KTM Mike

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Apr 9, 2001
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Wow - what a great thread! What I really like is the "spirit" of the FES events does not seem to be forgotten! A ton of valid points being made here. A few thoughts..

1) I love the vintage class idea (gee...wonder who suggested it? ;)
2) Ride on Sunday - no points for Saturday. But...would not want to see someone who maybe gives a Sunday event a shot and finds out they are not ready for it, be prevented from doing the FES events in the future. Not sure how to accomplish that.
3) Also agree with limiting trophies in the mens "adult" classes
4) Really think its a great idea to have the little kids to the latest rows.
5) Should limit to strictly 1 "P" rider per "FES" participant (regardless of age..like others have said - just because you are older does not mean you dont need support on the trail!) If not a P rider, must be an X rider...and ALL X riders should go out well before the "competing" riders.
6) The passing topic is a tough one - one one hand, I can see a parent's reluctance to expose their little kid to a pass by a more agressive rider...but...I have seen instances where I swear a "P" rider really seemed to be deliberately "blocking" other riders from passing (and the kid they were with was not a real young one). Some expanded discussion of trail etiquitte really might be good at the riders meeting.
7) I think timekeeping should be part of the FES series - I really would hate to see all of them go to restart format. We need someway to pass down the "art" of timekeeping (not that I have it!)
8) I like Smit Dogs idea of some sort of "moving up to the Sunday events" incentive - be it financial or otherwise. (I admit my bias - one of my kids is a good move up candidate within the next couple years). Hey - how about this idea - I base this on a comment Mitch made to me - he said if he did a Sunday event, he would not want to do the Saturday event - just to much for a newbie to take on racing both days. His concern was that then negatively impacting FES standings. So what if a kid is doing the FES series, but forgoes a race to enter on Sunday - give them some FES points?
9) What about a set of published rules to hand out to participants? Include in that document some timekeeping basics, some info on etiquitte for passing etc.
9) This FES series is one fantastic thing - lets keep it rolling!
 

Smit-Dog

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KTM Mike said:
... I like Smit Dogs idea of some sort of "moving up to the Sunday events" incentive - be it financial or otherwise. (I admit my bias - one of my kids is a good move up candidate within the next couple years). Hey - how about this idea - I base this on a comment Mitch made to me - he said if he did a Sunday event, he would not want to do the Saturday event - just to much for a newbie to take on racing both days. His concern was that then negatively impacting FES standings. So what if a kid is doing the FES series, but forgoes a race to enter on Sunday - give them some FES points?
I can't take credit for the idea (I think it was Jimmy Hunt's), but regardless I like it too.

As far as worrying about skipping an FES event to ride a Sunday event, missing points, too much riding in one weekend... :blah: :blah: :blah:

TIME TO SUCK IT UP BOY - THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT AN ENDURO!!! :yikes:




;)
 

wyatt

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Apr 3, 2002
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F+S,

Are you lining up sponsors for 08 already. Count me in.
I'll check with you at trailfest.

My 2 cents on the FES.

The 2 loop thing works great.....the real little tykes have had enough by the 20 mile mark and the bigger kids get more riding at a faster pace.

Starting the faster groups first and the slower classes later
makes sense. Mixing the little kids in with big kids causes
alot of trouble.

The restart, timekeeping topic has already been discussed at length. It seems that a speed average acts as somewhat of a "governer" and may be safer than a restart full out race to the next check. Fine for the adults maybe not for the kids. The FES is a great place to learn the basics of enduro riding. I agree the cost of timekeeping eqiupment can be costly. Alot can be learned with a sweep hand watch a route sheet and riding corner to corner. Kinda
like learning math before you use a calculator.

Keep em comin. These events are well attended, vital to the sports future and great for quality family time. Thanks to the people who dedicate alot of their time putting these on.
 

TJC510

Mi. Trail Riders
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Oct 22, 2006
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WomanRider said:
No, my daughter wants to beat me. She can't when she follows me into the checks, then we are only a few seconds from each other. Unfortunately for me, she figured out how to beat me.
how, by stealing your bike? :rotfl:

i love the idea about a mini class for the adults. i could break out the old cr80 i used to race harescrambles on and ride that. id limit the size to 150cc though, gives a few more options for bikes.

i had mixed feelings about how the Matthews FES assigned rows. i liked that they had designated rows for the different classes, but there should be some overlap, say 10 rows of overlap and the last 10 rows of anyone/everyone.

Smit-Dog said:
Strongly agree... Minimum 10-11am key time. Distance is also a factor.... the Mini Moose does it right with a 1pm key time. Scoring / results can be processed faster these days, but I also need time to unload, haul, setup (and sometimes troubleshoot) equipment, find and train volunteers, etc. AND get signed-up. I think the clubs would also have a slightly better turnout with a later keytime.
i agree they did it right, we left here at 1am saturday morning and arrived at the staging area at 8am (after getting some McDs breakfast first ;) ) and got a few hours of sleep and then were able to signup and ride. a late keytime would be good as long as both staging areas are in the same spot.

Keep it a FAMILY event, not just a kids or youth event. allow and encourage familys to ride together. id allow the AMA enduro riders to ride and race, ie: keep time and still get scored, but they do not need points or trophies. if they are good enough they will get them sunday.
the main reason i did not ride X for the few i did was to learn timekeeping. last year i only run a few enduros and all i had was a watch and a route sheet. i have learned quite a bit running the FES, i could have run the C class on sunday, but im not a C rider. it was nice to be able to compare scores to my family members as i improved my timekeeping and they improved their riding.

just my .02, TJ
 
2

24mph,m/l

Trail ettequette

CCC riders INTENTIONALLY block for their kids. This issue needs to be addressed at rider's meetings to point out that enduros are competetions, not casual trail rides.
 

Z-8

Mi. Trail Riders
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Jul 25, 2005
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Great thread, lots of ideas. I'm sorry to see fewer dist. events next year :( , as these were the only events we rode this year(our loss).
I would hesitate to make a lot of rules about row designation or support riders because there are so many different situations. Maybe just suggested guidelines?
I like the idea of a note on the route sheet about dealing with traffic at a FUN, FAMILY event. Passing slower riders is a bit of a sore spot for me(I seem to have zero patients if the clock is ticking :bang: ). We got caught behind a couple of bottlenecks at the Pine Cone, at the time it was frustrating, but I don't believe it affected the results at the end of the day. Traffic is just part of the sport, sometimes you're the passer sometimes you're the passee, deal with it.
This has been a great series for my son and I. There are a lot of good poeple involved and I thank you all :cool: !I hope to get my youngest son out for an event next year :ride: .
See you all at Trailfest!
 

bterp67

Member
Apr 5, 2007
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Bottlenecks

I know what you mean by "the clock is ticking". I get the same feeling , but hold back on any aggressive moves.
I noticed a couple bottle necks at Wolverine(not complaining) on the hills. They were a challenge for the little ones. I even got off my bike to help a couple kids up some hills, knowing that I could catch my own son soon enough down the trail. I would suggest if any X or P rider has a chance to help someone, please do. I'm sure the kids like it, and it keeps the encouragement going for them. Also it keeps the event flowing smoother.
 

WomanRider

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Jul 19, 2006
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KTM Mike said:
Wow - what a great thread! What I really like is the "spirit" of the FES events does not seem to be forgotten! A ton of valid points being made here. A few thoughts..

1) I love the vintage class idea (gee...wonder who suggested it? ;)
2) Ride on Sunday - no points for Saturday. But...would not want to see someone who maybe gives a Sunday event a shot and finds out they are not ready for it, be prevented from doing the FES events in the future. Not sure how to accomplish that.
3) Also agree with limiting trophies in the mens "adult" classes
4) Really think its a great idea to have the little kids to the latest rows.
5) Should limit to strictly 1 "P" rider per "FES" participant (regardless of age..like others have said - just because you are older does not mean you dont need support on the trail!) If not a P rider, must be an X rider...and ALL X riders should go out well before the "competing" riders.
6) The passing topic is a tough one - one one hand, I can see a parent's reluctance to expose their little kid to a pass by a more agressive rider...but...I have seen instances where I swear a "P" rider really seemed to be deliberately "blocking" other riders from passing (and the kid they were with was not a real young one). Some expanded discussion of trail etiquitte really might be good at the riders meeting.
7) I think timekeeping should be part of the FES series - I really would hate to see all of them go to restart format. We need someway to pass down the "art" of timekeeping (not that I have it!)
8) I like Smit Dogs idea of some sort of "moving up to the Sunday events" incentive - be it financial or otherwise. (I admit my bias - one of my kids is a good move up candidate within the next couple years). Hey - how about this idea - I base this on a comment Mitch made to me - he said if he did a Sunday event, he would not want to do the Saturday event - just to much for a newbie to take on racing both days. His concern was that then negatively impacting FES standings. So what if a kid is doing the FES series, but forgoes a race to enter on Sunday - give them some FES points?
9) What about a set of published rules to hand out to participants? Include in that document some timekeeping basics, some info on etiquitte for passing etc.
9) This FES series is one fantastic thing - lets keep it rolling!

WELL SAID
I agree with you on these points.
 

WomanRider

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Jul 19, 2006
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Smit-Dog said:
Suggestions for passing at FES events:

1) Rev engine to let them know you're there. Some riders simply can't hear a bike behind them unless you're really reving it within close range, e.g., 5 feet.

2) Make a clean pass on a two track, field, right after road crossing, etc.

3) Look for alternate lines while drafting rider ahead of you. Be ready for a quick decision and pass.

4) Tactfully talk to the slower riders at resets and gas stops about passing.

5) Reward proper etiquette by thanking the riders that pull over.

6) Even with all that, remember it's only for fun and plastic trophies... error on the side of safety.

This was brought up at the last FES rider's meeting, but I'll include a note about it on the sign-up flyer as well.

Number 1 above works if you have a two stroke, but it does not work for my XR. Neither does yelling.

Lots of great ideas and I have used several methods, when I was faster.

I was very disappointed at the riders who rode Mathews. I let several riders by on the 18 mile an hour loop. There was only one kid riding alone on a KX65( I think that is what he was riding) who said thank-you as he went by. I was afraid others faster riders would take out my good leg as they went by me too aggressive.
 

bbarel

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WomanRider said:
Number 1 above works if you have a two stroke, but it does not work for my XR. Neither does yelling.
Sounds like some of the FES riders need to be educated.

In the maen time you need DW to school you in AFM passing techniques!

I've done ENDURO and CCC rides and I've ran across more CCC riders that don't let you by, but I don't have problems with the enduro guys.
 

FlyinRyan

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This thread seems like the biggest complaint is about passing. Being a racer for years passing is always an issue and something that the fast riders have to become good at. Just wait till anyone of you try a Sunday enduro and come up on a group of slower riders on an off camber (tight woods, etc) and it's impossible to pass without taking some severe chances, then you'll know frustration.

Anyway, it sounds like some education at the riders meeting will really help. At the enduro I help put on we get a lot of one time riders and I always stress moving over for faster riders at the riders meeting, seems to really help. I know that at the Matthews event my son was first, then me, then my dad. When riders would come up behind us my dad would yell at me and then pull over, I would in turn yell at my son to pull over and we'd let everyone by. I think that worked well an I hope that we didn't hold anyone up for long. But I've also taught my son how and when to pull over safely. Maybe with some coaching at the riders meeting people we start to get the idea.

I forgot to mention that I think Keytime should be no earlier then 11:00am on Saturday. This would allow people a little more time to travel on Saturday morning, or Friday night but still have the events over at a decent time.
 

UP Magoo

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Apr 4, 2002
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FWIW, I'll add my .02 -->

I am in full support of keeping the FUN in the FES (I prefer to call them Kid's Enduros).

The events should be timekeeping events. Computers must be prohibited. We need to keep the understanding of how an enduro works (timekeeping) in mind. A watch and an odometer is fine -- I rode enduros for 5 years this way -- and still feel more comfortable with my watch than the computer...

Two loops is preferred. This keeps the fun in it for the young kids, and can still challenge the "bigger kids." Second loop can be higher speed average, more challenging trail, etc.

All aspects of Enduro should be learned by participating in these events. Passing, being passed, and etiquette on the trail. At Enduros, I give faster riders fair opportunities to pass me, and fully 99% of the guys say "Thank You!" I'm shocked at the lack of cooperation at the Kids events.

The idea is to give kids an opportunity to do what the Big Kids do. It is also to encourage newbies to have some fun, and graduate to real enduros. I think these events are becoming MUCH too competitive. IMO, the emphasis should be on FUN and LEARNING, not on competition. If you want to emphasize competition, C Class at an enduro isn't any harder than most FES Events.

Trophies and year end awards should be for participants under the age of 18 ONLY. If you're over 18 and competing in an FES event, it should be for the learning experience that it is meant for. Maybe the top finishers in age 16+ classes should be mandated to go to C Class (like regular enduro riders get promoted from C to B and from B to A).
 
Last edited:

Wolverine423

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UP Magoo said:
FWIW, I'll add my .02 -->

I am in full support of keeping the FUN in the FES (I prefer to call them Kid's Enduros).

I'm shocked at the lack of cooperation at the Kids events.

I think these events are becoming MUCH too competitive. IMO, the emphasis should be on FUN and LEARNING, not on competition. If you want to emphasize competition, C Class at an enduro isn't any harder than most FES Events.

Trophies and year end awards should be for participants under the age of 18 ONLY. If you're over 18 and competing in an FES event, it should be for the learning experience that it is meant for. Maybe the top finishers in age 16+ classes should be mandated to go to C Class (like regular enduro riders get promoted from C to B and from B to A).
This so very true!

Saturday FES riders REALLY need to keep things in perspective! If you really want to bang bars then ride a Sunday event! You will get what you’re looking for.

Sometimes I must really laugh at certain situations but there’s been a few where I’ve had to ride up to a few riders {16 to 40 plus} and explain them that putting my 8 yr old down on the ground wouldn’t be in their best interest.

I feel that at every FES riders meeting it should be covered by the clubs as to what the FES stands for and why they were originated. Things are getting a little out of hand.

I agree with you Magoo on the 18yr trophy cut off as well!!!

I understand this is a fairly new series and I’m positive F&S will work out the growing pains and the sandbaggers will be dealt with.
 

bucky63

Member
Apr 11, 2007
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What might work is to have a post trophy meeting where the better riders are invited to learn more about making the jump to the Sunday event and encourage them to do so.

The Sunday enduro organizers could give a one time waiver to fast FES riders that have not run a Sunday enduro before to compete in both events in a weekend.
 

Wolverine423

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TJC510 said:
Keep it a FAMILY event, not just a kids or youth event. allow and encourage familys to ride together. id allow the AMA enduro riders to ride and race, ie: keep time and still get scored, but they do not need points or trophies. if they are good enough they will get them sunday.
the main reason i did not ride X for the few i did was to learn timekeeping. last year i only run a few enduros and all i had was a watch and a route sheet. i have learned quite a bit running the FES, i could have run the C class on sunday, but im not a C rider. it was nice to be able to compare scores to my family members as i improved my timekeeping and they improved their riding.

just my .02, TJ
Tom Jr, I see that you are leading the 2007 J class {20-29} and you do ride the Sundays events in the "B" open class. Does your post above include your forfeiting the FES points as well to "Keeping it real" in the FES?

By the way it’s good to see big family’s like yours and the Soekensons supporting the FES!

DW
 

TJC510

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Oct 22, 2006
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Wolverine423 said:
Tom Jr, I see that you are leading the 2007 J class {20-29} and you do ride the Sundays events in the "B" open class. Does your post above include your forfeiting the FES points as well to "Keeping it real" in the FES?

By the way it’s good to see big family’s like yours and the Soekensons supporting the FES!

DW
forfeiting my points would not bother me. i rode at the matthews FES with my sister as a "P" rider as i do not want anymore points. ive been trying to get my friend (who is in second place) to go to one more and pass me in points. i will be at roselawn this weekend riding "X" or "P" again as well.
 

Wolverine423

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TJC510 said:
forfeiting my points would not bother me. iQUOTE]




Good for you! Now that's keeping it real! :cool: Maybe some others will see your example and follow suit.

DW
 

Smit-Dog

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Another thought on FES riders considering a Sunday ride: Allow the older kids (16+) to work an FES event (marking trail, working a check, pulling arrows) for FES worker points (finish average, not 1st place points) IF they ride the Sunday event that same weekend.
 

Fred T

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Smit-Dog said:
Another thought on FES riders considering a Sunday ride: Allow the older kids (16+) to work an FES event (marking trail, working a check, pulling arrows) for FES worker points (finish average, not 1st place points) IF they ride the Sunday event that same weekend.


It's an interesting thought and has positive intentions but I feel that the series has enough help especially when it's the Sat before a Sunday race-helpers are sometimes easy to find. If some one wants to try a Sunday ride and not ride Sat I guess it has some merit but will most likely be on a limited basis i'll bet. I don not think they should get first place points if they work though because the series will most likely be smaller in 2008. Maybe only 1 drop. Once the series schedule is developed they would have to get their "worker points request" in to Mr Maurer for his determination of elgibility I would guess.


I don't know I hate to see such a simple and fun series become more complicated with more and more rules...it's just for fun, to bring familys out to ride and build the sport. I thank Mike for his vision and hard work to build up the sport. :cool:
 

Smit-Dog

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Fred T said:
It's an interesting thought and has positive intentions but I feel that the series has enough help especially when it's the Sat before a Sunday race-helpers are sometimes easy to find. If some one wants to try a Sunday ride and not ride Sat I guess it has some merit but will most likely be on a limited basis i'll bet. I don not think they should get first place points if they work though because the series will most likely be smaller in 2008. Maybe only 1 drop. Once the series schedule is developed they would have to get their "worker points request" in to Mr Maurer for his determination of elgibility I would guess.


I don't know I hate to see such a simple and fun series become more complicated with more and more rules...it's just for fun, to bring familys out to ride and build the sport. I thank Mike for his vision and hard work to build up the sport. :cool:
Not trying to create more rules or make it more complicated, just trying to address some concerns of current FES riders who are considering, but are hesitant, to ride the Sunday event. Also agree that it'd be average finish for worker points.

We have nearly 300 FES riders who are eligible and may have interest in trying a Sunday event, just trying to come up with some suggestions on how to help in that transition.

Yes, it's all in fun and brings families out to ride together, but it certainly has brought out the competitive nature in some, hasn't it! ;)
 

fatherandson

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It was a very good year - eight successful events = a great series!

We have ordered the banquet awards and Moose Racing has been very supportive - AGAIN!! I want to encourage the 16-19 year olds to ride on Sunday = FES graduates! I have some ideas and there may be some envelopes attached to their banquet awards.

I hope everyone can make it to celebrate our season!
 

fatherandson

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Smit-Dog said:
Another thought on FES riders considering a Sunday ride: Allow the older kids (16+) to work an FES event (marking trail, working a check, pulling arrows) for FES worker points (finish average, not 1st place points) IF they ride the Sunday event that same weekend.

Bill - when we discussing this topic on Saturday night, I was in the process of driving Freddie's rig and getting lost.

I do think it is a good idea, but I have heard of only one FES rider who was concerned about missing a Saturday event in order ride on Sunday. Here is what I am thinking about guidelines IF we were to do worker points:

- the rider needs to old enough to drive, but young enough not to drink legally (16-19)
- the rider must send me a note and let me know which FES event they plan to work. They will work on my team - Mitch S. knows how much work is expected to earn the points. Working one day in not enough.
- finally, the request must include the paid pre-entry for the Sunday event

I have some other ideas to encourage these riders to graduate to the Sunday events. If you know of someone who is considering it, have them get ahold of me to discuss.
 

Smit-Dog

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Hope I didn't cause you to take the wrong exit! Sounds like your hands were full with turning that rig around... Where was the navigator?!? Or was SHE already sleeping...

Sounds like you have some good ideas already in the works for helping FES riders make the transition.

BTW, is there a known drinking problem with the existing FES work crew?!? :ohmy:

While the FES series put up some great attendence numbers this year, after some more digging found out that the vast majority (70%) still only ride 1 event, and only 10% ride 4 or more events.
 
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