Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
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Oct 28, 2001
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Hey 2TrakR.... Based in part on your trail mapping project, I'm looking to get a GPS unit. Being a complete rookie in GPS technology, I thought I'd tap your brain and expertise to find out what you'd recommend for the Michigan dirt rider.

I first looked at a Magellan eXplorist 300 (http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=1016), but it didn't appear to allow routes to be downloaded. It has 8 MB of built-in maps, and 8 MB of memory to save 5 track log files, 500 waypoints, 2000 trackpoints, 20 routes, and is WAAS enabled. 4-level grayscale, 14 hour battery life.

After some more research, I honed in on the Garmin eTrex Legend C (http://www.garmin.com/products/etrexLegendc/). WAAS, 256 color display, 24 MB memory, USB port for downloading map data, 500 waypoints, 20 routes (reversible), and 10,000 trackpoints.

As far as specs/capabilities, I don't know if the Magellan unit is fine for my needs, and the eTrex is overkill? Or should I just buy once and get the eTrex? Or is there another brand/model you'd recommend?

Here are some more of my newbie questions:

1) I'd like to be able to download/use maps that you and/or the CCC have developed, but understand that there's not an open mapping format, so choosing the "right" brand is important for compatibility. Are all your map files in the Garmin format? I believe that the Garmin unit comes with MapSource Trip & Waypoint Manager CD, and the Americas Recreational base map. Is this all I would need to use your maps?

2) How much memory is recommended to store routes?

3) How many log files will you typically want to save on the device? Could I store most of the main trail systems?

4) How many track points per log file are sufficient?

5) Is the electronic compass feature all that important? Even if you're stopped, can't a unit without the eCompass still derive/display North based on the past x number of data points logged and your route? I carry an magnetic compass anyway, so I'm really just trying to understand why a GPS can't inherently display direction while stopped. Or is this where the extra cost of the electronic compass comes in?

6) I've read that you've attached an external re-radiating antenna for your eTrex to get more consistent coverage. The eTrex Legend C I'm looking at is WAAS capable, and does not have the ability to attach an external antenna. Does your eTrex have WAAS capability, and if not, do you think that WAAS would preclude the need for an external antenna in the woods of Michigan?

Thanks for any and all advice!
 
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YZMAN400

Member
Dec 2, 2003
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I think that 2 track has a Garmin 60c unit. He is wired into the bikes power and has the external antenna. This is the unit that I was looking at myself if I ever get some extra money to throw around.
 

2TrakR

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2002
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SmitDog said:
I first looked at a Magellan <snip>
After some more research, I honed in on the Garmin eTrex Legend C

The Magellans are nice, guys that have them are very happy (at least the newer units). The rare few that have "switched" to Garmin have been pleased as well.
Garmin are "more" popular, I would look at their line of units.

Points to consider:
Where will you be using the GPS and how?
What do you want to do with it?

If on the bike, or in your hand (ie hunting, hiking) the eTrex series is great. The 60C is nicer but more costly as well. Many other models are not as suited (still can be used for it though) for hand held use.
If you only want to use it for knowing where you are and where you've been, most any mapping unit is fine. Detailed basemaps are a key point, Garmin has viewer programs on their website so you can see the coverage each map product has (some have better detail in the woods, some lean towards cities).
If you also want the GPS to autoroute, that being the ability to generate a turn by turn set of directions from your current location to another location, then you need a GPS with mapping and auto-route functionality. Say you are at Cedar Creek parking lot and need to get to Evart's parking lot - the autoroute functionality can tell you which roads to take and tell you when/where to turn -> as you are driving <-

I never use the autoroute, I don't have the map set that has this data in it.

The Legend C is a great choice. Color screen is fantastic, worth the extra money. Your computer will need USB ports to communicate with the GPS, the older GPS units have serial ports instead of USB.
If money is a big concern, the Legend non-color is also a great entry level mapping unit. If you have wads of cash oozing from your behind (hey, what cyclist doesn't) it would be worth your while to look at the 60C and then up the ladder.

SmitDog said:
1) I'd like to be able to download/use maps that you and/or the CCC have developed, but understand that there's not an open mapping format, so choosing the "right" brand is important for compatibility. Are all your map files in the Garmin format? I believe that the Garmin unit comes with MapSource Trip & Waypoint Manager CD, and the Americas Recreational base map. Is this all I would need to use your maps?

Good questions, you've done your homework well.
We will be starting with Garmin compatible maps. Once that's done, I will try to make Magellan maps as well, so it's a safer bet choosing Garmin is this is a concern for you.
The maps we will make available have not been finalized, although I have two "products" done and am contemplating the third. If you have just the North American (or worldwide) base map all you will see is major roads/cities, such as US-10 & I-75 and then add one of the following:
First there is just trail data. The trails, routes and parking lots will show on your map screen. This one is simple and easy to make available for Garmin & I think Magellan.
Second is a modified copy of Roads and Recreation - this will have all of Garmin's maps in it, plus it will have our mapped trails added in. It will work just like Garmin's product, but include stuff (trails) that were not there. Done this one too already, but giving it away would be illegal unless you already owned a copy of Roads & Recreation. Slim chance this will become available; would only work with Garmin units.
Third is generating a complete Michigan map set which would have all city, street, road, county, water, trail, railroad, etc. information. That same map that's in the new mapbook would be converted for use in the GPS. Depending on how much work this ends up being, it may or may not happen. Legally we should be able to give this one away.

SmitDog said:
2) How much memory is recommended to store routes?

Routes, tracks and waypoints are three types of User data in the GPS. Waypoints are singular locations (the location of your house, a parking lot, where you last saw Woodsy on the Boon trail). Tracks are multiple points connected together that show a path, like a breadcrumb trail; while tracks are made up of points the points themselves are not waypoints. Routes are point to point paths with navigational inclinations; generally each point in a route is a waypoint. If you were traveling down a twisty road and turning at the next intersection:
A waypoint could be the intersection
A track would follow the twisty road and continue around the corner.
A route would have a point where you joined the twisty road and another at the intersection, the line connecting those points would be straight - it would not follow the twisty road.

Generally speaking you'll use waypoints for locations of interest. Tracks for seeing where you've been (or to follow to get somewhere). Routes for navigating to a location.

Routes have few points (say 50), tracks can have many (say 10,000).

The data we will make available will have the ORV trail show as a map item, it will not use track, waypoint or route data.
We will, however, make trails available as tracks so you can load certain trails in your GPS if you prefer not to use the map functionality. The track will be less detailed than the map as the track will not have as many points in it.

SmitDog said:
3) How many log files will you typically want to save on the device? Could I store most of the main trail systems?

If you use the maps we make available, it will be irrelevant. If you opt for tracks, generally you can store 10 tracks of 250 points (depends on the unit, this is a base line). You would be able to store ~ 1/3 of the trail system as tracks in the GPS at any given time.

What's neat about tracks is that it's laying one down as you ride. You can see on screen right away where you've been and how you got to where you are.

SmitDog said:
4) How many track points per log file are sufficient?

We're running around 2000 points for an average trail. The USFS uses higher end equipment and gathers ~20,000 points.
The more points per saved track the better as it allows you to save more detailed track information. Your active log will go to 10,000 points, but when you save it in the GPS it will reduce the points down to 250 to 500 depending on model.
Good time to mention this - tracks have "two" storage ares on the GPS. One is "active log" this is the live data collected as you are moving. It's the most detailed and can be up to 10,000 points. You can also store tracks that have up to 250 points in the saved tracks area. Usually 20 tracks can be saved, 500 points each (on the Legend C). While I can bore you more with this, let's just say it will make sense when you have the unit in your hand.

SmitDog said:
5) Is the electronic compass feature all that important?

No, only sucks batteries (hunters/hikers may disagree). When you are moving the compass in a GPS will show you north, just need to be moving for it to show you. The electronic compass in some units (Vista, 60CS, etc) differs in that it will show you north even if you are stationary.

SmitDog said:
6) I've read that you've attached an external re-radiating antenna for your eTrex to get more consistent coverage.

The antennae I used did not plug into the GPS; it has a loop of cable that you put near the GPS antennae, that loop "re-broadcasts" the satellite signal.

I've heard the new color eTrex have better antennae than the non-color eTrex units, thus better reception in the woods. My Vista would lose lock under tree cover depending on conditions, using the re-rad anteannae helped reduce the frequency of this. The 60C is an order of magnitude better than the Vista (even when used with the antennae) in regards to reception (I don't use the antennae anymore). For normal use you probably won't need the antennae to begin with; worse case being you have to stop for a second and let the GPS pick the birds back up.


RAM mounts are the hot ticket for mounting on your bike, don't cheap out with the Garmin brand stuff as they are not durable enough. Touratech if you have that ooozing money issue.
http://www.TVNav.com has good prices, I'd suggest at least using them as a comparison.
http://www.gpsinformation.net is a good starting point for GPS stuff.
http://www.cycoactive.com sells 'em and are a bunch of bikers.
Invest in rechargeable NIMH batteries, worth the investment if you will use the GPS often.

Maps:
Roads and Recreation has some of the best rural coverage in Michigan.
Topo has more rural coverage but the contour lines can add to clutter (data overload for the end User).
MetroGuide is probably the better option for new map purchase as it has more rural stuff than City Select & Roads and Recreation is not being sold anymore.
City Select is more city oriented than MetroGuide.

When guys bring their GPS to me at signup for the Dual Sport rides, I load tracks of the courses plus waypoints for reset locations. This gives them a detailed course to follow on the GPS screen.
 

morgan

Member
Nov 30, 2001
173
1
Hey 2TrakR.... Based in part on your trail mapping project, I'm looking to get a GPS unit.

I think there is some mathematical formula to explain this. The more time spent with Jeramey is inversely proportional to the amount of money in your bank account---squared.

Jeramey has that effect on a lot of us. ;) M.
 

bbarel

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
Apr 13, 2003
830
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I e-bayed my Magellan Sportrac color after seeing SmitDogs Garmin Etrex Legend Color. The Etrex color screen is way better than the Sportrak color in the sunlight.
 
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Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 28, 2001
4,704
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Thanks for all the great info and links guys. I've been reading like an egghead, and just about ready to buy the eTrex Legend C. I like the compact size, color screen, and long battery life.

Now it's down to the maps....

I plan on using the GPS both in the car for long trips, and out trail riding to help explore different trail systems, record routes, and for downloading / using CCC trail maps.

1) The Legend comes standard with the Americas Recreational. Will this be fine for car trips, or will I also need the City Select CD? For some reason the Metro Guide is not listed as being compatible with the eTrex Legend C - just the eTrex Legend. :think:

2) What's the recommendation for getting the best detailed rural coverage for trails? Any idea why Roads and Recreation is no longer available? Any sources for buying a used copy in order to use your modified copy? Garmin does not list R&R as being compatible/recommended for the eTrex Legend C, so this may not work anyway. (?) Any 3rd party mapping vendors out there to fill the gap for rural coverage?

Thanks!
 

bbarel

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
Apr 13, 2003
830
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That looks like a very nice unit. It sounds like Garmin Americs Recreational just gives you 'base maps. For my Magellan anyways, the base-maps show main hwys and xwys, and some other main roads here and there. If you want to use it to help you navigate side/dirt roads to a trail-head for example, you will need to load 'City Select' with detailed city/street maps. With the detailed maps mine does a decent job with side/dirt roads, although you still do not get EVERY road in the woods, but it is fairly good. Plan on springing for the 'City Select' maps CD if this is what you want, or obtaining some other 3rd party street maps.
 

2TrakR

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2002
794
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Smit Dog said:
I plan on using the GPS both in the car for long trips, and out trail riding

Then you should consider maps that can autoroute on the GPS for use in the Car. City Select will do that for you, but the rural coverage is sorely lacking. For example, there are several fire roads (county seasonal roads) around the Gladwin trail that are not represented on these maps. For general car navigation that's not an issue.
The MetroGuide will work in the Legend C, however the routing function will not work. You can still create routes in your computer and d/l them to the GPS, you just can't use only the GPS (say while in the car) to generate a route.

For auto-routing, I'd say the City Select North America is the best available option. I'd **** Roads and Recreation (or offer to store a friends backup copy) for general dirt bike duties.
You can always purchase the maps (like CS) after purchasing the GPS.


Smit Dog said:
1) The Legend comes standard with the Americas Recreational. Will this be fine for car trips, or will I also need the City Select CD?
It only has major highways and so will depend on your car trips. I load up MetroGuide when I'm road traveling out of state (it doesn't auto-route in my GPS, so I don't use that function).


Smit Dog said:
2) What's the recommendation for getting the best detailed rural coverage for trails? Any idea why Roads and Recreation is no longer available? Garmin does not list R&R as being compatible/recommended for the eTrex Legend C, so this may not work anyway. (?) Any 3rd party mapping vendors out there to fill the gap for rural coverage?
R&R on **** or some other source is the best bet for getting a copy. Topo would have the best, most current, rural coverage and is available new. It does have more off-road detail than R&R, it's overkill with the contour lines for my personal taste. I suggest checking Garmin's Map Viewer page to see if that's the issue for you.
All of Garmin's maps will work in all of their mapping receivers, as far as I know & have tried, just that some features (routing) do not work with all products.
Haven't seen any 3rd party map vendors providing this type of data, although it seems like a decent market.
 

tx246

~SPONSOR~
May 8, 2001
1,306
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i myself am a garmin user. i have the map76 and use it in conjunction with the mapsource topos. it has sufficient memory, a great resolution screen, and easy to manipulate buttons. the legends buttons and screen are really small. the topo series has great detail in an offroad environment. you can choose the level of detail drawn by a simple change in the map setup on the gps unit. i have used this unit on street bike trips, offroad in moab, and backcountry trips in wyoming. the topo wont let you autoroute but all the roads and trails are there. most of the minor streets in a urban setting arent labled but lots of county roads and forest trails are. you cant use your gps as a compass because it is always sampling with error known as SA (selective availability).

for the most part, if a trail is on a usgs quad, it shows up pretty darn accurately on the topo software.

this unit has waas capability but it is a known battery user and it doesnt really add to the accuracy. this unit has 16mg which covers a lot of ground. the screen is nice and big with high resolution. it is black and white though. retail on this unit has come way down. original price was in the 340 range and ive seen it in the 270 range. at geocache.com there is a forum where people are always selling units. seems lots of those folks always want the latest and greatest which results in some pretty killer deals.

tracks are the key to marking a trail and there are other programs which let you overlay your track to different maps. i can lay routes and tracks onto sat photo/usgs maps using freeware from doug cox and his USAPhotomaps program. check it out. this lets you see your riding areas in a detail hard to beat. the program links to the microsoft terrafirma site. best of all it is a small program to download and it is free.

my unit has been really durable. i use it sailing, kayaking, off road, street, mountain biking, and backcountry hiking. ive had my unit for 3yrs. whatever unit you decide, make sure you dont settle. i started out with a basic $100 unit and three units later i bought the one i wanted in the first place.

the base map in this unit is so so. it is the mapping software that makes any unit rock.

the old off road stand by is the garmin gpsV. recently, garmin has had some killer promos on this unit. the 76 screen is bigger and the V has an external antanne where the 76 is internal.
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
10
I have had a Garmin E-Map unit for 4 years now and it works great. I like it because it has a bigger display than most. I also have the R&R as well as the Topo software. I would say that the Topo SW suits my needs a little better.

Funny thing, US 131 north ends at Reed City in Garmin's SW :laugh: (that's about 30 years behind, right?) Hence, I would not count on Gamin's mapping to be too current for dual sporting or snowmobiling.

I don't use my GPS much but I always take it along when hunting............mushrooms, brown four-legged critters, things-with-wings, etc. It's great 'cause you are never lost and it saves a ton of walking vs. a compass. I don't take it riding very often and I never need to take it fishing 'cause you are never lost on a troutstream. I have taken it to Alaska on three occasions and never even turned it on. However, there is some peace of mind that comes with knowing that you are never lost.
 

FLEM

Member
Sep 22, 2004
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I've got a RINO 120 it got all the features of the e-trex (legend?) it has8 meg memory + a radio. I use it for grouse hunting and riding. seems to work better than the e-trex I had, as it has an external antenna. its so-so on batteries it uses three AA's good for about 12-16hrs, wo'nt quite get me through a hunting weekend on one set of batt. I want to rig up a power cord for the KTM
 

MWEISSEN

Whaasssup?
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Dec 6, 1999
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If you're using a GPS for directions back to your vehicle, I have some advice - make sure your batteries are in good shape! About 4 years ago I used my Garmin III+ to go partridge hunting in a heavily wooded, unfamiliar area. I marked where the truck was parked and confidentally headed out, nor really paying much attention to features because, darn it, I have my Garmin! About 30 minutes out, the "low battery" warning came up. With the III+, that means you don't have much time! I really booked quickly trying to make ti back to the truck. I ran out without it in sight, but kept going in the last direction I saw. I made it back, but learned a lesson!
 

Smit-Dog

Mi. Trail Riders
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Oct 28, 2001
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OK... I've got the Legend C... bought it at Gander Mountain for $289. Pretty cool so far... used it on a short trip down to Ohio

- Like everyone mentioned, the base map that's installed is only a teaser. Only shows major roads and highways. The cool thing was that I could pop up a list of the nearest exits, pick one, and it would show me every gas station, hotel, and restaurant at that exit.

- I lost signal a couple of times while in the car. When I noticed the lost signal, both times the unit was between my legs, on the seat, and had slid back a little. Does this unit require a pretty clear line-of-sight to keep a steady signal? Am I going to be able to ride with it in my gear pack, upside down, jostling around, and still keep a steady signal for recording tracks? Or is a RAM mount the only way to do this successfully?

- I'm getting the City Select for sure. Get within 10-15 miles of my house, and the recording looks like little ant tracks wandering aimlessly in circles!

- I'd get the Topo for the detailed trails/back roads if you can remove all or most of the contour lines. Is this definitely possible?

- If not Topo, I'll see if I can score a copy of R&R on that auction site.

- WAAS was turned off by default, so I turned it on. Is it absolutely necessary for accuracy? Or just a battery drain like TX mentioned?

- Jeramey: If you're looking for a beta tester of your maps, let me know! I'll sign any non-disclosure form you want... ;)

tx246 said:
... i can lay routes and tracks onto sat photo/usgs maps using freeware from doug cox and his USAPhotomaps program. check it out. this lets you see your riding areas in a detail hard to beat. the program links to the microsoft terrafirma site. best of all it is a small program to download and it is free.
Thanks for the tip on the TerraServer integration! Can it track/overlay detailed sat images? I'd be very impressed...

.
 

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FLEM

Member
Sep 22, 2004
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whats the terraserver intergration? I love that site, got a 24X36 print I mosiacced of the new house and property in Davisburg.
 

2TrakR

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2002
794
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New GPS Nut said:
When I noticed the lost signal, both times the unit was between my legs, on the seat, and had slid back a little.

Oooh, the old "crotch proximity error". I've heard of guys who have that sort of problem, whenever the opposite sex would get near that area they seemed to lose track of everything else.

New GPS Nut said:
Does this unit require a pretty clear line-of-sight to keep a steady signal? Am I going to be able to ride with it in my gear pack, upside down, jostling around, and still keep a steady signal for recording tracks? Or is a RAM mount the only way to do this successfully?
Yes, No, Yes. Line of sight is best, more things in the way, more chance for loss of signal. RAM Mount is definitely the way to go for use on the bike, much more useful in that position as well.
New GPS Nut said:
- I'd get the Topo for the detailed trails/back roads if you can remove all or most of the contour lines. Is this definitely possible?

Don't know. I've only seen the ability to turn the contours off on a GPS V and couldn't locate a similar feature on a Legend.

New GPS Nut said:
- WAAS was turned off by default, so I turned it on. Is it absolutely necessary for accuracy? Or just a battery drain like TX mentioned?

No, WAAS is not absolutely necessary. Not sure on the additional battery drain with this newer model, it was pretty significant (reduce life by several hours) on my Vista.
 

ellandoh

dismount art student
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Mi. Trail Riders
Aug 29, 2004
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Smit-Dog, how are you liking the etrex legend c??? what is your favorite software, do you wish you had splurged for any more features or is that unit plenty??

i got a couple best buy bucks for christmas ;)
 

SNDMN2

Member
Jul 18, 2003
343
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I have only used one gps. I have two Rino 120s. One for me and one for my boy. Great when your hunting as they will broadcast each others position. Even if one of you is lost the other will be able to find you. I think the trick with any GPS is takeing the time to master its use. While I have not masterd total use yet I'm getting better. We tracked a deer this past season till after 9 at night. We marked the last spot of blood as a waypoint and walked back out to camp useing the gps as our guide back.This was thick cedar swamp stuff. Roughly a mile away. We were able to go to the marked waypoint the following day and get back on the blood trail. I have a mount from Cycoactive and will be hooking it up to a battery source on my drz for the UP TrailSafarie later in the summer. You can find these on **** for about $150-$160 or so.
 
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