Is Suspension Revalving Worth the Money???

[MikeT]

I have been planning to have my suspension revalved and resprung for my weight and riding level. I have never had this done before and it is a lot of money to spend.

My question to all of you is.... If you have had your suspension done by anybody, was it what you expected? Did you notice a BIG difference or none at all? Did you think it was worth the HARD EARNED money you spent? Give me your HONEST opinion.

Thank you

 

[shockdoc]

You will prob get just as many Yes's as No's with that question. You can be sure it's worth the money if you get the right builder to do the work. Pick someone that does it for a living, has a good rep. (Ask other riders around you) and is close enough to you for good service after the sale should you need it. All work guarenteed to satisfaction also a must. Suspension shops are popping up on every corner so be careful.


doc

 

[Fred T]

IMHO

Having great suspension custom tuned for you will be the biggest factor in how well you ride. A fast motor is secondary to having a bike you can take through the rough stuff fast. Until you can do that a fast motor is ineffective.

A revalve inspires confidence -which is not instantly noticable unless you have 2 bikes side by side to compare. You may notice little nasties that disappear from when you rode your bike before and the bike may keep you from those situations that pucker your butt cheeks. :scream:

 

[MikeS]

Remember 90% rider 10% bike or 95% rider 5% bike to others.

Suspension work does help. I have a bike that has suspension work done and it feels great for me and has made me faster. Great... I am a Senior B rider and finish mid to upper pack in offroad races. Not fast but having fun. I recently rode a KTM 01 520 that had a P/A suspension. Man the bike felt awesome and felt faster than ever. An old friend joined up riding with me. He stopped racing years ago (10). He was a AA East Coast guy. He was sporting a "90" KTM 250 Enduro model Dead Stock. It was literally pulled out of hibernation since his last race. To end this story he Kicked by butt for atleast an hour trail riding at race pace. I was only able to keep up do to I was in better shape toward the end of the day.

So I am still slow :( ....Again IMHO 90%/10% :D

 

[MX823]

I asked myself and and others the same question you just did. Is it worth it and what can I expect? Well I did get mine done this past winter, and I am truly satisfied, I can say I notice a difference it cleaned up the harshness on the small and medium stuff, but still remains firm on the bigger landings. Sand whoops , holes and coming up short have proved the suspensions worth.

If you are going to choose a shop, choose one that knows the terrain, answers your questions and explains what they can do for you.

If you are looking for an immediate fix get the correct springs, ride the bike, and see how it helps.

PM me I would be more than happy to tell you what Rob at GP did for me.

 

[rollingp]

Having your suspension valved is worth the money.
Keep this in mind.
Most suspension tuners want your weight and your riding ability and they want to know what kind of riding you do. (mx, Harescrambles etc.)
This gives them a baseline to work with and for the most part is some what
effective.. If your bike is doing something such as packing over high speed bumps or bottoming off flat landings you need to try to convey that info to the suspension tuner.
If you can target what you feel is wrong and in need of fixing you will come away with a set up that is more close to what you are trying to achieve.
There can be two riders making the same lap times around a given track.
The two riders are taking turns using the same bike.
Both weigh about the same. One is picking all the smooth lines and landing
off jumps etc with grace. The next rider is picking all the wrong lines and comming up short on the jumps looking like he is using brute strength
to control the bike.
These two riders are going to be complaining about different things
since they have different riding styles .
They both weigh the same and are making almost the same lap times so the old method of base line valving is really not accurate.
Most honest suspension tuners that really know their stuff can valve in
your forks and shock by targeting the problem and most will tell you those expensive little pistons are a waste of your hard earned money.
You can achieve what you are looking for by an inexpensive
shim shuffle, varying fork oil heights and weight, and setting your pre load.
This applies to the shock also. There isnt a part in either end of your machine
that warrants spending $500.00 on up for valving.
Fork and shock springs can be around $200.00 but for most riders they dont need to be changed. I hear from guys all the time about how they were
upset about sending their suspension off to California spending the big bucks
and only feeling a marginal improvement. I have been there many times in the past myself.
Some of the best suspension guys are the ones who actually race themselves. The guy that revalves mine worked for KTM and several pro teams and still works with some privateer racers. He mainly does suspension
work. $75.00 for the shock $125.00 for the forks. He will put in the
gimmick valves and pistons if a guy wants it.
Just be carefull. Now days money is in short supply and hard to get.
GOOD LUCK

 

[Lorin]

I shared your concern when I was debating getting my forks done last year. I had already sprung the bike for my weight and it made a substantial difference alone. On many newer bikes, this may be all that is required (assumming your bike is valved for what you ride, ie-exc, plush, mxc-firmer). Obviously, if you are riding an mx bike in the woods, you may be getting beat up a little. As to changing the springs, that should be done FIRST thing if you arent very close to the target range of the bikes stock springs. That alone made a huge difference in my bike, as well as getting the shock \ sag set up correctly. These two things should get most of us feeling better and more confident with our suspension. Moving on to the valving, I sent my forks off to MX-tech and had the full deal done (piston, mid-valve, stack) and was extremely anxious to see the difference it would make. To be blunt, it did make a difference. Enough so that my riding style changed considerably. Although this was frustrating at first (getting used to), it has paid off considerably since. I really noticed the plushness of the bike when the going gets tight and\or rocky. A week long trip to Colorado sold me on my suspension. Riding over 2-3 foot rocks for a large part of 500 miles will make you either hate or love riding that area. Whoever says that Colorado is beautiful country probably never rode it! Even so, I hope to go back again this year and do some more scenic riding (hehehehee). My fear of rocks has diminished greatly since my forks were re-valved and my trip to Colorado. When I do ride moto's I have quite a bit of adjustability to make my bike work pretty good for jumps, etc. For my riding, it did make a difference and I am happy to have done it.

 

[nikki]

For me.... YES!!!

But the biggest reason for me is that I'm only 125 lbs. and a stock 125 is set up for about 165 lbs. I raced twice on my YZ before having my suspension done - and I laid the bike over in a right handed corner BOTH races because my front tire would not stick in a rut like I wanted it to. I just wan't getting enough weight to the ground. I LOVE my suspension now... soft enough for me to put and keep the bike where I want it, but firm enough to try bigger jumps and very forgiving if I don't land something perfect. And it tracks pretty damn good through whoops, too! I feel VERY comfortable on my bike because of the suspension (plus I think it's a confidence thing, too). Oh and 40+ races later... I have only laid it over once in a corner (but it was kinda muddy). :confused:

But I agree with everyone else - go with someone who has a reputation for good work (not the cheapest guy on the block), make sure they will back-up their work if things aren't quite right the first time, and that they will be there to answer any questions that you might have.

 

[Harry Reed]

I rarely post here, but feel that this deserves a reply.
someone said in their post that you do not need to replace the piston. That is simply not the case.
Over the past decade the motorcycle shock development on the production jap bike has been very stagnant. The good suspension tuners have not ! We have been working on piston design very hard. The stacks that we run today are the result of hard work and lots of thought. The typical jap bike flows to much fluid, so to cure this they add sealing shims. You should see the amount of shims in some of these dampers, they just are not needed with the proper piston design.

When you get your suspension worked on, you most likley will not pick up three seconds per lap, but you should feel less tired at the end of the day. You will find yourself looking ahead of you instead of looking at something you are about to hit and wonder if it will knock the bars out of your hand, or kick you over the front. That will allow you to pick better lines.

After a few rides then you will get faster.

So getting your suspension worked on by a professional is worth the money. It is not cheap, it shouldn't be, because it is not easy to do right. If you are going to get your cylinder ported and it cost 250.00, then some other guy says " I can do it for 75.00" Take my word, there is something wrong there.

 

[John Curea]

Harry
Very interesting post.....

I agree, except with the respect to modern jap pistons flowing "too much" fluid.

Port size has much more to do with the velocity of the fluid than the volume. As the beloved Mr.Bernoulli figured out ,many moons ago....back in the 1700s I believe.....

Take Care, John

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Harry Reed
If you are going to get your cylinder ported and it cost 250.00, then some other guy says " I can do it for 75.00" Take my word, there is something wrong there.

I sort of agree here but if you do your homework you may find the best of both worlds.

A good suspension guy that understands your needs and can deliver is priceless.

 

[marcusgunby]

Harry one comment from me is that the reason most suspension has so many shims is because they are supercross derived-on std pistons in a cr i can run way less shims and still not have bottoming problems for expert riders in the 170lb range.So far i have found its very hard to get the low speed control a low flow piston has with a std piston but it can still be very good-is that extra low speed control worth the extra is what each owner will have to decide.

 

[Harry Reed]

Mr. Curea,

Why yes I have heard of MR.Bernoulli, I have also read the dissenting opinions to this theory. Maybe you should read up on these.
Any time you would care to talk about piston design, I would be more than happy to.
Besides, I did not say every, Just typically.


Thank you, Harry

 

[whyzee]

Bernoulli’s Little Principle

The principle, however, only applies to systems that do not produce a net force. ie., not a moving piston
;)

 

[John Curea]

Harry
(gotcha)!!

I figured that would "jag" your attention, knowing a bit about your backround;)

The term "low flow" and "high flow" really get missued in my opinion when we talk about piston port design. Especially in respect to a cartridge fork. The terms insinuate that there is actually a difference in volume flow, which is actually the same, the volume of fluid equals the total area of the piston rod that has entered the cartridge (minus the "leak" at the top of the cartridge and the amount of fluid flowing through the bypass).

And also, IMHO, the reason the jap bikes run alot of "sealing shims"or "face shims" is that they fail to take advantage of the active valving. Most active valving is set up like a check plate design. This goes for WP also......

Active valving (midspeed damping) can be valved to provide adequate bottoming resistence, and we can valve the base valve for a more plush ride.

When the active is valved too light, the base valve is usually over dampened to provide adequate bottoming resistence. Which ends up being too stiff on the highspeed hits.

When we start figuring in the variables to "tuning" the active valving (float, stack design) to figure what shaft speed we want the active valving to start "working" , and make all of this work with the passive valving in a positive manner it is quite the challenge.

Of course to simplify matters we can toss out the mid valve compression stack and install a check plate like a RT build. But I beleive that we are trading performance for simplicity.....

If you want to make things more challenging, I have an idea for a "variable displacement piston rod" .......but thats another topic:cool:

Take Care, John

 

[Blade]

RT doesn`t always suggest removing the mid-valve , it depends on the application. It seems some on here do not fully research their comments and no I do not use RT in my bike.

 

[John Curea]

Blade

Ok pal, I am ready to eat crow.....but you must first present the application.

Sorry, but late model KTMs dont count. RT doesnt recommend removing the midvalve shim stack on these models, because the stock midvalve compression shim stack build which is 24.1 x 4 face shims at 1.5 mm float doesnt really doesnt do anything in terms of damping, this set up is pretty much equal to a check plate.

Take Care, John

 

[Blade]

John,

I don`t care if you eat crow or not. I have seen you bad mouth RT on several boards and that is very unprofessional. Do you like it when someone talks that way about MX-Tech on one of the other suspension boards?


The application? I think you can do your own research . I didn`t know how RT set up the KTM fork. I was talking about a KYB fork but for you to say the KTM "doesn`t count" just proves my point. Anything can be made to sound true if you put enough restrictions on it.

 

[moto242]

blade-
i've never seen mx-tech talked about that way-but yet its not only john than points out that RT somwhat goes for the simplicity route-and he is saying that the stock WP midvalve is not really doing much of anything-therefore the same as removing one that does

 

[John Curea]

Mr. Blade

My apologies for getting on your bad side.......

All I was trying to do was have you substaniate your claim, you said RT doesnt advise removing the midvalve on all aplications. I am very curious what application you are talking about......the only one that I know is the KTM, which I stated is set up so soft that it doesnt warrant removal with the RT build mentallity.

You have to understand that RT has designed a suspension package that the average mechanic with an average set of tools can accomplish. In this respect they have been successful, and for the most part have produced a package that is better than the stock suspension.

They had to make it simple enough for the average mechanic to perform and still have the results be better than a stock set up. Even the mechanics of the midvalve build up are more complicated (when we take into consideration float and stack design) than the base assembly procedure. By removing this stack and installing a check plate we have greatly simplified the process of building and tuning the forks.

IMHO this comes at a cost of performance. When we remove the midvalve we pile all of the damping requirements on the base valve.

Now , onto your accusation of me bad mouthing RT......
The only thing I have ever mention is that removing the midvalve is "back dating your forks 10 years" (which in reality is exactly what is happening). This is the way forks were built before the introduction of the midvalve technology.

And this was in response to someones question reguarding the pros and cons of removing the midvalve. And I have only mentioned this on 1 other board, what other ones are you talking about?? I have never "bad mouthed" RT, your accusation is totally untrue, and unsubstaniated. How about backing up YOUR accusations, pal....how about a link to these posts? I am sure we all would like to see them.......

I have stated elsewhere that I beleive RTs customer service deserves an A+, but I am sure you missed these........

Have a great day! :cool:
John

 

[Blade]

Originally posted by John Curea
Mr. Blade

My apologies for getting on your bad side.......


No bad side here , I have my opinions and you have yours , no big deal.



All I was trying to do was have you substaniate your claim, you said RT doesnt advise removing the midvalve on all aplications. I am very curious what application you are talking about......the only one that I know is the KTM, which I stated is set up so soft that it doesnt warrant removal with the RT build mentallity.



If you know of the KTM then you knew they did not always advise removal. Then you claim otherwise but say it doesn`t count. When it comes down to it the mid valve is really just a tunable check plate. I checked with them about a friends KYB Bladder fork , mid-valve removal with the T2 piston but not with the T1.



You have to understand that RT has designed a suspension package that the average mechanic with an average set of tools can accomplish. In this respect they have been successful, and for the most part have produced a package that is better than the stock suspension.


They had to make it simple enough for the average mechanic to perform and still have the results be better than a stock set up. Even the mechanics of the midvalve build up are more complicated (when we take into consideration float and stack design) than the base assembly procedure. By removing this stack and installing a check plate we have greatly simplified the process of building and tuning the forks.



I understand exactly what it takes to do the work . RT and any other shop worth using is constantly updating their specs to improve. If you can pull a fork down far enough to change to a checkplate you can also pull it down far enough to modify the midvalve. It isn`t rocket science but a lot of shops want people to think it is. The research and testing of shim combinations and piston design is the brain work. RT did design their own pistons. The installation by a service center isn`t the hard part.



IMHO this comes at a cost of performance. When we remove the midvalve we pile all of the damping requirements on the base valve.



I agree the mid valve can improve fork performance , never said otherwise.


Now , onto your accusation of me bad mouthing RT......
The only thing I have ever mention is that removing the midvalve is "back dating your forks 10 years" (which in reality is exactly what is happening). This is the way forks were built before the introduction of the midvalve technology.


And this was in response to someones question reguarding the pros and cons of removing the midvalve. And I have only mentioned this on 1 other board, what other ones are you talking about?? I have never "bad mouthed" RT, your accusation is totally untrue, and unsubstaniated. How about backing up YOUR accusations, pal....how about a link to these posts? I am sure we all would like to see them.......


If I said that MX-Tech products back dated your forks ten years would you not consider that "bad mouthing" your product????
If I mention another board by name you know as well as I do it will be deleted , so here they are Holeshot and Thumpertalk. I am not about to look them up , I have work waiting at my shop to do that is more important.



I have stated elsewhere that I beleive RTs customer service deserves an A+, but I am sure you missed these........


The customer service depends on the service center , I have always had good luck dealing with them direct. I had heard good and bad about their service centers.



Have a great day! :cool:
John

 

[Blade]

I see quotes are displayed differently now , my bad.

 

[John Curea]

Mr. Blade

Very interesting post, especially for one who claims to run short on time.....that was well put together.

Sorry that the comment about "removing the midvalve is back dating the forks ten years" upsets you.....but in reality, it is a fact. How about if we remove the cartridge, then we get back dated about 15 years!! If we toss the damper rod fork we will soon be back dated to springer front ends!!!


Good thing I didnt mention that KYB has used the same piston design for 6 years!!!

Lighten up, its way easier to kick back and enjoy the ride....!!!
John



As for the TT site, rumor has it there are some interesting changes in the future, stay tuned......:cool:

 

[Blade]

I agree midvalve removal is a step backwards , the statement doesn`t "upset" me , I agree with it. I just think your statements about RT suggesting mid-valve removal on all applications is not accurate. There are others ways to build your business.

KYB using the same piston for 6 six years isn`t news , they have used the same cartridge size from something like`96 to `01? I haven`t seen the inside of the new 48s but if they haven`t changed the cartridge size it may be the same also. Why is it a good thing you didn`t mention it??What does it have to do with anything we have mentioned in this thread??

I have 24 hours a day just like everyone else. It isn`t a matter of time but matter of what is important enough to do.

This thread isn`t really going anywhere , I doubt anyone wants to read this kind of thread going back and forth. I have my opinions and you have yours , no big deal. I have other things to do so the thread is all yours.



later , Blade

 

[MikeT]

Uh........

I don't want to get in the middle of your "discussion" but, I'd like to get this thread back to where I started it. I don't know anything about midvalves or what ever. I have changed my fork oil and rear spring, that's it. What I am after is, Do you think spending $300+ dollars (total front and rear) on suspension relvalving is worth it. Do you think the change in your bikes handling is $300 better? I will also be buying the correct springs which will be an additional $160. I am a TOTAL NOVICE when it comes to working on suspension, except for setting sag.