, Scottyr may be onto something with the hydraulically locked deal...that would explain alot. Where are you located in NB? I'm in Halifax. Contact me by e-mail if you wish, I can help you with finding fuel in your area. I assume you bought the bike in Moncton? If so, don't get too down, as they are actually pretty good guys (mostly) and should get you fixed up.
 

old#48

Member
Jun 17, 2002
98
0
WV, what did they actually do to the bike to get it going? Did they have the top end off to check it? If not, if it has seized once already, I think you may be headed for more problems down the road. I think they are obligated to check that motor over and make it 100% right for you, at least the top end, if not the top and bottom. Hey, for a guy that does it all the time, it isnt gonna take em huge time to take the motor down and make it right. I know you have to be reasonable and stay calm with the dealer, but you can't let them push you around either.....if the dealer won't take care of you then find out who your regional KTM rep is and call him. You can probably find out who that is by asking on KTMtalk.
 

old#48

Member
Jun 17, 2002
98
0
Something else, if you read and study this Jetting Article by Canadian Dave about 4 times, you will probably know more than most on this subject.

http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/carbtuning.html
 

trailblaze

Member
Sep 17, 2002
25
0
you said that it was hard to kick over. Was your crank filled with fuel. I have seen this problem caused be the needle and seat sticking in carb. This would cause your crank to fill with fuel and then be almost impossible to start until you can get the gas pumped out. Just a thought.
 

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