Family Enduro Series - 2007
- Thread starter fatherandson
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- Oct 28, 2001
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For many of the same reasons Magoo stated, PLEASE keep all FES events timekeepers. Using the restart in a FES event would be quite a bit different than incorporating restart in a regular enduro event. It would change the spirit and intent of the FES.fatherandson said:
- Feb 3, 2001
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- #28
I will pass along your comments to the Harrison club. We may need to make an adjustment to FES schedule.
I agree with Magoo and the rest of the gang. I'm hoping to take my son to the family enduros this year and have fun riding with him. If they were restarts I would have to think twice about letting him ride them due to the speed factor and the possibilty of someone be overly agressive trying to pass Alex to "beat the clock". I know I'll be with him on the trail but I also know how stupid riders can be when they think they are racing, not keeping time.
Wolverine423
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- Oct 2, 2005
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I'm not an advocate of using restart format for FES either{Thats for the big show on Sundays}. I absolutely feel that it would take the fun out of the series and rider numbers will drop. As stated above we need to keep in mind the customers were trying to reach out to.
Ps. Well said Magoo!
DW
Ps. Well said Magoo!
DW
- Feb 3, 2001
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The original discussion with the club was that they may need to use the restart format due to lack of land issues. However, I was at Lansing Cycle this afternoon and ran into one of the club members. He said that they may have a different start location for the Saturday event which would allow more private land opportunities. I mentioned to him the overwhelming opinions to have the events be timekeeping events and I offerred to provide a check crew or two. He felt that with more land that a timekeeping event would be possible.
- Feb 3, 2001
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Tom had the wrong dates...we will ride on Saturday (4/28) and work on Sunday (4/29).
Thomas is wrong often just ask his wife! :ohmy:fatherandson said:
The correct date is april 29,2007 9:00am at leetsville staging area 2 miles east of Kalkaska on county rd 612 (same as last 2 years)
Watch for your D-14 paper for ad,coming to you in the March and April additions.
Hope I didn't get that wrong!?
Magoo and Tdunn you gentlemen have made some very imporntant points, and they certainly have a lot of support.
I've been riding the FES events for three years with my oldest son. Before that I had never ridden an enduro.
With ages from 4 to 16 and beyond you will definetly have a very wide range of talent and capability. Perhaps row selection or alternate courses could help (age old problem; :bang: how do you challenge the AA riders without killing the C riders).
As an enduro newbie I would find these events a bit more inviting if I didn't have to deal with timekeeping. I do realize that timekeeping is part of the enduro heritage and part of the FES mission is to get people acquainted with timekeeping.
Restart format or not I think these are still technically timed events, you should bring a watch along and try to stay on time, 12mph or 18mph.
I have never ridden an event using the restart format. Are they truly much faster and more difficult?
I would like to hear from some non enduro riders. Perhaps a poll: Would you be more likley to try a FES event if timekeeping were not required? Just come out and ride with your kid at 12 or 18mph (can't do that in a Hare Scramble or a CCC trail ride).
I may be alone in this perspective(certainly wouldn't be the first time).
Thanks Much RUSS
You may now flame away!!
I've been riding the FES events for three years with my oldest son. Before that I had never ridden an enduro.
With ages from 4 to 16 and beyond you will definetly have a very wide range of talent and capability. Perhaps row selection or alternate courses could help (age old problem; :bang: how do you challenge the AA riders without killing the C riders).
As an enduro newbie I would find these events a bit more inviting if I didn't have to deal with timekeeping. I do realize that timekeeping is part of the enduro heritage and part of the FES mission is to get people acquainted with timekeeping.
Restart format or not I think these are still technically timed events, you should bring a watch along and try to stay on time, 12mph or 18mph.
I have never ridden an event using the restart format. Are they truly much faster and more difficult?
I would like to hear from some non enduro riders. Perhaps a poll: Would you be more likley to try a FES event if timekeeping were not required? Just come out and ride with your kid at 12 or 18mph (can't do that in a Hare Scramble or a CCC trail ride).
I may be alone in this perspective(certainly wouldn't be the first time).
Thanks Much RUSS
You may now flame away!!
- Oct 28, 2001
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Hey Russ....
What you're suggesting is kind of a contradiction..... No timekeeping, but ride at a set speed average? Timekeeping is what you use to maintain a targeted speed average, and the checks are used to measure how accurate you are in maintaining that speed average.
Maintaining the low speed average is what helps us ride with our kids at a steady pace. With a restart, it becomes a game of how fast can you get through the woods, and with the wide variation in age/skill/speed with the kids out there, there'd be a lot of attempted passing, and I think we'd find that we weren't riding with our kids like we do in the current FES format. Now there might be ways to create a restart type "youth" enduro series, but it would not be in the spirit and intent of the FES as we know it today.
.... And the beauty of FES and timekeeping enduros in general is you don't have to sweat the timekeeping aspect at all... just treat it like a ride in the woods with your kids and friends. :cool:
What you're suggesting is kind of a contradiction..... No timekeeping, but ride at a set speed average? Timekeeping is what you use to maintain a targeted speed average, and the checks are used to measure how accurate you are in maintaining that speed average.
Maintaining the low speed average is what helps us ride with our kids at a steady pace. With a restart, it becomes a game of how fast can you get through the woods, and with the wide variation in age/skill/speed with the kids out there, there'd be a lot of attempted passing, and I think we'd find that we weren't riding with our kids like we do in the current FES format. Now there might be ways to create a restart type "youth" enduro series, but it would not be in the spirit and intent of the FES as we know it today.
.... And the beauty of FES and timekeeping enduros in general is you don't have to sweat the timekeeping aspect at all... just treat it like a ride in the woods with your kids and friends. :cool:
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- Feb 3, 2001
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- #39
I think Russ makes some good points on timekeeping and row selection. At this time our attendance is not an issue and I am not aware that the timekeeping aspect is keeping people from joining us. We are advertising more this year and I hope the attendance at each event increases. I get A LOT of questions at these events about timekeeping...maybe I need to do a better job at the riders meetings of providing some timekeeping training.
Row selection....I know we had some issues at Kalkaska with traffic jams in the woods on the newer trail - usually caused by the younger riders going slower and the other riders not comfortable making a pass. In April we may have the younger riders (4-8 year olds)on the later minutes this year (rows 30-40) to avoid some these situations. This group is only riding the 12 mph loop anyways.
LMC had two meetings with the DNR on Friday and they went very well. We are planning our events for 2007 and many of our requests were approved. If the snow melts in March, we should have access to many of the trails we used at the June Family Enduro last year (same staging area for the April event this year - NOT Leetsville on Saturday).
I will give the May Tree Planting post a bump with an update from the Friday meetings.
Row selection....I know we had some issues at Kalkaska with traffic jams in the woods on the newer trail - usually caused by the younger riders going slower and the other riders not comfortable making a pass. In April we may have the younger riders (4-8 year olds)on the later minutes this year (rows 30-40) to avoid some these situations. This group is only riding the 12 mph loop anyways.
LMC had two meetings with the DNR on Friday and they went very well. We are planning our events for 2007 and many of our requests were approved. If the snow melts in March, we should have access to many of the trails we used at the June Family Enduro last year (same staging area for the April event this year - NOT Leetsville on Saturday).
I will give the May Tree Planting post a bump with an update from the Friday meetings.
Thanks Smit-Dog... I think you explained it well.
Russ, I don't think anyone will flame you for raising the questions you have -- they are legitimate thoughts.
The only comment I have is regarding the difference between "restart" and "timekeeping" events.
I think a restart event is a little different than you think. True, they have a set speed average for each section, the kicker is that it is meaningless since the section and speed average is designed so that NO ONE will be able to acheive it. The idea is to see who can get thru the section the fastest (ie. drop the least points). The sections are speed events -- IMO, if your child is prepared for and wishes to compete this way, then they should be doing harescrambles. Or even the "grownups" enduro events.
In a timekeeping format (traditional enduro), part of the "game" can be to catch riders arriving early to a check. Timekeeping then becomes an important part of competing in the event, not a pain (paraphrasing your words, sorry). I certainly hope that timekeepers don't go away -- I can't tell you how many great conversations I've enjoyed about timekeeping events. The really fun ones have had checks that have burned riders, and some have had really creative check placement. The buzz in the pits after these events is amazing! You never get that at a restart event.
Although DB is promoting the new format, he's been quoted several times that he "wasn't always the fastest rider, just the smartest."
(warning: general statement, my opinion only)
I think timekeepers are favored by average riders (B and C riders like me), since they can give you an opportunity to be competitive with a faster guy (who might make a mistake). Restart events might be favored by the fast guys, since they want to know who's fastest.
In any case, hope to see you at the FES and other enduro events this year!
Russ, I don't think anyone will flame you for raising the questions you have -- they are legitimate thoughts.
The only comment I have is regarding the difference between "restart" and "timekeeping" events.
I think a restart event is a little different than you think. True, they have a set speed average for each section, the kicker is that it is meaningless since the section and speed average is designed so that NO ONE will be able to acheive it. The idea is to see who can get thru the section the fastest (ie. drop the least points). The sections are speed events -- IMO, if your child is prepared for and wishes to compete this way, then they should be doing harescrambles. Or even the "grownups" enduro events.
In a timekeeping format (traditional enduro), part of the "game" can be to catch riders arriving early to a check. Timekeeping then becomes an important part of competing in the event, not a pain (paraphrasing your words, sorry). I certainly hope that timekeepers don't go away -- I can't tell you how many great conversations I've enjoyed about timekeeping events. The really fun ones have had checks that have burned riders, and some have had really creative check placement. The buzz in the pits after these events is amazing! You never get that at a restart event.
Although DB is promoting the new format, he's been quoted several times that he "wasn't always the fastest rider, just the smartest."
(warning: general statement, my opinion only)
I think timekeepers are favored by average riders (B and C riders like me), since they can give you an opportunity to be competitive with a faster guy (who might make a mistake). Restart events might be favored by the fast guys, since they want to know who's fastest.
In any case, hope to see you at the FES and other enduro events this year!
- Feb 3, 2001
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- #41
Magoo - that is a very good point. The closed course format of the new National Enduros will allow a 14-15 year old who has outgrown the FES to test their skills on Sunday. It will be interesting to see how many FES graduates we see in Harrison this year.UP Magoo said:
- Feb 3, 2001
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- #42
CCC members....check out page 10 of the March issue of the Trailrider magazine.
I hope to see more of you at a Family Enduro in 2007. Bring the entire family!!!
I hope to see more of you at a Family Enduro in 2007. Bring the entire family!!!
- Feb 3, 2001
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- #44
The 15 year old could ride both days at Harrison - if he/she wanted to and the parents signed the waiver.
Thanks for the insight on the restart format guys. It sounds like they are a bit different than I had invisioned.
The Friday before the Mini Moose is the last day of school here. I'm thinkin it's going to be a short night after driving up Fri evening. I might have to stay and ride on Sun. It's going to be an "easy", right?
I believe the Pine Cone is scheduled for the same weekend as the CCC Kids Trail Tour (we obviously need more weekends!).
The Friday before the Mini Moose is the last day of school here. I'm thinkin it's going to be a short night after driving up Fri evening. I might have to stay and ride on Sun. It's going to be an "easy", right?
I believe the Pine Cone is scheduled for the same weekend as the CCC Kids Trail Tour (we obviously need more weekends!).
- Oct 28, 2001
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The late (1pm) key time on Saturday makes it an "easy". We leave after work on Friday, and our drive is about 8 hours. Usually break it up by staying somewhere along US 2 Friday night, and Saturday morning is just a 2-3 hour drive.Z-8 said:
... And you really ought to ride at least a few sections on Sunday... It's worth the drive! We also stayed and rode Monday last year, which I'd recommend as well.