Gearing Down a KDX 220

[Instaurare]

Most of my riding has been on tight and narrow woods trails, with many obstacles, and I have found that even though I swapped my 13 tooth front sprocket for a 12, I would still like to be able to go even lower. This would bring me into trials bike territory, as I used to own a Honda TL250, which for many years was my favorite bike. Does anyone know offhand how many teeth are on the stock rear sprocket of a 2004 220R? I figure that if I go up either 3 or 4 teeth I will be able to get one lower gear. Even with my small 12 tooth front sprocket, I expect I will need to get a new O-ring chain----any recommendations as to what to order ? Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Jaybird]

I think stock for the 220R is 13/47 (?)

What makes you think you would need to get a ring chain for a gearing change?

 

[Instaurare]

I just thought that the stock chain would be unable to handle a larger rear sprocket. I sure hope that I am wrong, in that a new chain would cost about $100. Do you think that the stock chain is long enough for a 12/51 combination?

 

[Mrobbins]

The stock 108 link chain will be to short. A 13/50 needs 110 links. Search for a calculator.

 

[m304051]

Yep, it's true. Even if you only went up to 49 tooth in the rear, you would still need a new chain.

 

[Jaybird]

You will def. need a longer chain, but a ring chain is not manditory. A standard chain can handle anything a ring chain can, heck they are the same animal, really.

You DON'T have to pay such prices for the chain. Do a search for motorcycle chains and save yourself some money.

 

[Instaurare]

I wanted to get an O-ring chain since they do not stretch as much, and the bike comes from the factory with one as standard equipment. So for a 22/51 combination it looks like I would need a 111 or 110 link chain? I will do a search for a calculator.

 

[Jaybird]

If you are going to dirt bike, you need a chain breaker. Always buy your chains in stock 120 link sizes and break them as you need them. It's a simple task. The aggrevation alone for screwing up just one chain buy will justify the cost of a breaker.

btw...a ring chain won't stretch as much as a standard chain during the first part of their lives...However, the standard chain can last longer than any ring chain if taken care of properly, also a ring chain is a very vulnerable item-with just the loss of one ring, the chain is subject to kill your sprockets and itself fast. Just food for thought.
If you were prepared to fork out $100 for a ring chain, then I highly suggest you do a proper search for motorcycle chains. When you find a place that sells them for reasonable rates, get both a ring chain and a standard. Run the standard and take good care of it...when the sloppy rides come, change out to the ring. Taking good care of the two chains can give you, at very least, a couple years of good service from both chains and sprockets.

Aaa...nothing wrong with running a ring chain all the time, don't get me wrong. Just DONT spend $100 on it.

 

[Braahp]

I can't think of one chain that costs $100. Maybe a Sidewinder. Most can be had in the $50+ range. Get the Oring chain......simply better than a normal chain. Jaybird had too much bird. :))

 

[jamin326]

check out www.rockymountainmc.com they have some good prices, and look into a xring chain about $50 those are very good, it's pretty much an o-ring chain

 

[Jaybird]

Braahp,
They aren't "simply better than a normal chain".

They are the same chain with orings to help keep grease from the factory in and contaminants out. In a perfect world they work, in a not-so-perfect world they lead to more trouble than a standard chain can.

The thing is, in both worlds, the standard can last longer.

I always harp on chains, but you know....folks neglect their chains and sprockets. Sure they think they have the bomb set-up and take care of it to the n'th....but they don't...not in reality. I am only adding a little advise that is based on years of experience and engineering fact.

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on why you make the claim you do? Go ahead and get techy, I will ask for clarifications from some of the smart folks here, when I get stumped on a word or two.
:)

 

[Instaurare]

I got that $100 quote from my local Kawa dealer, the same one who I did not get the bike from, as he was adding a $200 markup to the full retail price of the KDX, so I will take your advice and get one from online. And a chain breaker as well. From what I've read here, seems it will need to be cut to about 110 or 111 links. I had mentioned the O-ring since it was what came stock with the KDX 220, but thru the discussion I've learned a lot about the pros and cons of both. If anyone else has any favorite places to purchase these items from, please list them, and I will make some calls and do some comparison shopping. Thanks to everyone who responded, your help is much appreciated!

 

[tall1]

I have a 1999 KDX220 with 12/49 teeth sprockets and the stock chain just fit with the chain adjusters on the lowest position. The bike looked brand new when I bought it so I don't think the chain had much stretch on it. If you use a 50 tooth spocket the get the next longer chain. Stock is a DID 108 links. Next size up is 110. The biggest sprocket in the Rocky Mountain Catalog I see is a 50 tooth. If you buy the Titax aluminum , it will save you a pound over the stock sprocket.

 

[dixie]

Yes you can gear down a little more Put a 11 tooth on and you are good to go no chain to buy. Been running the 11-47 for 8 years in Hair-Scramble-GNCC Pull real low in the tight stuff , just a little more shifting on MX-tracks.

 

[Instaurare]

That is a great idea........I didn't even know they made an 11 tooth. I had been cautioned when I got the 12 tooth that excessive wear might be a factor, which I have not yet seen, but then again, I have less than 300 miles on this bike. Do you have a wear problem with your 11 tooth? And do you reckon that going down one tooth in front translates to a 3 or 4 tooth increase in the rear?

 

[Jaybird]

It's a fact that the smaller the CS sprocket, the harder the chain has to work to accomplish the same.

To figure ratio, it is simple...
Divide the rear sprocket tooth number by the front. Ex: 12/47 Divide 47 by 12 and your ratio is 3.9:1

Divide 47 by 11 and your ratio is 4.27:1
Divide 51 by 12 and your ratio is 4.25:1
The simple way to look at it is "If my rear sprocket turns one full revolution, how many times will my CS sprocket turn?"

The 12/51 set-up is virtually the same as the 11/47, however the fact is that the 12/51 will last longer.
There is no reckoning involved, it's all basic math and engineering.

 

[dixie]

Yes, there is maybe a little more wear it depends on how much mud, sand, type terrian you are in, Only two fronts one chain in eight years still on same rear sprockt, Every three or four Races and Hard Trail Rides I Reverse the sprockts. IF you could ride a gear or two Higher it should Be less stress on the chain Others May disagree I may go to the 12-51 later when the rear evers wears out. It has work for me on mine 95 KDXer When she was new and Shiney IF the woods are supper tight go to 11-51 You will be able to do 3 rd gear starts. My wifes bike KE-100 I geared 12-74 it would clime thin air at a idle. The only other trade offs are you will be Fast in the tight stuff and a little slower in the wide open, gas mileage down alittle to.

 

[Jaybird]

The terrain and conditions really don't matter when comparing how long one sprocket will last against another. If both sprockets met with identical conditions, the larger will last longer.

Let me get this straight...you have had one chain, and one rear sprocket on for eight years. And in that time you have worn out two front sprockets?

What sort of chain do you have? And, what do you think may have worn out those two front sprockets?

 

[skipro3]

Instaurare,
Do you want to ride and have fun, or do you want to piss about the pros and cons of chain and sprocket combinations? I think you want to ride and others here want to beat the dead horse about what is "best", or worse, try and impress you with their expertise.
It sounds like if you went with an 11 tooth CS sprocket and an o-ring chain, you will have the desired effect you were looking for. Yes, you might go through one or two CS sprockets and maybe even a chain over the lifetime of your bike, but so what?!!? Bikes should be set up to enjoy, not last a long time. Anyone looking for a set up that won't wear out is looking for a bike they don't plan on ever riding, or is going to spend a lot of time cleaning and lubing their chain. An o-ring chain requires much less attention than a standard chain. (IMHO) There is some debate about an o-ring chain sapping some power from the bike due to resistance and such, but unless you are a pro rider, you will never notice such a small drag.

I too have the KDX220 and it is a different beast from the 200. If I may suggest: your riding terrain and style,(tight woods and almost trials like speeds), could be more manageable with a flywheel weight. I put one on my bike and could not believe the difference in the bottom end performance. The bike is almost impossible to stall and the power delivery is verrrry smooth with no hard hit at an inopertune moment. Jetting is also critical at these speeds and rpms to prevent plug fouling, so if you haven't jetted yet, you may want to think about that as well. For sure if you are running stock jetting. Have fun and good luck!
P.S. as far as brands of chains or sprockets stick to the more more popular name brands and you will be fine.

 

[Instaurare]

I really welcome all of the detailed feedback I am getting on this, since the more I know the more likely I will get it right the first time around. The 11 tooth sounds like a no-lose choice, since I would otherwise be discarding the perfectly good, new chain that I currently run. The reason I asked about excessive wear was that my background is mountain biking, and it was a kind of axiom among us that when a front sprocket was in need of change, you generally would also get a new chain and new rear sprocket also, since the chain conformed itself to the worn sprockets. Seems to me that in motorcycles this is not as important? Since this is just a woods bike for me (no competition riding), is a steel sprocket longer lasting than a more expensive aluminum one? Do riders choose aluminum only for the weight saving?

There are a few situations I get into in which the easiest way to get across is to dismount and run the bike at close to idle, walking beside it. With low gearing, there is no need to feather the clutch, makes it much easier. I did get a Stealhy flywheel weight, which, as you said, Skipro, is a major improvement. The only size they came in was 10 oz., and I wish they had made a 14 oz.

 

[Jaybird]

There really should be no difference in the amount of time spending for maintenance of ring chain or a standard. They both need the same attention.

Many will give you some info based soley on their own anecdotal experience, and claim it to be fact. Others may give you actual reasons why things are like they are, and not simply their opinion of such.

I prefer the facts, as opposed to someones dreamed up absolutes.

Instaurare,
You were correct in your thinking with bicycle chains and sprockets. There is NO difference in the science of chain drives be they on bicycles, dirt bikes, or machinery. There are absolutes that hold true no matter the application, when using a chain drive.

The reason you gave for changing out the chain and rear sprocket on your bicycle when the front gets worn is quite correct. A sprocket DOES NOT wear out a chain. It is the other way around. When you see any deforming, on either sprocket, it is a direct result of the chain lengthening in pitch from wear.

If you have a chain/sprocket set-up that is wearing the front sprocket, then you have a worn chain. No question about it.
Your rear may not have seen as much deforming yet due to a couple of things. For one, many run hard steel rear sprockets thinking they last longer. The DO last longer, but simply because they don't accept the wear that a worn chain places on it like an aluminum would. The hard steel front will see the wear faster because it is doing the work with less teeth than the rear. (this also relates to the smaller the sprocket, the faster the wear)

I have seen situations where a person changes their front sprocket out and continue to run the chain and rear sprocket. The chain was worn to begin with, hense the wear of the front sprocket....however they haven't noticed the damage on the rear, so they change out the front, and leave on the old chain only to see wear on the front sprocket again. What is happening is that the chain is getting increasingly worn....and the front sprocket with it's new pitch teeth, and the hard steel rear sprocket are accelerating the wear on the already stretched chain. (this is the only situation that a sprocket can place wear on a chain) Pretty soon you have a situation where the person is running a dangerously worn chain and quite happy with their set-up.

Good chain/sprocket maintenance means that you will get the most life out of your equipment. And you will also gain in performance, if that is of any concern to you.
If you keep your chain (standard or ring, makes no difference) clean, well lubed, and adjusted properly, you will see good service from it. However, in our conditions a chain will eventually wear and elongate. You must keep an eye on where your chain measurement is from time to time. You don't have to be anal about it....you just need to measure it whenever you see a need to tighten it up at the adjusters. If the chain isn't getting slack, it hasn't elongated yet. If you do find slack, even the most simple of persons will realise that there has been a growth take place. Any sort of elongation will directly relate to the sprocket teeth, as they are perfectly matched in pitch when new. Once a chain elongates, it is no longer a perfect match. That is when wear starts on the sprockets.
An engineering fact (that holds true for bicycles, dirt bikes, machinery, etc..) is that most any sprocket will withstand a slight variation in pitch before it will wear the sprocket. This accepted percent of growth is ~1-2% from new.

In theroy, if you change out your chain when it reaches a point of being 1-1.5% of new pitch, then your sprockets can last indefinately. There are other factors like rocks and debris damaging the teeth, but all you need is a visual inspection to identify that sort of problem.

Yeah, I go indepth with chain and sprocket maintenance, but it is one of the most important parts of your machine. Neglect it if you want, and accept advise from those who choose to neglect their power transmission, but you will be happier and wealthier if you practice good maintenance.

I will back up any of my statements, with engineering data that can be accessed easily. The goof-balls who try to steer you away from this sort of advise have a sore spot, because most of them have never practiced good chain/sprocket maintenance, and quite frankly don't have a good clue on how to do such.

I can tell you this for fact...*if you think you are going to get a bikes lifetime out of a single chain, you are only fooling yourself. You should also not try to fool others with such ignorance. *(disclaimer...if you have a parade bike that you shine on, but rarely ride....this statement is null and void)

Skiblo,
If you have any more to offer...then by all means offer it. Your same old song and dance (which hinges back to when you got your feelings hurt becasue you were shown to be full of it) gets tiring.  Sure you may be tired of hearing about my advise on chains, but it's a simple matter of you just passing on by. If you are so concerned that I'm full of it on the issue, why don't you offer up something of substance? YHO isn't much IMO.

(45-56) :think:

 

 

[skipro3]

Bla Bla Bla..........I didn't mention any names and I am certainly don't have hurt feelings. Jaybird, you are rude and crass. Your post should be edited by the admin folks here for the personal attack you have directed at me. It is you, the expert that is offended by me and my "anecdotal experience". Throw all the science you want to at any problem and I will still value a field report from an end user any day. The fact that you sell the equipment you claim expertise on and thinly viel the spam link you add at the bottom of your posts negates your credibility as an expert.
Like I said, you can waste your time on the "engineers" or you can ride. Even Jaybird admits that you aren't going to get a chain / sprocket set that will last a lifetime, so don't worry about that and gear up for what works and for what keeps your down time to a minimum.
You don't need to be a self proclaimed expert to take advantage of any technology out there. Heck, you don't even need to have to understand how that technology works, just enjoy the improvements and ride. Unless of course, you are into all the ins and outs of the chain and sprocket. In that case find an unbiased source for your information and not a dealer who stalks the forums out there (with links to their sales sites) and ambushes every thread related to the wares they peddle.

Instaurare,
Call the folks at Stealhy about that 14 oz flywheel weight. I have found them to be very helpful and they can make weights in any size you want. They may even credit you back for the 10 oz you bought.

 

[fuzzy]

There really should be no difference in the amount of time spending for maintenance of ring chain or a standard. They both need the same attention.

I kinda disagree. O-rings hold in grease, but this also means they hold in dirt. Most people I've seen 'properly' maintaining an o-ring chain involve removing it and running through a solvent tank, then regreasing. This type of cleaning isn't really necessary on a non-oring chain as you can flush most the crud out with the chain on.

If an o-ring chain isn't flushed out it will start to bind up over time, and in my case can bind in the coutershaft locking the rear wheel and chucking you into a tree This happened on a ATC 250R I had once purchased used, on it's first test-ride, without really going over it first--learned my lesson there!! :) I have since never replaced a chain w/ an o-ring chain. In fact I buy $10 no-name chains on sale, liberally flush/lube with LPS after every ride. Adjust as necessary and replace every 1-2 seasons. IMO, it's hard to beat.

My 2c...

 

[Jaybird]

Skislo,
It would be do my advantage to see folks wear out their chains and sprockets as soon as possible, if I were so inclined to use this, or any forum, to "peddle" my wares. That is clearly not my intent. I am offering information that I happen to be aware of. You and your "valid" field tests are for crap, IMHO. I'll just leave it at that.

fuzzy,
Maintaing a chain requires proper adjustment, cleaning, and lubrication. It matters not if it's a ring chain or standard. A ring chain does in fact hold in lubricant in the pin/bushing area, but there is no protection or lubrication provided to the roller/bushing area. That you must provide. Actually to properly care for a ring chain, you must be a bit more gentle with it than a standard to insure you don't damage a ring.
LPS is a very poor choice as a lubricant, but makes a great water discplacer, for use just after washing and prior to lube.

 

[Braahp]

Jaybird and Rohrich.............
'birds of a feather flock together"