Hey all you dog people...

[Enduro_Nut]

GO SPEEDRACER!!! This topic is has become borderline rediculious. I've done breed rescue for 20+ years and have been bitten 7 times - none of which were breeds that supposidly bite! During the 80's geuss what breed bit the most - cocker spaniels. That's not to say I don't like cockers - look how many have been reaised without any problems.

The bottom line is finding a breed that fits within your household and spending a measly $75 for training.

 

[gospeedracer]

Interesting article. Just one view point.
http://dogs.about.com/library/weekly/aa100102a.htm

 

[Smit-Dog]

GSR - Just like I wouldn't let my kids ride around without a helmet, I wouldn't bring a stray pit bull into the house with them. Sure, nothing could happen in either case, but I'd rather gamble in the stock market than with my kids well-being.

It's like the classic anecdotal argument. "When I was a kid, we didn't wear helmets, or seat belts, and we never got hurt."

 

[Jon K.]

Aimee;

I agree fully with most of that article, with the obvious exception that breeds like Cockers and Toy Poddles can't do life-threatening injuries and should not be compared to Pits and Rottweilers.

"Bad dogs are not born, there is no genetic mutation present in certain dog breeds that make them turn against their owner or reach out and bite their latest victim. Bad dogs are created, usually by the people who raise them, less often by unscrupulous breeders who deliberately or unknowingly breed unsound temperaments to another unstable temperament. Every dog is a product of his environment. Every puppy born is born innocent of future charges levied against him by the public."

The above excerpt is what I disagree with.

Hundreds of years of breeding CANNOT BE UNDONE by a proper upbringing.

And I repeat; there is something about a child that brings out the instinct.

I do agree that the owner is mostly responsible for the behavior of the dog. But not 100%.

A leopard cannot change his spots. Neither can a Pit Bull.

I have already pushed too far on this issue, but I have first-hand experience with a child scarred for life by a dog :whiner: , and the nerves are very close to the surface for me.

 

[zio]

I've been reading a lot about the breed over the last few days. And I am convinced that the amount of attacks by American Pit Bulls is grossly inflated due to the large percentage of "social waste" that own them. I read the same recommendation for ownership of American Pit Bulls as with most other breeds- "good training and proper care are essential". The gist of it is they're no more instinctively agressive than any other dog. I probably wouldn't choose one if picking out a dog, I'd more likely go with a Lab or Boxer just because of the fear and social phobia the Pit Bulls instill.

I really appreciate everyone's genuine concern, but we decided to keep the dog at least for the time being. I wish you could see the impact she's made on all of us. Even though I may have stated that I'm not a dog person, I have had three dogs in my lifetime. All German Shepherds. One was rowdy & disobedient, one was an average pet, and the third was insanely loyal & loving. That last one was the perfect dog, I thought. This new puppy already takes the podium for best dog. Whoever owned her before us must have been a great pet owner. Why we haven't been able to find the owner is baffling.

Unfortunately, this all seems to be moot now. This weekend, "Putty" ran away. Or she was stolen. We have a wrought iron fence in the front yard that her wide head could not have fit through. We left her alone during the afternoon for a few hours, came back & she was gone. :( My heart is broken. I love this puppy. I didn't think it would matter this much to me, but it does. It's just a stupid dog, right?

We've been to the pound & animal shelter, placed "lost dog" ads & posters, scoured the neighborhood, and even followed up on one "Found" ad that absolutely HAD to be her. What are the odds that there are two female, brindle Pit Bull puppies lost in our area of town on the same weekend? When we left those people's home without our dog, zia broke down & cried.

I feel dumb for getting all sappy, and usually don't air my sad laundry on DRN, but this one got me all worked up. If anyone is so inclined, feel free to pray that we find her. I want my puppy back :(

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by zio
I
I feel dumb for getting all sappy, and usually don't air my sad laundry on DRN, but this one got me all worked up. If anyone is so inclined, feel free to pray that we find her. I want my puppy back :(

I know how you feel. In March we brought a 4 month old puppy home from the pound. I brought it home on Thursday, on Friday I flew out and my wife had to deal with the puppy. On Saturday it started showing signs of parvo and it had to be put down on Sunday evening.

I was depressed for months over that and still have not fully gotten over it and we did not have the dog too long. I know how you feel, at least you have hope that you may find your puppy again.

Ivan

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by Jon K.
Hundreds of years of breeding CANNOT BE UNDONE by a proper upbringing.

I do agree with that to an extent.

Our Doberman that turned on us we got after it was a year old and when it was 5 it started to do weird things and turn on us. It never bit us in the neck but it would growl at us while listening to us reprimand it for snapping.

After putting it down we found out that the Doby had some bones in its head that grew into its brain and caused some problems. This is something I was told is common among the intra-breeding dogs like Dobermans.

However, in this case we are talking about a 3 month old puppy that has the opportunity to be raised by a responsible person who will recognize personality changes before it comes a problem. I also think issues like I had and other personality issues with dogs due to breeding or inherited problems are the exception and can happen with any dog.

I still think pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other dog. It is the owner, the caring and the socialization that makes the most difference.

Ivan

 

[Smit-Dog]

Just like the nature vs. nurture debate, it's not black and white. I believe that certain dogs, and people for that matter, are pre-wired to a certain disposition. That pre-disposition can be attributed to a combination of breed/race, heredity/genes, and upbringing/environment. You can't exclude any of the three influences, and I don't believe that any one is the sole indicator or determining factor.

- Different breeds tend to have certain attributes and characteristics.

- Different races of people tend to have certain attributes and characteristics.

A dog that's pre-wired to be naturally aggressive/protective can be raised and trained to focus and control their disposition. But I don't believe that any amount of nurturing and environment can completely nullify the other 2 influences.

I'm sure Dalhmer's parents were typical white, suburban, middle-class folk.

I'm sure Roy Horn realized his tiger was just trying to help when it lunged at his neck and dragged him off stage.

And I'm sure the grizzly who mauled the couple in Alaska was just damn hungry, and really didn't care that the humans were really his friends.

 

[zio]

I don't think all of the Bull terriers were bred for fighting. Do a search on "American Pit Bull terriers", and you'll find lots of interesting info on the history of the breed, and all the different lines. Quite intersting stuff.

With the dispostion of this particular dog, I was convinced that she was not bred for fighting, nor were her parents. She was a lap dog. She was borderline comatose. She was people. She had to be touching you at all times. If I got up off the couch & came back again a minute later, she had to kiss me & whine her little "hi missed you so much". Unlike any other puppy, she hardly used her teeth at all. Mostly, she licked. My son did give her a teddy bear to chew on, and that was the only toy she ever put in her mouth.

Okay, I'm done with this for a while, it's making me sad.

 

[Jon K.]

Zio; regardless of my attitude toward Pits; I am sorry for your loss. :whiner:

 

[zio]

thanks, Jon. Hey, who'd win in a fight, a sheep or a pig?

 

[OnAnySunday]

Seems like sometimes a dog will grow out of a bitting habbit.
Our schipperke was sorta like that when he was younger.
Whomever was holding him at the time was his person to guard over.
Anyone else who got near, got bit. It was really weird!
He doesnt do that anymore, and we have no idea why. :confused:

He also used to curl up on the couch by my feet when id fall asleep there watching t.v..
Trouble was he had this hair trigger reaction thing going on.
If you touched him whilst he was sleeping, it was like waking up TAZ from looney toones! All teeth and claws!
So if i wiggled my feet in my sleep.......well you get the idea. :eek:
Had to start wearing my boots while sleeping for awhile. :laugh:

 

[mdkuder]

Be wary as these dogs are extemely strong, no matter how well you train it if it latches on good luck on getting free! I have a doberman and getting home owners insurance was a problem. She is only two years old and is really great with us (I have a 13 yr. old daughter and 8 yr. old boy) but lately she has shown signs of aggression with other animals, which makes me leary of strangers being around her. Good Luck

 

[Enduro_Nut]

Sorry to here that - keep up the faith that she'll be found!!

 

[Jon K.]

OK; I am gonna go for it, but this has got to be a trick question.

A pig is a fearsome animal and would cut a sheep to pieces in about 3 seconds.

 

[XRpredator]

Originally posted by Jon K.
A pig is a fearsome animal and would cut a sheep to pieces in about 3 seconds.

That they are, my good man. Have you ever heard the saying "Went to **** and the hogs ate him."? I ain't too worried about killer sheep . . .

 

[zio]

The answer is: Neither. Pigs are lovers, not fighters. And sheep are too dumb.

 

[gxdragon]

One of my friends had a pit bull it was one of the friendliest dogs I've met. He would come into the bar and let it off the leash. The dog would run from one person to the next looking to be pet. never even barked at anybody.

My sister has two rottweilers they are the biggest babies. The only thing you have to worry about them knocking you over as they push each other out of the way to be pet first. When she first moved into her house her neighbors where concerned but once they got to know her and the dogs there wasn't a problem.

There are some breeds that are just nasty but I don't believe that rotts & pit are among them. A lot of it has to do with the owners how they treat them and raise them. Some people want the dog to be nasty and just make them mean. You'd be mean too if someone beat you, prodded you and encouraged you to attack things. These dogs are good fighters people know that and take advantage of it.

A well trained dog that's given a lot of love and attention can be a great companion/family member for many years.

 

[gospeedracer]

Natty will appreciate this! :)

Brockoli Ass Biter III

 

[Enduro_Nut]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: !!

 

[Philip]

Man what a read! Zio it's up to you and your family with the dog. I have had Chows, Rotwielers, Pits, Labs, Beagles, Terriers, etc. and all where sweethearts. I raised them to be family dogs and always taught the family to show dominance at any sign of aggresion. We never had a problem. In fact the two dogs with the worst rap were the pit and the chows and they turned out to be the most loving and loyal to Josh. We now have a schnauzer wich some of you met at DW. She is by far the most aggresive dog I have ever owned. She will snap at people if they aggrevate her. Josh is really good with her because both the dog and the child are taught to respect each other. I think I am with speedy on this issue. ;)

 

[GETMETOCA]

Brock-oli Ass Biter III!!!!! What a cool dog!!

 

[gospeedracer]

Apparently Brock isn't aware he's suppose to be a vicious child eating machine. :confused:

 

[Thump]

Originally posted by Jon K.
Oh, and 10% of fatal dog attacks involve SLEEPING INFANTS!

You have added a little creative writing to the statistic.... Here is a snip from the CDC studies...
"The number of victims. Dogs bite nearly 2% of the U.S. population -- more than 4.7 million people annually. (Sacks JJ, Kresnow M, Houston B. Dog bites: how big a problem? Injury Prev 1996;2:52-4.) Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. Dog bites send nearly 334,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (914 per day). (National Center for Health StatisticsNational Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey for 1992-1994.) Bites to children represent more than 50 percent of the total number cases. 26% of child-victims -- compared with 12% of the adults -- require medical care. (Ibid.) Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.) An American has a one in 50 chance of being bitten by a dog each year. (CDC.)
* The number of fatalities. In the U.S. from 1979 to 1996, 304 people in the U.S died from dog attacks, including 30 in California.The average number of deaths per year was 17. Most of the deceased were children."

Nowhere did it say the kids were sleeping, that is an embelishment, if not on your part than on the part of the source you got your information from.

But this is my favorite snip from the same source...
There is an 8 out of 10 chance that a biting dog is male. (Humane Society of the United States.) 

Although pit bull mixes and Rottweillers are most likely to kill and seriously maim, fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds. 

The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictibility is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)
In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that:

* Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner most often is responsible -- not the breed, and not the dog. 
* An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above). 
* Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be likely to bite. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack. 

I have 5 dogs, had 6 and 4 of them are on the most likely to bite list.... I know for sure that it is not the breed, it is how they are raised, just like humans. To blame the breed it laziness and prejudism.

Do you know what the statistics for violent crime are? Most are committed by males of a certain ethnic background... does that mean that a white woman can't or won't commit such a crime? Hell no. Most serial killers are white males... what does that mean? nadda. It means that being predjudice againt an animals "race" is acceptable but not a humans. :|

 

[Jon K.]

Thump; I thought I was done with this, as I admit (again) that I have pushed to far, but I must respond to your charges of "creative writing". This is cut from a CDC article. I ain't makin' it up.

And deeply resent your implication of such. The only thing I added was the " :whiner: "

"1: Pediatrics. 1996 Jun;97(6 Pt 1):891-5. Related Articles, Links
Fatal dog attacks, 1989-1994.
Sacks JJ, Lockwood R, Hornreich J, Sattin RW.
Division of Unintentional Injury Prevention, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA 30341, USA.
OBJECTIVES. To update data on fatal dog bites and see if past trends have continued. DESIGN. To merge data from vital records, the Humane Society of the United States, and searches of electronic news files. SETTING: United States. SUBJECTS. U.S. residents dying in the U.S. from 1989 through 1994 from dog bites. RESULTS. We identified 109 dog bite-related fatalities, of which 57% were less than 10 years of age. The death rate for neonates was two orders of magnitude higher than for adults and the rate for children one order of magnitude higher. Of classifiable deaths, 22% involved an unrestrained dog off the owner's property, 18% involved a restrained dog on the owner's property, and 59% involved an unrestrained dog on the owner's property. Eleven attacks involved a sleeping infant; (emphasis mine) 19 dogs involved in fatal attacks had a prior history of aggression; and 19 of 20 classifiable deaths involved an unneutered dog. Pit bulls, the most commonly reported breed, were involved in 24 deaths; the next most commonly reported breeds were rottweilers (16) and German shepherds (10). involved a restrained dog on the owner's property, and 59% involved an unrestrained dog on the owner's property. "

There is a bunch of other stuff, but those are the numbers that I find myself defending.

Here is the link;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8657532&dopt=Abstract

This is not the article that I had found previously, that one was from the American Pediatric people. Of course I can't find it now, but 11 out of 109 is about the same numbers that I recall.

I firmly stand by everything I have posted.

I repeat; the nerves are very close to the surface on this issue, as I have first-hand experience. And expect to be able to voice said experience and opinion without being accused of "doctoring" some figures.