KTM50's in pw50 class?

[stu182]

Whats the rules on the pw50 class? I've heard they can run the new ktm 50's in the pw class now? This is district 11. Is the just pittalk? I;ve seen the jr50's run before just figured it was up the the people running the race?

 

[dirt bike dave]

Stu,
Here is a link to the AMA. There are tables showing the classes the 2001 and 2002 minis are eligbible for.

http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/

 

[wardy]

its an oil injected class made for pw and jr . thats it, unless ktm made an injector bike?

wardy

 

[stu182]

Well they are legal in District 11 we raced twice this week and they were at both races. They said these bike are 2.5 hp but go at least 10 mph faster than a pw. Base price is 1300. I can see the pw's being put out with these bikes coming. They also have 7 inch of suspension to the pw's 3'. And a FMF pipe. They are also Not oil-injected. I looked at the rules but got a headache looking for what i wanted so. Looks like i'm selling the PW for a real bike.

 

[wardy]

why don't you call AMA in the morning and talk to an official and they will handle this. that class was brought around 4 years ago specifically for the pw and jr.......so anything that is not oil injected is not legal plain and simple. UNLESS it is NOT an AMA race or its a combination class with 50cc jr.
I have forwarded ALL this thread to the proper officials at AMA already, but unless someone complains Officially, then it won't be dealt with.
If you truely want to fix this problem buying another bike will not acheive that goal, it will only put your son's elgibilty in that class in jepoardy like the others are now. be a part of the solution.....
thanks


wardy

 

[stu182]

I'm not really complaining, What i'm saying is i want to know if it's legal or not, becuase if it is I'm all for a better bike for kids to learn on. I think Yam has had plenty of time to "update " the pw. Sure its a beginners bike but more the reason to make it safe. Ktm's have a foot brake option, better suspension, and a thinner profile. But like you said it's a oil injected class, even though most all the PW's we race have the oil injector unhooked. Guess I'll call my local AMA guy.

 

[James980]

Originally posted by wardy
so anything that is not oil injected is not legal plain and simple

KTM now has a KTM OI 50, which is basically a Junior Adventure with oil injection, I believe. That's the KTM that is legal for Class 3 now. I couldn't find anything at ktmusa.com, but the bike is listed on the AMA's list of eligible bikes for Class 3.

Tracks running Class 3 will need to be on the lookout for regular Junior Adventures without the OI.

Also, as Wardy said, if it's a local class and not the Class 3 (a lot of tracks still run the "shaft-drive" class, which effectively outlaws all but the PW), then it's pretty much up to the guy running the race.

James

 

[wardy]

STU! I just today got an answer on this from AMA and yep you were correct. KTM has just built an oil injected class three bike so it is LEGAL.
Of course its likely going to dominate the class until congress looks at it for next season.
sorry about the delay but we haven't seen that bike out here and not many of our tracks run class 3.

wardy

 

[Jasle]

go check out http://www.amadirectlink.com/rulebooks/50cc.asp it shows what bike is legal for what class in the 51cc stock classes. The KTM is OK for class 3. i checked with two of our local dealers and one had one in stock and the other told me that KTM didn't make an oil injected bike. There probably aren't too many of these out there but you can bet your butt the fast guys will at Loretta's.

 

[stu182]

At 10 mph faster and 3 inches more suspension I wouldn't take that bet. ;) :think:

 

[BunduBasher]

I think he meant, all the fast guys will, not only be checking these bikes out, but will all be racing them at LL's ;)

 

[wardy]

but that plain SUCKS! I know the KTM dude personally at congress and he sits in our committee meetings. I will tell him point blank this is not a good thing. These kids don't need that crap at frekin 4 years old, and I know its the parents first, but damit quit dangling the carrot!

things like this will or could hurt our sport, those begginer kids do NOT need to go 10 MPH faster, I have a 6 year old that goes 30+ on the pw now in the back yard. Plenty dam fast enough!

I been in this sport for close to 30 years, and this kind of thing makes me nuts.

Then they wonder why certain states in this country are looking at banning any kind of motorized racing for kids under 12! it can happen.

wardy

stepping off the soap box and twisting my knee :debil:

 

[sharp7277]

A little off the subject but I bought my little nephew a Kasea 50cc shaft drive dirt bike that goes about the same speed as a PW and looks the same but its not oil injected you have to mix the gas, would ama still let this bike race? Its still a automatic bike that has little power just like the PW if not less.

 

[wardy]

but it wouldn't hurt to ask AMA on it. That class when we formed it in a committee that I happen to chair that year was pretty intent to keep it a "pw & Jr " class or at least keep it that speed of bike. Your machine looks like it would fit that criteria and it mite or could be added to the list. I know that this class 3 will likely get a face lift for 03, in fact I think i will write the rule change proposal tonight.

wardy

 

[Jasle]

Wardy,
I have to disagree with you a little on the Pw's not needing more power. Both my 4 and 6 year old race here in Az. The Pw class bikes race the same track as everyone else. Until we changed to the QT50 gear we would have to post friends at about 3-4 of the hills on the track to push the Pw up the hill. It just does not have the power to climb the hills. The xr50 is 2.8hp so I would guess the PW to be in close to that.
The KTM is listed as 2.5Hp on their web site. This is not the same bike that runs with the Cobra's and Polini's. This is the Mini adventure. Its samller than the PRo jr. Air cooled, less HP and has hand brakes. very entry level bike. 2 shoe clutch that hits early. But being a chain drive you at least have the option of changing gearing realatively inexpensively. It cost me $175 for a new ring and pinion from Yam to change my gearing. And proper suspension does nothing but help a kid. OUr old Pw looked like a chopper from my 6 year old jumping it. The frame design is crap and the head tube is wallowed out from the pounding of jumping.
Basically the Pw has remained unchanged since 1982 except for color changes. I think its great to have a little competition in the market.
Also the price is right. the bike is $1248 at my local dealer. about $1550 out the door. Thats right in line with the PW round here.

And as far as 10mph faster being too much I think you could change gearing to take topend away. We will probably end up doing that anyway for the MX track. Plan on having one here in the next few weeks and I will leave an update on how it works out.
Also I noticed the class is now 4-8. I thought it was 4-6 before? No way a 4 or 6 year old can compete with an 8 year old if the 8 year old has been riding a while. I know this is basically the beginner class but if 8 year olds are allowed then you know the guys with $$$ are going to have 2 bikes, one for 7-8 class and one fro 4-8 class.

Now anyone want a 2000PW $800 brand new cylinder, pistion with only 2 races on them. New plastic still in box too.

Jason

 

[stu182]

Jason i agree, the pw has been unchanged for almost 20 yrs. Sure its a beginner bike but imo more the reason to have better suspension. Ktm also has a option for a foot brake. I have no clue why yam wouldn't put one on this bike. One of the biggest thing my son had to get used to was a foot brake instead of hand brake. Starting a kid out with a hand brake is wrong. Hard for little hands to fully engage it.
Where i would agrue is the shaft to chain thing. If its a pw shaft class then they shouldn't be allowed.
Around d-11 it's 4-8 and yea when my son started out he had to race against kids that would jump off a cobra or ktm. Now that my son 7 and riding to classes. I can see a logic. Starting out they build the desire to win from losing alot. The older they get the more experience they get and the more they win. And it's all about building the kids confidence and riding experience.

I'll stop rambling on now.

 

[Jasle]

I guess the question I have is will this be legal for Loretta's? I was under the impression the Loretta class was 4-6 shaft drive oil injected. at least thats what I saw over at http://www.mxsports.com/classes.html that strays from the normal AMA class 3 rules.
I'm guessing that it will be only PW's at Loretta's if I am reading this right. We'll be keeping the Pw for now because if we get the KTM we will jump up to the Cobra Class locally from what I am told.

Jason

 

[wardy]

well guys i guess we can disagree. Granted its no secret that the Pw and or the Jr hasn't changed at all. BUt then again i have a little problem with a 4 year old racing anyway. I mean sure if the kid is capable then they should be able race, but I just can see Dad pushing his shiny orange KTM to the line. Setting junior on it and with maybe three blocks of wood he can get balanced
up to leave the line.Then, Dad after the gate drops is running hard since Junior just wheelied over backwards and took out three other kids since He isn't used to the brakes or the power.
Bottom line is this, there is 50Jr class, and 50 sr for the hotrods in those age brackets. Leave class 3 alone, period. So junior has a place to race his under powered, under suspended bike, and if the track owners in your area don't have a track that the pw can manage, then I bet you you will go to a track that has one for those bikes and kids. thats what has happend around here.

to answer another question, Class 3 is Oil injected, says nothing about shaft driven. Its in the rule book.

I guess i am getting old, but i just don't see the need for a kid to be racing that young. Riding sure, racing........for who?

wardy

 

[Jasle]

Wardy,
OK I'll agree to disagree. I do agree that forcing the kids to race at that young can be very bad! My four year old, turns five next month, only races because we are already at the track. There are a couple of of other wee ones to race with and its fun.
I think you missed my point on the power of the KTM. The mini-adventure is not at all like the Pro Jr or Pro Sr. It has 2.5 Hp. That is right in line with PW. It will not loop out even under full throttle from Junior. It has the same type power band as the PW. Not the screamer the fast kids are on! Its a putter with decent suspension and better ergonomics. Real motorcycle ergonomics. It really isn't the speed demon your envisioning. Go down and check one out. We checked them out and didn't buy one only because they aren't legal at Loretta's. The 6 year old qualified for the regional on the PW othewise I think it would be a great beginner bike.

Jason

 

[Jasle]

Wardy,
To answer your qeustion on who a four year old was racing for. Our four year old girl races. She is about to turn five and has been racing for about three months. We are at the track since big bro is racing so we asked her if she wanted to race. She said yes. Some weekends she does, some she doesn't. Usually depends on how many girls are at the track.
My point is this. The confidence she has gained is really surprising. Everyone at the track encourages her especially when they find out she is a girl. Also she has gotten first place a few times and she carries the trophy around to all the neighbors to show it off. Also she brought one to chearleading practice and the team gave her a cheer. She was flyin high after that. Really excited and proud of her Trophy.
I think most sports build self esteem if the kids can see that practice and hard work pays off. Most teens really lack self esteem and I feel that if you can start building it up it will help them down the line. So at four I see no reason not to race. Our criteria was that before she could race she had to ride the whole track, keep a straight line, and pick the bike up herself.
Its probably not enough to change your point of view but maybe its something to think about?
Have a good one.
JAson

 

[James980]

Originally posted by Jasle
Also I noticed the class is now 4-8. I thought it was 4-6 before? No way a 4 or 6 year old can compete with an 8 year old if the 8 year old has been riding a while. I know this is basically the beginner class but if 8 year olds are allowed then you know the guys with $$$ are going to have 2 bikes, one for 7-8 class and one fro 4-8 class.

Well, a five year old can compete with an eight year old if they both truely are beginners. Unfortunately, skill levels can be all over the map at such young ages. There are four-year olds out there who can out-ride eight-year olds no problem. Age restrictions help, but they can't be the only guide; hence, the 7-8 beginner class (Class 3).

Class 3 allows the parents and promoter some discretion in deciding who should be allowed to race it. Is this written into the rule book? Not really. Can an eight-year-old kid legally jump of his King Cobra (or KX65 even) onto a PW (or JR or KTM-OI) and spank butt in Class 3. Sure. We've all seen it happen. But these are the cases where the pit bull race promoter (aka, Wardy ;) ) and the parents have a moral obligation to question A) the fairness of this situation, B) the financial sense of this situation (turnout will be affected next race), and C) the safety of this decision, which is the most important, of course. Such sandbagging is akin to having a pack of slow "C" guys on a quarter-sized track with a top-three "A" guy except the "A" guy has the maturity and decision making capabilities of an eight-year old, and sometimes a very cocky eight-year old.

The point is that anything that makes Class 3 more of a balls-out race class and less of a have-fun-with-it play class is bad for the sport. Now, the question of the moment is, Does the KTM-OI do this?

On one hand, yes. We're hearing it's basically a KTM50JR with oil injection added, and guys are reporting seeing them smoke the field at certain races. On the other hand, no. We're hearing it has the power of a PW50 and simply provides a better suspended ride with the option of making easier gearing changes.

Still, my inclination would be to hold that if your kid needs the better suspension, then he's riding the bike hard enough to be in Class 1 or 2; that is, he's not a beginner anymore and should not be moved up. Further, if you want the option of making gear changes, then buy a JR. They are chain-driven.

The PW hasn't changed in 20 years because, although it may not seem like it at times, they ARE NOT coming out of the womb any faster. A beginner is still a beginner, and the beginner class should not become a trophy factory for a kid who belongs in Class 1 or Class 2. If the KTM-OI facilitates this, then it's bad news. If not, then it's no big deal.

...as every argument does in motocross, it all boils down to the sandbagging.

James
<pissed because his Monday ritual for the past five weeks has involved A) getting coffee, B) checking e-mail, C) shovelling money into the bowels of Action Racing to keep his kid's Polini running...this week, clutch basket and piston kit.>

 

[Jasle]

>Still, my inclination would be to hold that if your kid needs the better >suspension, then he's riding the bike hard enough to be in Class 1 or 2; that >is, he's not a beginner anymore and should not be moved up. Further, if >you want the option of making gear changes, then buy a JR. They are chain->driven.

I guess I gotta agree with the statment above. About the time we started bending the PW frame we did in fact move the oldest up. I was very surprised to see how much more confidence he had with better bike. We had one stage in between the Cobra and it was a 1997 KTM Pro Jr. Really a P.O.Crap but much better than the PW as far as suspension. The kid was way better on it. Crazy what a difference suspension will do.

You just dumped $$$ in to the Polini huh? Guess you shoulda bought a Cobra 8*) Ok I'll admit we just had to dump a few $$ ourselves. You ought to try the dominator clutch int he Polini. The Polini guys around here really like them.
Jason
PS can anyone pm me on how to use the cool quote feature?

 

[James980]

Originally posted by Jasle
can anyone pm me on how to use the cool quote feature?

Click the "quote" link below the message you want to quote.

As far as the Polini goes, first the clutch went. (OK, normal wear, I guess, so no big deal.) But then the air box cracked where the mud flap bolts on and it sucked a bunch of dirt. Got a new air box and cleaned the carb a million times but it still ran like crap -- way, way rich. (I did pull the cylinder; luckily, it wasn't scored, but the ring was far beyond spec and I replaced that.) So, I figured the right side crank seal was shot and put in a new one. Still ran rich, so I now blame it on the weather because it was about 10-15 degrees warmer after I got the airbox and clutch fixed than when he last rode it. Dropped the main two sizes and the needle a clip and it ran like a raped ape. Finally took him out and the clutch is still slipping. (Yes, I did de-glaze the basket.) Now I figure the basket's just worn, but it's still pulling him OK, so like an idiot I let him keep riding the thing. Well, due to either the very high temps from the slipping clutch or maybe an air leak -- it suddenly started idling erratically that day, too, so perhaps the left side seal is toast too? -- it throws and breaks the ring and cracks the piston. Thanks to dumb luck, the cylinder is still OK except for a very small chip on the exhaust port. But now I have to worry about getting all the junk out from around the crank. (I've flushed it several times with WD-40.) Don't even get me started on the brakes.

Cobra, my ass. I should have just put him on a TTR90, saved myself about 1.5 grand and told him to save the jumping for the 65 class.

James

 

[Jasle]

Just joking about the cobra. It seems to me all of the Fast peewee's have their problems. We are looking at the KX60. We can get them brand new OTD here for $1700. It won't be competative in the 65 class but that won't really matter. He's just 6 so it will be 3 years until we will worry about being competative. I'm sure the 60 will still be running strong by then with only minimal maintenance. 8*)
Jason

 

[Riptide]

The ktm 50 sx mini is a oil injected bike im not exact on what years but my son has a 2016 that is oil injected but I’ve also been to ame races where he had to compete in the 50cc big bike class and was not allowed to race in the pw50 class so it’s up to the organization but in the ama rule book the ktm 50 jr SHOULD qualify in class 3 or the pw50 class