KDX versus KTM EXC? Experiences please.

Dbeast

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Aug 24, 2002
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I recently bought a 93 KTM 250EXC. I was looking for a KDX when I found this and read the KTM was about the same with a better suspension. I have no clue what's been done or if it is running correctly compared to others but I have a question. The bike isn't as mild as I would like, it will idle without stalling but it likes the pipe. When cruising a fire road it's hard to find a spot between lugging and redline to cruise. I realise most 2-strokes are this way but I was hoping. Before I go back to a 4-stroke trail bike is the power delivery much different on the KDX? Can you relax and ride the trail w/o being on the pipe?

Thanks
 

BRush

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Jun 5, 2000
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Yes, the power delivery is different on a KDX. It has a broad tractable powerband. It is an easy to ride trail bike and not (unless you modify it to be that way) a pipey rocket bike.
 

moridin

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Dec 30, 2003
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You pretty much summed it up. There are very few 2S bikes that have the usable power delivery of the KDX. I really like the older Yamaha WR's - they are very nice bikes. If you have the cash - a new KTM EXC300 is quite a bike. It has a ton of power all over the place - and when it is one the pipe - well hold on.

If you are looking for four stokeish feeling - but still want the snap of a 2S - look at the KDX220. Alot of stump pulling power on this bike.
 

canyncarvr

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Oct 14, 1999
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Jetting can change the attitude of your bike from mild to wild. Riding a 2-smoke and NOT being quite familiar with what it takes jet-wise is a large waste of time.


Well, unless you don't care how it runs.

The ktm250 is reported to be considerably smoother than it's younger brother (the 200). If it was a 200exc you were talking about...now THAT I could understand.

Do some research on your carb. It likely has a double taper needle in it, NOZH or somesuch. Something along the lines of a DEK (single taper) can be used in it's place. A number of ktm'rs have changed to the D needle for the express purpose of smoothing out their bikes.

Do some reading on the ktm board. If fishhead is still around, you may try a PM to him about it. He's not riding a 250 that I know of, but he's an orange kind'a guy.

If you are looking for smooth, no-hit broadband power...try a crf250x if you ever get the chance.
 

Dbeast

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Aug 24, 2002
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Thanks for the inputs so far. his weekend I'll check the needle and go one lean while I'm in there. The bike will run below the pipe but isn't extremely happy about it. I was riding a dirt road and finging a comfortable zone that wasn't screaming was hard. The bike does have less of a hit than the RM250 I had but I still liked the feel of my DR650 better. Maybe I'll trade down to a KDX or WR before going 4stroke again.

When riding a fireroad are you SUPPOSED to stay on the pipe? or lug it? Seems hard on the bike at redline with no real work being done to maintain speed.

Thanks
 

cicone

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Sep 29, 2003
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Dbeast said:
When riding a fireroad are you SUPPOSED to stay on the pipe? or lug it? Seems hard on the bike at redline with no real work being done to maintain speed.

Thanks

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I'm not a huge fan of being "on the pipe" at all times---only when that power is needed. As a matter of fact, even with a top speed of 70+mph, I feel the urge to upshift at 50 plus and just have to smile when the realization of already being in 6th comes about! :eek: It may be a trail vs. mx mindset---or that I'm not a very aggressive rider or competing for a living. I'd be interested in hearing others comments concerning throttle position. When cruising I'm always a gear or two higher than I have to be while my mx buddy on his yz250 is thrashing his redline in lower gears. The only time I'm on it is when I need the power to snap the rear end out of a turn or wot to get to comfortable cruising speed---in otherwords, my kips aren't open most of the time.
 
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canyncarvr

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Oct 14, 1999
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re: 'The bike will run below the pipe but isn't extremely happy about it.'

Another ping on jetting......

I'm a bit familiar with the 200exc only because my riding buddy has one. I've ridden it in the past, but only for a few minutes at a time. I couldn't get off it fast enough! It put my arms to sleep in minutes, chain noise was ridiculous. It was a stink buggy ride I couldn't wait to get rid of.

Ran 'fer crap, too.

Then there was yesterday. I rode his exc for several hours. He was nice enough to 'loan' me a bike 'cuz my kdx is going on week five for being 'fixed'.

What a rocket!! The bottom end of the thing is incredible. It screams!! The lack of poundage (vs: the kdx) was a real treat! At speeds below walking pace on hills you would have trouble just standing on, the little punkin pulled as smooth as silk. Give it some gas and you would just 'go'! Front-end didn't come up unless you asked it to.

Yeah..it still has a 2x4 for a seat and the usd forks make the turning radius a bit wide. Still, it was great fun!!

What changed?

Well, a ron black massaged carb, for one. I know what the bottom end of this 200 used to be. Ron's modification helped it in a huge way!

A DEK needle for another thing. I preferred it much over the nozh (I think) it had. Seemed to run considerably smoother to boot!!

I was without my commonly used tweaker, so couldn't adjust the air screw (another circuit affected by the rb-designs modification) as finely as I normally would. Still, it was close enough to be a great ride.

Don't assume the needle that's in there is the best choice cuz, 'They (ktm) ought'a know what they're doing.' I got that type of response when I was trying to find out why kawi put a 4" steel tube in their forks.

That (response) didn't make any sense in that situation either.

Have fun!
 

skipro3

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Dec 14, 2002
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Trade DOWN to a KDX!??!
You come here asking KDXers advise on a KTM then insult us by that comment?
Good thing we are nice guys. When you get the jetting squared away and you think the hit is still too lightswitch like, try a flywheel weight to smooth it out. It will aid in the low speed performance as well as mellow transition to the pipe.
 

Dbeast

Member
Aug 24, 2002
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Trade down meaning cheaper and less racey, not lesser.

The EXC is supposed to have a flywheel weight, it's supposedly the SX motor with a weight and lights. I should check to make sure it's there though but I'm pretty sure it is.

I'll check the rod and maybe the jetting this weekend. Is the powervalve adjustable in some way that can change the power characteristics? What jetting effects the mid power?

Anyone want to trade bikes for a few? Thanks for all the help so far.
 

Dbeast

Member
Aug 24, 2002
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Buy the way, it has an FMF Fatty pipe. It came with 2 others I need to did out. I think I have the stock one but one of the 2 had a big dent and I can't remember which one. Will the pipe make a major difference?
 

skipro3

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Dec 14, 2002
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Dbeast said:
Trade down meaning cheaper and less racey, not lesser.

Anyone want to trade bikes for a few? Thanks for all the help so far.


Dbeast, you may have just discribed my wife. Now that wouldn't be a problem, but hey man, that's my bike your talking about. She ain't cheap, the KTM's are just overpriced, and she's plenty racey enough for the likes of an old fart like Fredette to win on. (You do realize I'm just having fun here right?)
Any time you are out to Northern California, let me know and I will let you spend a day on my bike, no problem.
 

fuzzy

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Jul 26, 2002
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As CC said, jetting will be your key here. The 250exc can be a very docile ride when jetted right. Awesome torque, and top end. Will only be electric smooth with carb work.

When comparing to a KDX it would be different if you were still shopping, but you own it already. That being said, I'd keep it at least until you have a chance to get the carb sorted out(this is something that will also be needed on a KDX or any bike for that matter). The EXC is arguably a better bike...Not that the KDX isn't a sweet bike either. :cool:
 

canyncarvr

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Oct 14, 1999
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The stock pipe on the 200 is far more tractable than the aftermarket FmF for that bike. Don't know how that compares to the 250. You can get the stock pipe undented. $50 at pacific crest pipe repair.

Yes, a pipe can make a major difference.

Sure. It comes 'with' a weight. Check with steahly for other weight options. Like skipro sez, it will help a good deal.

Again (another 200 comment) the exc I rode has a steahly. Without the RB modified carb and with no additional weight I don't see how the thing could be anything but useless in the woods.

Shouldn't this be over on the ktm board anyway? The guys that actually ride the thing should have some valid input.

While the '95% rider, 5% bike' idea may be a bit hyperbolic (not much) when it comes to 'better bike', exactly what you will get is an argument. I can't catch my riding buddy when I'm on my kdx and he's on anything....his exc or his crf250x. And if we traded bikes, I still[/c] couldn't catch him. Still, I'd choose the kdx over a pumpkin bike.

The 250 will work per your description. Tune it.

BTW, 'down' means down. Was a comment you could well have left out...it's a hand-biter.
 

Smokin Joe

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Apr 21, 2000
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For < $50 in Brass You'll be Grinnin'

DBeast- Don't give up on that white ghost yet! As others have suggested, your salvation lies in jetting. Go to:
Carb Parts Warehouse
which has a couple great charts for needles and has real good prices on jets.

Most likely, you have a dual or even triple taper needle which never worked like it was supposed to. Go to a single taper like the DEK or a CEK, the "D" has a 1.75 degree taper compared to the 1.50 degrees of the "C". I am sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong but the "C" needle should result in a more linear power band. Go with the "D" to get clean jetting while still retaining a "hit". You will also need to go up a few on the main since the dual/triple tapers have a very thin tip so the fatter tipped single taper needs a bigger main to give the same amount of juice at the needle-to-main transition from 3/4 throttle.

Suggested Jets to start with

  • Pilot: 42 or 45 (get a 40 & 48 while your at it)
  • Needle CEJ, CEK or DEJ, DEK or even all 4 (the "J's" are richer being the next diameter smaller)
  • Main: 175, 178 (170 to 185 to cover all possiblilities)
  • Air Screw: 1 to 3 but try to find the needle / pilot combo that gets you the best idle / roll on with the screw at 1.5 turns out.
  • That should get you in the ballpark

Start with the needle (put in a 178 main to start). Get the 1/4 to 3/4 response you want by adjusting the needle clip. Then fine tune the pilot / air screw and go to the main last.

Good Luck!

Joe
 
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gjc32

Member
Jan 9, 2004
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skipro3 said:
Dbeast, you may have just discribed my wife. Now that wouldn't be a problem, but hey man, that's my bike your talking about. She ain't cheap, the KTM's are just overpriced, and she's plenty racey enough for the likes of an old fart like Fredette to win on. (You do realize I'm just having fun here right?)
Any time you are out to Northern California, let me know and I will let you spend a day on my bike, no problem.

KTM's aren't overpriced at all, you get much more value throughout the entire bike that is well worth the extra money. This includes DFii reeds, good handlebars, better rims, pipe, suspension, on and on and on, that is way better than parts on a stock KDX. I've already put into my KDX (bike and upgrades) what I would have paid for a '04 300 EXC and still haven't upgraded my front suspension and my KDX still can't hold a candle to a KTM, performance wise. KTM's are definitely not overpriced, KDX's are just cheaper (price and quality) and there is a price to pay for that. I love my KDX, but have learned that since money wasn't the issue, I should have gotten the KTM.
 

gjc32

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Jan 9, 2004
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gjc32 said:
KTM's aren't overpriced at all, you get much more value throughout the entire bike that is well worth the extra money. This includes DFii reeds, good handlebars, better rims, pipe, suspension, on and on and on, that is way better than parts on a stock KDX. I've already put into my KDX (bike and upgrades) what I would have paid for a '04 300 EXC and still haven't upgraded my front suspension and my KDX still can't hold a candle to a KTM, performance wise. KTM's are definitely not overpriced, KDX's are just cheaper (price and quality) and there is a price to pay for that. I love my KDX, but have learned that since money wasn't the issue, I should have gotten the KTM.

Actually, I'm glad I don't have a KTM. My bike does run great now, is much more comfortable, I prefer green and it's more fun being the underdog.
 

Dbeast

Member
Aug 24, 2002
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skipro3, you'll notice I like the KDX because that's what I wanted, what I'm comparing too, and why I'm here. The KTM does come with some bonuses like gjc32 mentioned but at the moment I'm not riding hard enough to notice. That is except for the rock hard seat and expensive ignition parts which I had to replace the coil twice.

Is there a good site about carbs so I can go read up and ask some educated dumb questions? I'm familiar with CV type Mikuni's but that's it.

Smokin Joe. I will definately pull the carb and find out where I'm at ASAP.

Thanks guys. Chris
 

TheGrinch

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Nov 26, 2000
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How'd you go sorting this out Chris?

I know how you feel. I owned a Husqvarna WR250 and had the same problems. I ended up selling it and buying a KDX200 instead. I'm much happier.
 

CaptainObvious

Formally known as RV6Junkie
Damn Yankees
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Jan 8, 2000
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Canyncarvr,

I like the new signature...

kklgls5ibkr0 i05khpo5e0p9g9098iA*()*9449iugfm'4 g9rjo*&(9-8gj boip4'gav ra a for sale. iaopjienr AND 7890&*(789fnio3hjbn v 8 or nmiklvie (*_7890-vj3 ><?"><:P{}8i78e3wnI'minvisible....

Kind of hard to sing along with though.
 

Dbeast

Member
Aug 24, 2002
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OK, time granted me 20 minutes. The bike has a 55 pilot, 180 main, and an R14S5N needle 2 from lean. The mix is Honda oils at 1 pint per 5 gal with spooge at the pipe and the pipe to silencer junction. The manual calles out a PJ 38 carb, 55/185/R1465N

Think I'll repost in the KTM forum soon but thanks for the help, Mockery is the highest form of flattery.

How does the jetting effect power band? The bike will make the same max if the AF is correct at WOT regardless of the taper of the needle, so why the punch?
 

skipro3

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Dec 14, 2002
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gjc32 said:
KTM's aren't overpriced at all, you get much more value throughout the entire bike that is well worth the extra money. This includes DFii reeds, good handlebars, better rims, pipe, suspension, on and on and on, that is way better than parts on a stock KDX. I've already put into my KDX (bike and upgrades) what I would have paid for a '04 300 EXC and still haven't upgraded my front suspension and my KDX still can't hold a candle to a KTM, performance wise. KTM's are definitely not overpriced, KDX's are just cheaper (price and quality) and there is a price to pay for that. I love my KDX, but have learned that since money wasn't the issue, I should have gotten the KTM.
I've probably spent as much on my KDX since I first bought it as I origionally paid for it, so I understand what you are talking about there. However, I think my KDX is every bit as good as a 220 can be against a 300 EXC plus mine is a lot more fun for a guy my age and riding style. If I ever get rid of my KDX or find that I have reason to buy a replacement for my current bike, there would be a good chance I would get a KTM 300 EXC. Mainly because it will be a cold day in heII before I ride anything that doesn't smell as sweet as two smoke. Every time I kick my bike over and the exhaust hits my nose and the two stroke note hits my ear, 32 years fade away and I'm 16 again. Damn those bunnyhuggers and 4 strokes.
 
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marksharp

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Sep 29, 2002
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Extra money

I just totaled all of the upgrades I made to my 220 for the insurance company, I decided to insure it in case it was stolen. It turns out I bought it twice. Seems extreme but I'm super happy with the bike now and all of the mods and I don't think a KTM would be any better for me and my style riding. I can tell you this from the KTM riders I have talked to, although all of the bikes are technically ready to ride, the KTM guys do lots of mods to their bikes as well. If you want to get the most out of your ride, eventually you will make the mods to fit your expectations. If you don't put it in your bike, you'll probably spend it somewhere else on something stupid. Green or orange, trick it out and have fun.
 

skipro3

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Dec 14, 2002
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Well put marksharp. When the little woman starts to complain about the expenses of my riding habit, I explain that I could be spending it in the pub instead. Then she leaves me alone. If I had all the money I've spent on dirtriding over my lifetime, it would buy me a pretty good retirement. But at least now, I have some memories for when that day finally comes. I went to the track today and parked next to an old ford econoline van like I used to have back in the 70's. A short while later, 2 guys rode up. One on a bultaco persang and the other on a '68 BSA. They were 72 and 78 years old respectively. Now that's what I want to be doing when I get that age. The older guy in answering my question, "how is it out on the track?", said: " That ground sure is hard out there, I know, I found it."
 

BRush

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marksharp said:
I can tell you this from the KTM riders I have talked to, although all of the bikes are technically ready to ride, the KTM guys do lots of mods to their bikes as well.

Ah, you've discovered the dirty little secret of KTM ownership :cool: : If you buy a KTM, you will dump just as much aftermarket cash into the KTM as you did on the KDX. The only rider that will be happy with a box stock KTM is the one was also happy with a box stock KDX. Sure, the stock KTM components are good, but the main problem is this: once you get used to the benefits of customizing a bike to your particular tastes, you’ll want to do the same on any bike you own. KTM riders replace bars, add steering dampers, get the suspension revavled and re-sprung, put on aftermarket pipes, install guards, and change plastic at the same rate as anyone else.
 
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