need some help from you guys

[cgibsong001]

hi, new member here. sorry, i'm actually not a rider. i'm here to ask some help from you guys. i am doing a high school entrepreneurship project in which me and two of my classmates are starting a business in which we will repair motorcycle valves. I have absolutely no clue about any of this stuff. My one classmate will be doing all the repair work while me and my other classmate will be doing everything else that we can. Now, before we start the business, we are required to do a Feasibility Analysis, of which i need some help on. I need to interview 10 target customers. I know zero people who ride dirtbikes, so i was wondering if some of you would be willing to answer a few questions.

1. How long does your local shop(s) generally take to do a valve repair?

2. What is the average rate charged for a valve repair?

3. What do you see as negative aspects of your local shop?

4. Would you be willing to trust high school students with your bike if they are willing to pay for all costs of a job done bad?

5. Would you take your bike to a group of high schoolers who will be able to complete the job in one to two days and charge less than a typical dealer?


thank you very much for your time.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

4. Would you be willing to trust high school students with your bike if they are willing to pay for all costs of a job done bad?

Are you out of your freakin mind? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You clearly have no idea of the level of complexity involved in what you are proposing. A job "done bad" can do thousands of dollars damage to an engine.

 

[cgibsong001]

Are you out of your freakin mind? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You clearly have no idea of the level of complexity involved in what you are proposing.

appreciate the reply, although you could've just filled out the interview i posted. we already have a first customer lined up which we will do the repair at no cost, aside from parts. The one kid in our group knows a lot about bikes and repairs. If the first customer goes well, he has agreed to spread the word to his racing buddies.
Please, if you could fill out the questions, i'd greatly appreciate it. If you're opinion is that we are crazy, put so- that is the purpose of a survey.

thank you very much.

EDIT: maybe when i said i have no clue about bikes you misunderstood. i will not be doing the repairs. please read above.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

If you're opinion is that we are crazy, put so- that is the purpose of a survey.

GEE, thanks for helping a dope like me understand the complexities of surveys. :whoa:

EDIT: maybe when i said i have no clue about bikes you misunderstood. i will not be doing the repairs. please read above.

I understood perfectly, the problem is you and your friends do not. There is plenty of half-assed four-stroke work going on in the motorcycle business already. The quota has been filled.

 

[cgibsong001]

GEE, thanks for helping a dope like me understand the complexities of surveys. :whoa:

thanks for for being a dick to a new member just looking for some help. you take the time to give stupid comments, when you could, instead of being a douche, answer the questions in the same amount of time. I hope that, in dealing with customers, i do not find out all dirt bike riders are like you.

 

[cgibsong001]

I understood perfectly, the problem is you and your friends do not. There is plenty of half-assed four-stroke work going on in the motorcycle business already. The quota has been filled.

we already have a willing first participant, so clearly not everyone has the same thoughts as you.

btw, it appears i can can just litter this forum will ******* comments, and become a moderator like you? Nice!

 

[Rich Rohrich]

The sad fact is, I'm one of the few people who :

(A) will tell you the unvarnished truth about this
(B) has the experience doing this type of work to actually understand the subject matter and all it's pitfalls
(C) don't care if I hurt your feelings if it helps keep more people from getting sucked into half-assed work by unqualified backyard "mechanics"

and last but not least (D) don't really care if you don't send me a christmas card because I was honest with you.

 

[BadgerMan]

1. I don't know but it took a couple weeks the last time I had a valve job done.....I sent my YZF's head to Eric/Rich.

2. I don't remember but it was much more reasonable than my local shop.

3. I don't trust the quality of their work and they charge too much.

4. Nope

5. Nope

 

[cgibsong001]

The sad fact is, I'm one of the few people who :

(A) will tell you the truth about this
(B) have the experience doing this type of work to actually understand the subject matter
(C) don't care if I hurt your feelings if it helps keep more people from getting sucked into half-assed work by unqualified backyard "mechanics"

and last but not least (D) don't really care if you don't send me a christmas card because I was honest with you.

once again, i understand your opinion. you could simply answer my questions with whatever your opinions are. we are not required to actually start a business for our project, but simply to come up with a business plan and end up at the point where we theoretically could start the business with our plans. we have talked with the teacher and we are deciding to go that extra step further and actually start our business. If we fail, we will most likely lose a bit of money, but it would still end up being a valuable experience for the future.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Mine is not an opinion, it's real information from someone who was doing this work before you were born.

That said, I'll play along.

As part of your "business plan" you'll need to check the pricing on a Serdi 100 valve station or the comparable Newen equipment. Minimum buy-in with tooling will be in the neighborhood of $30K. You have to do an awful lot of cylinder heads to cover that monthly nut.

Then you have to find a source for parts that will work with a group of high school kids with no credit and no experience. Even if you can find someone they aren't likely to give you much of a discount or any priority on your orders. If you can't get parts in a timely fashion you could be the best engine builder on earth and it won't matter. Your customer's engine will sit. If you are paying more than the average shop for the parts you'll have to charge more then they do as well. To stay competitive price wise you'll have to discount the labor.

The first engine that grenades from a dropped valve (and it WILL HAPPEN) will cost you upwards of $2500 assuming you can do all of the work yourself top rebuild it from the bottom up.

Then you need the proper permits to run a business, and insurance in case someone gets hurt or a customer's engine parts get stolen.

One last thing, if you plan on working in the motorcycle business you better grow a much thicker skin. Compared to the average customer you'll encounter I'll seem like just a "fluffy bunny". ;)

 

[cgibsong001]

1. I don't know but it took a couple weeks the last time I had a valve job done.....I sent my YZF's head to Eric/Rich.

2. I don't remember but it was much more reasonable than my local shop.

3. I don't trust the quality of their work and they charge too much.

4. Nope

5. Nope

thank you for your cooperation.

 

[IndyMX]

we already have a willing first participant, so clearly not everyone has the same thoughts as you.

btw, it appears i can can just litter this forum will ******* comments, and become a moderator like you? Nice!

Dude, you have no idea who you are talking to...

The guy you called a douche forgot more about motorcycles than you or any or your family & friends would ever hope to know in all of your lives.

He may not have the best manners when dealing with stupid questions, but I think he answered your question better than whoever it is at your school who is advising you on this venture did.

It's a dumb idea. No one in their right mind would ever take a race bike to a bunch of kids at a school to have it worked on.

The one moron who you claim you already have lined up, is just that. A moron.

Good luck, and have a happy thanksgiving!

 

[cgibsong001]

Dude, you have no idea who you are talking to...

The guy you called a douche forgot more about motorcycles than you or any or your family & friends would ever hope to know in all of your lives.

He may not have the best manners when dealing with stupid questions, but I think he answered your question better than whoever it is at your school who is advising you on this venture did.

It's a dumb idea. No one in their right mind would ever take a race bike to a bunch of kids at a school to have it worked on.

The one moron who you claim you already have lined up, is just that. A moron.

Good luck, and have a happy thanksgiving!

no matter how much he knows, does not matter. i asked simple questions that do not involve smart ass comments.

 

[cgibsong001]

Mine is not an opinion, it's real information from someone who was doing this work before you were born.

That said, I'll play along.

As part of your "business plan" you'll need to check the pricing on a Serdi 100 valve station or the comparable Newen equipment. Minimum buy-in with tooling will be in the neighborhood of $30K. You have to do an awful lot of cylinder heads to cover that monthly nut.

Then you have to find a source for parts that will work with a group of high school kids with no credit and no experience. Even if you can find someone they aren't likely to give you much of a discount or any priority on your orders. If you can't get parts in a timely fashion you could be the best engine builder on earth and it won't matter. Your customer's engine will sit. If you are paying more than the average shop for the parts you'll have to charge more then they do as well. To stay competitive price wise you'll have to discount the labor.

The first engine that grenades from a dropped valve (and it WILL HAPPEN) will cost you upwards of $2500 assuming you can do all of the work yourself top rebuild it from the bottom up.

Then you need the proper permits to run a business, and insurance in case someone gets hurt or a customer's engine parts get stolen.

http://www.dirtrider.com/tech/141_0409_honda_crf250_dirtbike_rebuild/index.html

this is the bike we will be working on, which does not require this fancy $30K equipment. customers will be supplying parts. We will be charging a very low rate. its school work, getting paid anything would be an upgrade to nothing...

 

[BadgerMan]

You need to understand who you are interacting with. Many of us are cantankerous old farts who have been wrenching and riding dirt bikes for decades. In addition, many of us remember how we butchered up our bikes as teenagers in vain attempts to squeeze another ride out of them. As a result, we would never bring our bikes (or parts there of) to a teenager, with little training, for repairs……even if said repairs were cheap or even free for that matter. Heck, I don’t even trust my local dealers (with one or two exceptions) to wrench on my bikes.

Please beware. The worst that can happen is not the failure of your “business” to make money. The worst that can happen is that you (or your “expert”) will destroy some customer’s engine which will require that you and your partners pay for it out of your pockets.

I have been “butchering” dirtbikes for over thirty years now and I still would not attempt a valve job without the proper tools and some training from someone like Rich. The cost of potential failure is too high for me.

All that said, I admire your spirit. :nod:

Hey Rich......I think my 450 needs a valve job.....can I borrow your Serdi? ;)

 

[Shaw520]

The worst that can happen is that you (or your “expert”) will destroy some customer’s engine which will require that you and your partners pay for it out of your pockets.

Actually, it could get worse... it may happen at the apex of an 80 ft double. :yikes:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

this is the bike we will be working on, which does not require this fancy $30K equipment.

WRONGO Junior!! A CRF250 and the current crop of high rpm MX engines are exactly the type of engines that require a Serdi machine or the equivalent to cut the valves seats concentric with the valve guides. At 13,500 rpm .002" of excess runout on the seat is the difference between valves lasting 10 hours or 100 hours. Worst case if the seat is bad enough the valve head can break off and drop into the engine.

Ask anyone who owned and RMZ250 with bad seats from the factory how much fun that is.

Actually, it could get worse... it may happen at the apex of an 80 ft double. :yikes:

Shaw - Even after 30 years of doing this stuff, that thought still keeps me awake at night. Eric has always made fun of me for how slow and anal I am when working on the critical stuff like cylinder heads.

I'm not going to let anyone get hurt as a result of MY work. :cool:

 

[BadgerMan]

Actually, it could get worse... it may happen at the apex of an 80 ft double. :yikes:

Not if I am riding the bike since my wheels don't leave the ground, LOL!

Good point.

 

[cgibsong001]

i will talk to my partners, but i don't understand why that page says that you don't need one of them, yet you do. ?

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

The world is plenty full of fool's with tools. You can take a stock honda bent valve, straighten it in a vise and the motor will work, to some degree! To do the job properly takes years of training and the above machine, and a few more! Some old school machine shop tolls would do, and a machinist! A seasoned certified motorcycle mechanic would be a must. And so where do you stand? When I was in machine shop, I hacked up my own stuff, but for school I made a hammer, now its start a fortune 500 company in 2 years!

 

[Rich Rohrich]

i will talk to my partners, but i don't understand why that page says that you don't need one of them,

You have to consider the source. Karel Kramer is a journalist not a mechanic or a tuner. It's unlikely he has ever done any of this type of work himself, and he for sure doesn't do it for a living.

With enough experience you could cut the valves seats with a manual set of carbide seat tools that run in the $1500-$2000 range. The problem is, you have to cut a LOT of seats by hand before you can do it right consistently with these manual tools on these tiny valves that are used in late model engines.

The big machines are designed to help make the job much more precise , repeatable and hopefully less operator experience dependent.

 

[IndyMX]

i will talk to my partners, but i don't understand why that page says that you don't need one of them, yet you do. ?

If you do 5 minutes worth of research on Rich, you will come to understand why that Magazine is wrong.

BTW, Dirtrider.net and Dirtrider.com are not one in the same. Don't assume that anyone here will support what is said over there.

Read some of his articles and threads on here, soon you will realize the err of your ways.

 

[oldguy]

1. How long does your local shop(s) generally take to do a valve repair?

2. What is the average rate charged for a valve repair?

3. What do you see as negative aspects of your local shop?

4. Would you be willing to trust high school students with your bike if they are willing to pay for all costs of a job done bad?

5. Would you take your bike to a group of high schoolers who will be able to complete the job in one to two days and charge less than a typical dealer?


thank you very much for your time.

1) I have no clue because only 2 people will ever touch the head on any of my son's racebikes- the man you so cordially call a douche- Rich and Eric Gorr
2) no idea as each job is an indivual job. There is no such thing in my experiance as a typical job
3) takes to long for a questionable quality job
4)absolutely not. Never would I risk my son's safety on his bike to save a few dollars
5)again absolutely not see answer 4

As Rich said (and if you have any clue you will listen to him respectfully and shut your wiseass yap) these engines are not your typical lawn mower power plant and with the risks involved you had better dam well know what you are doing before you rip into one.

 

[truespode]

1. How long does your local shop(s) generally take to do a valve repair?

Have no clue b/c I send my major engine work to Rich and Eric. Turn around time is dependent on the amount of customers ahead of me.

2. What is the average rate charged for a valve repair?

Depends on the type of repair. Replacing a valve? Cutting seats? Replacing spring? What about cam issues?

3. What do you see as negative aspects of your local shop?

Nothing because I take the work to them that they are specialized in and take the rest to others who are specialized in what they do.

Honestly, a better business idea would be for you guys to do a business on supplying rims and lacing the rims for a fee. It is something that you can get in cheaply and learn to do on your own without putting other peoples lives at stake (engine failure over any size double is life threatening).

4. Would you be willing to trust high school students with your bike if they are willing to pay for all costs of a job done bad?

I'm torn... I'm somewhere in the middle of NO and HELL NO.

5. Would you take your bike to a group of high schoolers who will be able to complete the job in one to two days and charge less than a typical dealer?

Not a chance in hell. Especially if they have the poor attitude that you have shown in this thread by refusing to listen to those that have more experience and knowledge than you.

The first part of doing a business plan is understanding the business you are trying to enter... you obviously do not understand the business well enough to consider it.

Granted you are in high school so it is to be expected that you wouldn't have a full grasp on what it would actually take but being more humble would get you better results.

Good luck with your project.

Ivan

 

[DougRoost]

1. How long does your local shop(s) generally take to do a valve repair?

Have no clue b/c I send my major engine work to Rich and Eric. Turn around time is dependent on the amount of customers ahead of me.

2. What is the average rate charged for a valve repair?

Depends on the type of repair. Replacing a valve? Cutting seats? Replacing spring? What about cam issues?

3. What do you see as negative aspects of your local shop?

Nothing because I take the work to them that they are specialized in and take the rest to others who are specialized in what they do.

Honestly, a better business idea would be for you guys to do a business on supplying rims and lacing the rims for a fee. It is something that you can get in cheaply and learn to do on your own without putting other peoples lives at stake (engine failure over any size double is life threatening).

4. Would you be willing to trust high school students with your bike if they are willing to pay for all costs of a job done bad?

I'm torn... I'm somewhere in the middle of NO and HELL NO.

5. Would you take your bike to a group of high schoolers who will be able to complete the job in one to two days and charge less than a typical dealer?

Not a chance in hell. Especially if they have the poor attitude that you have shown in this thread by refusing to listen to those that have more experience and knowledge than you.

The first part of doing a business plan is understanding the business you are trying to enter... you obviously do not understand the business well enough to consider it.

Granted you are in high school so it is to be expected that you wouldn't have a full grasp on what it would actually take but being more humble would get you better results.

Good luck with your project.

Ivan

Ditto....I couldn't have said it better so I won't. Like the above, Rich and Eric are the only ones I trust with my stuff because I've seen some really bad work by supposed motorcycle mechanics. Keep in mind safety -- which can mean not grenading on the face of a 35' jump or simply getting back to the truck at the end of a 60 mile+ trail ride -- is not to be underestimated. Go back and read some of the previous posts about insurance and equipment, then change that plan to lacing up new wheels.

Here's a bonus -- many dual sport riders buy bikes with odd sized wheels they can't get decent dirt tires for (17" rears, 19" front, etc.) They need 18"/21" wheels and will pay to get them. Likewise, many dirt guys want to add a second set of supermoto rims for occasional street or supermoto races (17"). Hence the above sage advice.