Going to court for riding, legal mess, need advice

stormer94

~SPONSOR~
May 30, 2001
597
0
Well, you hear about it, and it actually happened to us. Myself and 2-3 other DRN'rs from Montana and North Dakota. And we need some good advice. Hopefully there is a big enough pool here that we will get something to help.

Here's the abbreviated version. I just today got the Summons to appear in court over this day we rode in September. Mind you, I never got a ticket, never signed or recieved anything related to this until I got a summons in the mail.

We are charged with a "...class B misdemeanor, in violation of Section 12.1-21-05 (1)(b) NDCC, in that (my name goes here) Along with others did willfully damage public property to wit: said defendent did ride a motorcycle off legally established trail causing damage to grass, terrain and real property belonging to the United States of America...."

This is the State of North Dakota as the plaintiff, versus myself and a few other DRN guys that hang here.

Here's the story, and we need advise on what to say, what not to say, who to talk to and how to make this go away. Mind you, I'm not afraid to fight for what's right, and am well healed enough to do it and help our other rider friends that went on the ride. I'm not worried about a couple thousand in legal fees if that should happen.

In September a NorthDakota riding buddy of mine said they had contacted the forest service about riding in this remote location 50 miles from town, and 80 miles in the middle of nowhere. We were given a map by the forest service that said we can ride there, and on the map was a bright orange sticker that said we had to ride on established trails. Sounded good to us. We loaded up some guys, I took my family, the neighborkid and a birthday cake for one of our buddies that turned 40 that week. Figured it would be cool to suprise him out in the middle of nowhere with a cake (for the record, that was fun and worth the effort). Sorry Frito, now everybody knows your old....

We got to this spot, suited up, 2 of the guys explained that we needed to be on trails, actually made an effort, and off we went down some trails following the guys familiar with the area that and had contacted the forest service.

The loop we were on took about 2 hours to complete. We came back on the main road, stopped at camp, at a sandwich, had some suprise B'day cake, some laughs and headed back out on the loop again, family, friends, kids, etc...

When we came back from that second loop, you could see up the road there were like 20 cars at the parking area, and we only accounted for 5 of them. I get there and see a bunch of ranch/farmer looking trucks (with ranch/farmer guys in them), and some Sheriff guy talking to my son who made it back to camp about 4 minutes before I straggled in.

It would appear that the farmers were pissed, and thought we should not be there, and called the law. Took the poor cop 90 minutes to drive out there, and then he had to wait with the posse about 2 hours until we got back. We were very cool, very level headed and polite the whole time. We showed that we had in good faith sent for and recieved a map of the area from the state saying that it was okay to ride there, and how they wanted us to ride it. Which we feel we did, to the best of our abilities, and as best we remember it.

We told the Sheriff how we had paperwork to be there, how people we know had talked to the forest service about GPS'ing the trails there for the cycle guys. If ever there was a group of guys that made a good faith effort to ride an area, it was us. We found the information, sent for it, recieved it, had it with us, and went.

If there is any thorny issue to the whole thing, is that this is a known riding area for a lot of cities in the area. There were tracks there near the main camp that were cycle tracks. I'm not talking Bermed up tracks, but the kind of track you'd leave if one guy rode off into the woods to take a leak. As best we can surmise, they did not come from our group. We are guessing at this point, haven't seen the charges, that they are chapped about that. But wouldn't they have to prove that they were ours specifically, and to charge a guy, wouldn't you have to say, "that's the guy officer, I saw him ride right there, his bike made the track, and I saw it".

We followed the trails, end of story. Even when the cops were there and we didn't know it, they saw us leave on the trail and return on a trail.

The problem for all of us is that we are all mostly self employed businessman with families and work obligations. How far should we go to fight this thing? I have to drive 3-4 hours to another state just to see the judge. We have it from some attorney involved that if we all come on board that he would drop the misdeamenor to a careless driving ticket... WHAT THE HECK IS THAT? We are 70 miles from civilization.

One of the guys we rode with works for a company that has a strict policy of "PERFECT DRIVING RECORD", the guy could lose his job over this. Personally, I could care less about a misdemeanor, does that mean I won't get a government loan for college? I'm 40 years old, should I care? I really don't know, and probably need to have somebody explain it further.

How does a Misdemeanor effect my life? It sounds like a $50-$100 ticket if we are found guilty.

The careless ticket they are offering is like $30 but 6 points of my dirvers license, and think of the insurance increases, OYYY! I insure a lot of cars, that's a killer. But does eventually come off the record, but at what price? $2000-$4000 in additional insurance over 3-4 years till it drops off your record.

We belive that we did not "Willfully" damage anything and did our best to abide by the rules. We showed good faith in obtaining the necessary information and abiding by it and producing the information when needed. We took our families and neighbor kids for a Sunday ride and even managed to smuggle in a Birthday cake. I can't help but think we are getting the short end here.

We're not a bunch of drunked up morons (no offence to any drunked up morons reading this), We didn't go out there with guns, shoot up signs, roost up the countryside, toss bear cans everywhere and chase the wildlife around.

Trust me, you know the old saying, "there are two sides to every sotry"... That doesn't apply here. This is the story. Sad as it seems.

What should we do??????????????????????????

Thanks for any and all advise you might have.

-Bob Stormer
Glasgow, Montana
 
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truespode

Moderator / Wheelie King
Jun 30, 1999
7,978
249
Originally posted by stormer94
We belive that we did not "Willfully" damage anything and did our best to abide by the rules. We showed good faith in obtaining the necessary information and abiding by it and producing the information when needed. We took our families and neighbor kids for a Sunday ride and even managed to smuggle in a Birthday cake.

That is the best thing right there IMO. Go to court and fight it. It may cost you a lawyer but if you don't it will cost you a lot in insurance money anyway.



(no offence to any drunked up morons reading this),

None taken :)

Ivan
 

oldguy

Always Broken
Dec 26, 1999
9,419
0
My suggestion is to make your first "appearance" by letter. Try to find out in advance who in the prosecutors office is assigned the file and make sure the letter is addressed to that person. Detail your concerns in a well thought out letter detailing (with copies of any documentation you have) all the efforts you made to locate the legal riding area. At this point be honest (actually all the way thru do this) but don't admit guilt. Request that either the prosecutor contact you or ask how to contact them by phone to discuss the matter.
Ultimately if you are not guilty let them know you firmly believe this and wish to pursue your right to a trial but do not word it as a threat "I'll see you in court!!!". They make their living in court and it just doesn't scare them. You may need to contact a local attorney to act in your behalf but once you hire an attourney the prosecutor may no longer talk to you about the case without your attourney (ethics rules)
Do not send pictures of your bikes because at trial the witness would have access to them prior to testifying to memorize a description. Instead if it goes to trial have pictures of the bike He identified taken without any changes from the time of the incident.
I am confused how a ticket for riding offroad can cost you points on your Drivers licence as in Wis that wouldn't happen unless you were on a road at the time of the violation.

In the end maintain calm, honest attitudes.
Good luck
 

joereitman

Member
Jul 2, 2003
540
0
Get an attorney; check martindale.com for a good attorney that practices in the area where court is scheduled. Find someone A or B rated with at least 5 years of experience. See if there is a right to a jury trial so the case can be bound over to a higher court. The prosecuting attorney in that court will probably not be interested in spending any time on this kind of case and will plead it out to an even lower, no points charge.

Get your hands on a North Dakota code and see if the offense carries a possible jail sentence. If so there should be a right to appointed counsel for any of you that qualify as "indigent", which is fairly easy to show in some states. Instant free lawyer. But since you all are self employed you may not qualify unless your income is very low.

While checking out the code determine the exact elements of the offense with which you are charged. Remember they have to prove you guilty Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. Sounds like from what you said there is reasonable doubt.

What proof of damage do they have? What is their evidence of wilfulness? How fresh were the tracks of the offending bike? Did the tracks match any of your bikes? Were photos taken? How many tracks were there off the proper path? Where did they lead to? Which direction were they going (per roost)? Are the tracks consistent with your direction of travel? Can the state address these issues and rule out other explanations beyond a reasonable doubt?

Had there been a long period of no rain, such that the tracks could have been there a while? When were other riders there? Did ANY of the 15 rancher/farmer dudes see you off the beaten path? They may not like bikes but since you were polite and most country folks are honest, they should tell the truth. Remember, you have the right to file a discovery request in most cases, and get any incident report and names and addresses of all witnesses. Consider having your lawyer call them, do a phone interview, and subpoena every one of them that cannot say they saw you off the beaten path, and that your lawyer thinks will be truthful on the stand.

Have you kept all your documentation of permission to ride? You will need it in court.

This sounds like a case where if you offer to pay the full amount of the fine, but to a substantially reduced charge that carries few or no points (such as simple trespass or something like loitering) it can get worked out without further hassle and your bud doesn't need to worry about losing his license.

Good luck.
 

FritoBandito

Member
Sep 18, 2001
147
0
Thanks for your input on this subject. I am one of the guys that is being charged, and I have many questions about how this is being handled also. To clarify, we have two well known lawyers who are members of our MX club and they have volunteered their services, (to a point) and if we do go to court, I am not real worried about the cost unless this gets to be a real fight. I would like to pay a fine, and make the whole thing go away. We can keep you all posted as we go through this, and maybe we will all be able to laugh about the whole thing------ someday. But it might take a while before I think its funny.
 

jeffd

Naïve Texan
N. Texas SP
Jun 9, 2000
1,610
0
Man, I hate to see this kind of stuff. It appears, for whatever reason, there is a local agenda being pushed around that is creating these hard-line tactics. In the end, no one wins - but you have to fight this on principle alone. Have you contacted the Blue Ribbon Coalation? If not - do so now!

-jeffd
 

CRSpeedy

Member
Nov 24, 2002
77
0
I once was charged with trespassing. Even tho there were conflicting signs posted , I could'nt talk the cop out of the ticket. After the cop left , I took pictures of the conflicting signs , went to the arrainment, showed the prosecutor, he asked me if I stole or damaged any thing,
thanked me for bringing the pictures in and said he was just going drop this case.
Show him your evidence that you got maps and permission from the FS and maybe he will drop it too.
 

Slips

Member
Jan 24, 2004
102
0
Dang, I wrote you a long response and it said I wasn't logged in! Arggg.

Not giving you legal advise here. Just outlining some general strategies.

Anyway, contact a criminal defense attorney. Quit discussing what you allegedly did. Make sure the attorney is a criminal defense attorney, not a civil one. Trust me on that. Civil law and criminal law are as different as motocross bikes and hot air balloons. They are modes for getting something accomplished but take completely different skills.

If you get a prosecutor that recently switched sides to defense and that has worked in the county you are accused in, that is usually a big plus. They will know the judge, prosecutors etc. Often very helpful.

Don't pay for a "name" on an attorney. I had rather have some smart upcoming attorney willing to work hard than a "name" any day. Cheaper, and much more effective in general.

Remember the burden is on the State, not you. Someone has to actually come to court and be willing to say they actually saw you riding where it was not permitted. Of course at that point you might be able to claim a defense to prosecution by showing you had a need to ride there the law permits.

My humble opinion, don't make this a crusade unless you are willing to pay the price. Beat the rap and move on is a perfectly good policy.

In Texas a Class B misdemeanor is punishable by jail time. Your state can well be different. If you see you really are going to get hammered, which I doubt, and get forced to plea make sure you get deferred adjudication. That means it is completely off your record and can be expunged as if it never happened as soon as your probation is over.

Also if it is dropped to a ticket only type offense but you violated nothing tell them to take a hike. It has been my experience that most witnesses will NOT show up to lie on people. They may lie to the cops initially but once they realize they can go to jail for perjury it's rare to find someone willing to go to trial and lie under oath... And usually if they do show you could still get the ticket right before trial if you realize they really do intend to take the stand and lie. Careful there though and follow your attorney's advise.


If an attorney doesnt know those sort of basic things I have mentioned run, dont walk, and find one with some sense and experience. There are all sorts out there, good, bad and ugly.

Good luck to you. Sounds like you have a good case and I imagine it will work out.
 

Slips

Member
Jan 24, 2004
102
0
Oh, I wanted to mention one thing more. Again, not giving you legal advise, just outlining some general principles.

I totally disagree on you contacting the prosecutor and discussing your case. That is what an attorney is for. Anything you say will be remembered quite well by the prosecutor. In some Texas courts prosecutors do not want to even talk with people because they mess themselves up so badly. They had rather talk with the attorneys.

Another reason is your attorney will be able to find exactly what the State has if the court has an open file policy. Hopefully that is the case. If not, it's much more difficult knowing exactly what evidence the State has.

Do whatever you want, but again if you can afford an attorney, shop around and find someone who seems really "up" on your issues, has high energy, seems honest etc. and let them do the work. You wouldn't operate on your brain or your buddies brain and without knowing how the law/courts work you are frankly at an extreme advantage in some situations.

Again, G'luck!
 

sfc crash

Human Blowtorch
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 26, 2001
1,828
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get an attorney, now, and have him make the contacts. As far as most country people being honest..YEH Right!. I'm a country folk and some of my neighbors are snakes. There's an attitude of us against them out here. I've had several run ins with the locals and cops. Some farmers think that they own the world because they pull a plow across some of it. I've got permission from my neighbor to ride on his land but another farmer who leases the land next to him is a real weiner and calls the cops if he even hears bikes. Sounds like that's what happend here. The ranchers know the local authoriteis so you guys had to be charged to appease the localls. Fight this one with everything. reckless driving is a bad rap to carry over your head especially if you end up in traffic court in the future.
 

FritoBandito

Member
Sep 18, 2001
147
0
I have more information to clarify what is going on up to this point. We rode out in the National Grasslands, which means if we fight this and win, that the states attorney could go back to the Federal level and say to them that the charge didn't stick, so they might send us to a federal court for something like Trespassing. If we take our lumps and plea to a lesser charge, it is settled and we move on. The 4 people that did get charged, me included, did talk to a Forest Service Law Enforcement agent and gave him our side of the story about 2 months ago. That gives them enough ammunition to charge us in the first place. We have already incriminated ourselves, because this guy told us that none of the trails we have are legal in the eyes of the Forest Service. I can't see us fighting this and winning against a Government agency if it escalates to that level. Nor can I afford to fight at that level. Our options are to #1 Go to court and fight the charges.
#2 Plea for careless driving, $30 fine and 6 points on our driving record.
#3 Plea for Criminal Mischief, $250 fine and 6 month deferred sentence.

I think it's a fair agreement that they are giving us options, because a couple of us just can't have charges against our driving record. Our lawyer is very knowledgeable in the laws and being a rural area, he works with all parties involved on a regular basis. So he feels he knows what the prosecutor is asking for. Maybe it is a mistake to even be putting these things out on a public forum, but we never went out to go riding that day with any intent to cause problems, do damage, or harass a group of ranchers or their cattle. Some of the riders in our group have rode this area for maybe 10 years without a problem, so I guess we must have been lucky that we were not caught sooner. I wish that the Forest Service people would have just asked us to meet with them and explained to us that if we were in the wrong area, to set us straight as to what are legal trails. The saga continues ..........................
 

Danman

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Nov 7, 2000
2,211
3
I don't have any advice other than fight it. I know it will be a hassle and costly as self employed people don't get paid time off. I personaly think the whole situation blows for you guys :| You'es was hoodwinked!
 

linusb

~SPONSOR~
Apr 20, 2002
276
0
I would think that any criminal defense attorney worth his salt would be able to get you out of that citation. It sounds like you have enough evidence to show a good faith effort that you were traversing on public lands, if you can talk to the people from the forest service and get affadavits that would be great...even better if they'd testify on your behalf. I think you'll ultimately get it dismissed, but you'll have to fight it.
 

Sawblade

Timmy Timmy Timmy!
Sep 24, 2000
1,491
0
Are there any signs or posted maps at the trial head that show/state the trails are legal? If there are signs posted saying the trails are legal, someone needs to take a few pictures of them. Here in Arkansas motorized trails are posted with a picture of a motorcycle on them. Also, you said something about someone GPSing the trails for the FS. Was this done on your ride or just an offer made to the FS? If it was done (GPS) on the ride and the trails are legal I would think that would help your cause.

Good luck!
 

Slips

Member
Jan 24, 2004
102
0
Sounds like a mess. Hope it works out. But if all they have is your word saying you did something and it is not in writing that is a weak case for the state. Otherwise it's pretty impossible to identify someone wearing a helmet and goggles if you follow me.

Hope it works out for you all.
 

NVR FNSH

~SPONSOR~
Oct 31, 2000
1,235
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Not sure if it was mentioned previously but don't you have a map/correspondence from the USFS stating that you could ride there provided you stayed on the existing trails? Do you have the name/title of the person that sent this info? In California a person cannot be charged with a crime (Penal Code 26: Criminal Capability) if: Three, Persons who committed the act or made the omission charged under an ignorance or mistake of fact, which disproves any criminal intent. Certainly, there is a similar Penal code section in the state charging the crime. With the info you have from the USFS a prosecutor will have a difficult time proving any intent.

Good luck,
Brian
 

tnrider

Sponsoring Member
Jun 8, 2003
576
0
and where is the AMA in all of this - they sure pay attention to road riders (members or not) but don't seem to do too much for those of us that ride in the dirt!
 
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