Ando

Member
Apr 5, 2000
66
0
Haven't posted in a long time, but these oil threads just suck me in.
Friction modifiers are a class of additives that include both friction reducers and friction adders. With oil bath clutches, the type of additive we are worried about is the friction reducer and its potentially degrading effect on the clutch. Typically, these take the form of a grease, they have a polar head that adhears to metal or fiber, with a long organic chain that trails out behind. The long organic chain helps to hold oil in close the surface of the metal and decrease the observed coefficient of friction. There are many other type of friction modifiers, but I think these are the ones most likely to cause clutch trouble. I hope this description was clear.

In the past several months there have been two very informative articles about oil in MCN written by the same guy who wrote that first article.
 

Vic

***** freak.
LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 5, 2000
4,008
0
ANDO LIVES !!!
smile.gif
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
I was wondering where you've been. I guess it figures this madness would be what wakens you from your hibernation
smile.gif


Did you get your piglet yet?
 

HiG4s

~SPONSOR~
Mar 7, 2001
1,311
0
From Pennzoil’s web site:

“Pennzoil as well as all other major motor oil producers use paraffinic base oils to produce motor oil. This type of base oil has advantages over the other types of mineral oil available, which is why they are universally used. The only exceptions are synthetic motor oils, which of course cost much more than mineral oil based motor oils. Synthetic base stocks are 100% paraffinic. Technically, paraffinic oil is a term used to describe the chemical structure, not the wax content. Through dewaxing in the refinery and the addition of pour point depressants during blending any harmful effects of wax are eliminated or neutralized.”

I could have swore someone here mentioned a couple different compounds that synthetics are based on?

From Mike Guillroy:

“I have no evidence that motorcycle oils are *NOT* better, but I have plenty of
evidence that automotive oils that meet SJ and/or CH indeed are good.

From Castrol:

“To address your question in regards to using our passenger engine oil lubricants with an API rating of SJ/SH as appropriate in a motorcycle; the response would be that our products such as SYNTEC, GTX and SYNTEC Blend have not been tested in the unique motorcycle endurance applications and wet clutch testing protocol. With the change in passenger car oils to API SJ came an increase in friction modifiers and a decrease in zinc and phosphorus, addressing concerns with fuel economy and catalytic converter/pollution issues for passenger vehicles.
For motorcycles, the additional friction modifiers can affect wet clutch performance, and motorcycle engines appreciate a higher level of the anti-wear ingredients of zinc and phosphorus. Castrol motorcycle oils are produced to API SG standards, the optimal formulation for bike engines which allows us to optimize the formula specifically for motorcycles without being constrained by the specification demands for passenger car engines.
All of our new motorcycle oils exceed API SG and JASO MA recommendations.”

This wasn’t very helpful and they did not answer my question about Paraffins.

Rich,

I would like to here and now, in front of the whole group, apologize. My original post in no way was meant to insult anyone. I am extremely cynical and my only intent was to question the source, perhaps debate the issue, and to come to an understanding about the subject.
When you responded somewhat harshly I was incensed and responded too abrasively and upon reflection I apologize for that too. I really am not looking to make enemies here and came here to be part of the dirt biking community. Something I have been away from too long.
I find that when I post on a board I just type and post. Somewhat of an irony as I am a writer. But when I write stories or articles I go back over them dozens of times to get everything just right. On line I just write. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Al (HiG4s)



[This message has been edited by HiG4s (edited 03-14-2001).]
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
There are no hard feelings on my part. Anyone who has been here for any length of time knows I don't hold a grudge, I'm just VERY protective of the quality of DRN.

Given the idiot-fest that the internet has turned into it's nice having a place like DRN where the members have banned together to share quality info, make some friends and share a few laughs.
There is something pretty cool about this many people striving to uphold the same high standards. I guess it's why we get over 110,000 unique visits each month.
 

weimedog

~SPONSOR~
Damn Yankees
Nov 21, 2000
959
2
Boy I hate pride fights. Seem like Rich's motive is simply to get as much good data on this network as possible. Also to "moderate" the tone and style so we, as members; can assimilate the data and make an informed decision. I thank Rich for that. He's done an excellent job from my point of view. I have learned a lot from the diverse data spilled over this site.

By the way, here is a bit of text on another posting here at DRN from the Belray folks...

"EXS Synthetic Superbike
10W-50 contains ester base stock which molecularly bonds to metal engine
parts, unlike the PAO's found in many competitors' oils. The esters give
incredible start-up protection and, although it is more expensive to make,
we feel that your experience with EXS will show that it is worth it."

I believe this might be the reference to other base stocks.



------------------
2001 VOR503 V-Cross
1982 husqvarna XC430
1974 Bultaco Frontera 360
6 Kids, Four Ride, 3 race. (cr125, yz80, 2 KX125's)
Case 780, INT 1066, Ford LTL9000...and a Percheron
 

Arizona_Jeff

Member
Feb 6, 2001
20
0
Man we made headlines over at thumpertalk now everyone is gonna come over here to see the fuss but only see love man!!! I dont know guy's love in a lube forum makes me feel kinda funny,like when we used to climb the ropes in gym class.
 

weimedog

~SPONSOR~
Damn Yankees
Nov 21, 2000
959
2
Arizona, I think you need to hang on to those handle bars a little more often and forget about ropes.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 5, 2000
66
0
The pigs are flyin' on this little island, thanks. The YZ250F is undoubtedly the greatest dirt bike ever made(once you get it started).

I just love these oil threads repeating themselves every two to three months or so.

------------------
Ando
Just another day in Paradise
Two Wheels, Kauai
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
SO Ando, what OIL are you running in the 250F?
biggrin.gif
smile.gif
biggrin.gif
 

Ando

Member
Apr 5, 2000
66
0
Well I was at Pep Boys the other day in the oil isle and there was this guy there with a Pep Boys shirt on and I asked him what he would use in a motorcycle, and he said in his old Trail 90 that he just recycled the old oil from his Dad's Buick after they change it cuz since cars and motorcycles need different additives that the car used up all the car additives but there was still a whole bunch of motorcyle additives in it, but I had to make sure that I added a can of STP PowerUP to get maximum performance and protection.

------------------
Ando
Just another day in Paradise
Two Wheels, Kauai
 

Shaw520

Damn Yankees
LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 14, 2000
1,082
6
I believe these debates arrive from the fact that in our crankcases there is a mixed enviroment. What may be optimum for our gear sets, may be detrimental to our clutch sets.

Also there are three classes of consumers;
.99 quart - (oil does its job w/frequent changes)
$2.29 quart - (best lubrication and breakdown resistance for the money)
$5-$8 quart -(Money is not an issue, just want the best protection one can buy)

[This message has been edited by Shaw520 (edited 03-16-2001).]
 

mechantloup

Member
Feb 5, 2001
55
0
Is it not logical that good quality, purpose made oil outperform cheap non purpose made oil ??? Motorcycle have special lubrication requirement (wet clutch,shared transmission oil,hi engine temp,high rpm..)that need to be taken in consideration ...If you have a 100$ bike use .99$ oil !!
wink.gif
I will stick with Belray EXS...even at 49.95can$$ a gallon...



------------------
mechantloup
GRRRR!!!
KTM 520 EXC 01
Japanschrott?!Nein danke !!!
 

weimedog

~SPONSOR~
Damn Yankees
Nov 21, 2000
959
2
I guess I fit into Shaw520's last group. Cost no object. But one thing I learned is the Mobil One 15w50 may be an anomoly as they can keep the price down because of their enormous production/sales size vs. the other offerings. The guys who build additives for my trucks have told me that Mobil One is hard to build product for as its too damn good to justify their additives. ( They do automotive/trucking as well...and I asked everyone about this oil thing )

I change my oil after every race or every two rides anyway. helps my keep track of whats going on in my transmission and motor. I am torn between the Mobil One 15w50 option and Amsoil or Belray. Until I hear compelling reasons or data NOT to use Mobil One, I'm going to use it in all my bikes except my VOR which I use BelRay or Amsoil in (Depending on which dealer I go to for stuff)

Right now its BelRay because this is a cost-is-no-object situation and I believe the BelRay is the best money can buy right now and thats what my VOR dealer stocks.

------------------
2001 VOR503 V-Cross
1982 husqvarna XC430
1974 Bultaco Frontera 360
6 Kids, Four Ride, 3 race. (cr125, yz80, 2 KX125's)
Case 780, INT 1066, Ford LTL9000...and a Percheron
 

Boit

Sponsoring Member
Sep 5, 2000
116
0
I had something witty and humorous to post, but it has slipped by me. I think it had something to do with a guy named Pythagoras. Didn't he invent the circle? Maybe it was Mr. Clean. I dunno.
 

Vic

***** freak.
LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 5, 2000
4,008
0
Yes, and Rich is the majority shareholder in the Mobil Oil Corporation. The company would long since be bankrupt, if not for Rich touting Mobil 1 on this board.
biggrin.gif
 

kmccune

2-Strokes forever
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 3, 1999
2,726
1
Jeff,

Don’t be sorry for the post, it was very useful. Some here may have different opinions but then they need to provide proof. This is just the type of post that I’d like to see!

PS I have been using synthetic auto motor oil in my bikes for years with no clutch problems! I do use motorcycle 2-stoke oil though, those little 2-stoke oil bottles at the hardware store do scare me.

Kevin


------------------
McCune's Scottish Pub
Brews That You Can Chew!
 

Vic

***** freak.
LIFETIME SPONSOR
May 5, 2000
4,008
0
Originally posted by poser:
Go ahead, change it around so I look like a dumbass.

Obviously, no editing is required.
eek.gif
 

Deeler

Member
Feb 19, 2000
43
0
If we could get back to the oil questions for a minute.....
Would mixing 1 qt. of 10w40 with 1 qt. of 20W50 result in 15W45, or chemical soup?
I have a little of each left, and thought I'd throw them in together...
Any thoughts on mixing two different brands of oil, (same weight)?

DAVE
 

EK

Member
Dec 3, 2000
66
0
Deeler,

I asked your question of Castrol some years back and their reply was the resulting viscosity was essentially a weighted average of the 2 oils being mixed. I mix different oil viscosities in some of my cars and motorcycles to get the desired viscosity.

By the way, as an Engineer, I attended a Society of Tribologists and Lubricating Engineers seminar on lubricants last month. According to them, 99% of effective lubrication is getting the correct viscosity. The remaining 1% of the lubrication effectiveness is in the additive package.

Another interesting note, 20W-50 has much less viscosoty modifying additives than 10W-40 or 10W-30 oil. As such, if you can use a 20W-50 it is inherently less subject to viscosity modifier additive (long chain polymer) breakdown. However, it does not flow as well at low temps.

Eric K
'01 GasGas 300XC
'99 WR400F (for sale)
'01 TTR125L (wife)
'00 TTR90 (son 1)
'97 XR70R (son 2)
'99 Z50R (daughter)



[This message has been edited by EK (edited 03-19-2001).]
 

Arizona_Jeff

Member
Feb 6, 2001
20
0
This is cool three pages and a bunch of mad people and yet no one even ripped on each other mothers only oil! Go figuer. Hey whats the most pages a post has made? Jeff
 
Top Bottom