No Marquett National?..

Smit-Dog · Oct 17, 2006

Very disappointed to hear that....

BTW, did the club receive the event feedback that was collected on the AMA enduro site? Or was this only for AMA officials?

http://home.ama-cycle.org/raceresults/typeindex.asp?s=12&year=2006

UP Magoo · Oct 17, 2006

I called the AMA to get copies of the feedback they've received for our enduro. Evidently this is not usually shared with the club, but since we asked for it, they will send us copies.
It should be interesting to see....

I really encourage anyone to send their thoughts about ANY event they ride to the event promoter. Positive feedback is always nice, but real (constructive) ideas are what really help to improve events from year to year.

I'm kinda with Nick regarding the future of our event. It's ton of work to put these events on. Participation is dwindling and our event has a bit of a "reputation." :think: With a throw-out, I'll bet that ours is the one most would drop. Our National had the largest purse of any National Enduro this year, was run under the "new" format, etc, and we only had 137 riders. We lost a ton of money. It's not all about money, but I'd bet we'll be well under 100 riders if we do an event next year -- hardly worth the effort.

I think it'd be fun to just ride, take advantage of others efforts, tell them what I think, and go home (like the majority do).

Fred T · Oct 17, 2006

Sadly I agree that attendance will probably drop.

FlyinRyan · Oct 17, 2006

Shorten it up, make it fun, and make it a timekeeper! Just don't stop having it, can't stand to see another event disappear! Even if you've got to run a 25-30 mile loop twice (so it's easier on the club), one at 18mph one at 24mph it would be better then not having it at all in my eyes. Advertise that it's going to fun and the riders will come back I hope.

2TrakR · Oct 17, 2006

Maybe partner with another club and make it a trail ride or a dual sport with some hard-core hero sections. Take a lot of the burden and cost off of the local club. I might know a club interested in helping.
Like others have said, it'd really suck to lose another quality event.

bbarel · Oct 17, 2006

UP Magoo said:
we only had 137 riders.We lost a ton of money.

Man that stinks.

I wonder how many more riders would come if non-racers could trail ride the C course after the racers. Lower their price and no checks or awards for them. Maybe the event can be enduro AND CCC ride.

I wonder if there are creative ways for awards reduce cost and hassle. Maybe gift certificates. Maybe one plaque for the ENTIRE season and you fill it in with brass plates from each race. Maybe only Grand Champ and top 3 A,B,C riders get trophies.

I am in it for the ride. I hate to see the events go away because of too much work and $$ for the clubs.

KTM Mike · Oct 17, 2006

As most of you know, I am miles from "competitive" with enduros - I am totally in it for the fun (abuse?). I have only missed one Moose since my first enduro in 01 - and would plan to keep on going. FWIW - I thought you guys had it nailed for the C riders this year. I rode some of the same trail just last weekend - had a blast! (at a bit slower enjoy the scenery pace makes it a radically different experience though!)

I think Bretts suggestion on somehow a creative combo with a CCC event is a great idea? Great way to expose people to enduro's and maybe have them move into the sport?

fatherandson · Oct 17, 2006

Michigan and D14 can not afford to lose a District or Family event.

I hope you guys reconsider.

nzambon · Oct 18, 2006

Why still put on a enduro when its the same amount of work wether its a national or district only. The whiners still whine our 3 months of work are still there and we lose money. To here the same thing to far to drive, too hard, Etc, Etc. When we can clean bass lake, forest island, and make a ton of money

PoeBrian · Oct 18, 2006

Nzambon,
I would be curious to know what number of entries you need to make it worth your effort? I see that from 2002-2005 you cleared over 200 entries. Is it possible 2006 was just a fluke? I see from a previous thread that the JPine also only had 137 entries. I would hope they would continue their yearly effort.

I think the positives that come out of the Mini-Moose are a key element in the future growth of enduro's as I think there are just a few family races on the schedule.

I wonder what the stats are for the Mini-Moose entry numbers! Did they decline also?

I hope that the Sandstormers would at least try 1 more year to see if the trend continues! I understand you must be pretty frustrated with the AMA for rejecting the App. but there are alot of racers that still want to come race at your race!

Hopefully "The Sandstormers" will take a compete look at all the positives and negatives before rejecting the idea of a district race. Maybe it could be put back on the schedule in the future if the perception of the race could be altered a bit!

Smit-Dog · Oct 18, 2006

PoeBrian said:
...I wonder what the stats are for the Mini-Moose entry numbers! Did they decline also?

Mini Moose Counts:
63 - 2004
62 - 2005
86 - 2006

2006 D-14 Event Counts
246 - Sand Goblin
117 - TreeTopper
137 - Loose Moose
137 - Jack Pine
226 - Harrison
175 - Summer Bummer
181 - Upland

*According to my records

2TrakR · Oct 18, 2006

Ooooh, numbers! Those are fun. We had funky turnouts at many of our events this year. No rhyme or reason has been determined. Overall down about 15-25% but that trend started when gas went above $2/gallon a couple years back. Some events were way up, some were done considerably, some stayed the same.
Anyway, I see two things from SmitDog's numbers:
1. FES turn out was UP and tells me that's a popular item. The number I read somewhere 'bout the FES event in May drove the point home (200?). This is an important event/series and should be continued. Lot's of Mini-Moose fans will think twice if there's no ride for them on Sunday. Put on the Mini and follow that with SOMETHING on Sunday.

2. Why are there such differences between Harrison/Goblin and the other events? What made them so much more popular? More riders in Indiana?

Smit-Dog · Oct 18, 2006

Population-wise there are many more riders within a 4 hour drive of Harrison and the Indiana events. But I'd rather drive 8 hours to Marquette than 4 hours to Roselawn.

Sand Goblin is the season opener... lots of riders anxious after a long winter.

It was the first year for the Treetopper.... word will spread and this will grow.

Low turnout for JP.... No idea why, as it's a very well known and popular event. Heck, there were 186 riders on Saturday for the Pine Cone.

morgan · Oct 18, 2006

Maybe the event can be enduro AND CCC ride.

Good thought but I'm pretty sure the CCC has a policy against any events including competition/racing.

Keep the ideas coming!

2TrakR · Oct 18, 2006

Very true - it either would not be a CCC ride or would not be an enduro (for Sunday). Since CCC rides require CCC membership, I'd doubt many AMA "only" members would be interested in joining the CCC for a Sunday ride after being an AMA rider on Saturday for the MiniMoose.
There are CCC affiliated clubs that are also AMA clubs and could then provide the help but just be under the AMA banner along side SandStormers..

UP Magoo · Oct 19, 2006

Response from AMA regarding rider feedback they've received about the Loose Moose:

I went back through my archived rider feedback event forms and could not find any for your National Enduro.

Hmmm... :think:

I wouldn't look for a trail ride event. Since our riding area is all private land, and we sign an agreement about our use of the land, we need to be very careful about general riding activities -- especially regarding the creation of maps, GPS logs, etc of the riding area. We will lose our permission to use this land if anything like this is ever created. With a trail ride situation, I'd bet that there would be a slew of GPS's being used... :yikes:

I agree it'd be a shame to lose this (or any event), but it just seems that there isn't enough rider interest for us to continue with the LM. The Sandstormers has been proud to put on a quality event over the years, yet it seems our efforts don't yield adequate rider turnout. :bang:

We are discussing our various options; for what it's worth, IMO, if we water it down, we destroy the great tradition of the LM and become just like everyone else. I want it to remain the true Enduro Test it has the reputation of being -- if you want a sissy race, go GNCC or HareScrambles. Last Man Standing, Erzberg, Gussy's Moose Run, Las Vegas EnduroCross are known and defined to be tough races --> the Loose Moose should continue to be proud to offer a challenge to man and machine.

Smit-Dog · Oct 19, 2006

UP Magoo said:
Response from AMA regarding rider feedback they've received about the Loose Moose: Hmmm... :think:

AMA said:

I went back through my archived rider feedback event forms and could not find any for your National Enduro.

Click to expand...

Well that sucks! I submitted comments / feedback on the LM as well as Harrison and Upland.

So the official reason provided by the AMA for denying the LM application is that "it's too tough"? If so, then how and from whom did they receive this feedback? Via phone calls and letters?

And are the main reasons for not hosting a LM for '07 the fact that it's not a national and/or the club will lose money? If being able to at least break-even is a primary factor, consider raising the entry fee. In the overall cost of attending this event, another $10-$15 per rider shouldn't be that big of a deal (unless the club didn't even come close to breaking even). The whole financial aspect is none of my business, I'd just like to see the LM continue in it's current form and tradition.

FlyinRyan · Oct 19, 2006

It can still be tough but fun. Grand Rapids, MN does about 70 ground miles and is all off road, makes you tired at the end but when your done you've got a huge smile on your face. They run 7 10 mile sections, it's a great event. I think that's how the Loose Moose should be too. Run 10 mile sections so that the C's could do 50 miles, the B's would do 60, and the A / AA's do 70. With the terrian you guys have that would wear everyone out but not kill them.

As for the tough races you mentioned I love them all that I've ridden. The LMS was a challange but out of 200 riders invited only 88 of us were dumb enough to show up and at the Moose Run this year I bet there were less then 100 riders. These are one off events that people do for the challange, not in a series that people are racing. What I'm getting at is people don't like that much of a challange anymore. People want to be challanged but also want to finish.

Of course these are all my opinions and I'm just another local racer that doesn't want to see another event gone as I've seen to many disappear.

UP Magoo · Oct 19, 2006

Smit-Dog, no specific reason has been given by the AMA as to why weren't granted a National for next year. The person I spoke to at AMA indicated that it "didn't fit into the schedule..." Any other reasons that are being bantered about are pure speculation.
I agree with Ryan; it's the District guys that think its too tough -- they just don't want a difficult trail. The LM was 48 miles for B riders (4 sections) and 65 miles for A riders (5 sections) -- the longest section was 16.5 miles (the one everyone hated), and the shortest was either 11 (for A) or 7 (for B). We *thought* the sections were maneageable, especially with the VERY generous resets (no rider was late going in because of inadequate rest!).
BTW, every C rider I've spoken to loved the course this year -- they rode 32 miles (3 sections) -- maybe we'll just have everyone ride the C course and call it good?

Wolverine423 · Oct 19, 2006

Well Magoo you can chalk me up as one of the riders that really liked the 16.5 section! I also like the 1st A-AA section too! As a matter of fact I was dig'n the whole thing right up to the mountain then the fun factor went south and I had to go to work! You know what I mean......

I too hate to see your club drop the LM. As far as singling people out and calling others sissy’s over & over & over that are not quite up for the challenge that your club offers is completely out of line and pretty much bullsh it! Not a very diplomatic way to encourage new riders to support your enduro or to get the seasoned riders to come back. FWIW most all of the riders that sign up at these enduro events have families to support & jobs to go to on Monday....Maybe that’s why the majority nowadays prefer the so called easies....I can't hold that against a fella.

DW

tdunn976 · Oct 19, 2006

nzambon and magoo,
As D-14 enduro Chair I do not want to see you go away and hope you will reconcider and run another event. The LM to me has been always a challenge. I believe that the hard core riders that were used to the extremely hard endurance rides have either retired or are now our seniors and super seniors that truly do not want to be that beat up on monday when they go back to work, there is a family to support and a kid or 2 in college we are paying for. The younger guys were not brought up in that tough environment and will do something else if we are too hard on them.
I also believe that the LM can still be a tough technical run without the ( I want this not to sound negative and please do not take it as such.)brutality factor, We had people win their class without finishing and a d-14 A rider take a 4th without running more then the first section. From my feed back everyone had a good time in the C section and if the B had of been broken either in half or a good reset and then continue to the finish I think that people would of been happier.
Look at the other Nationals and the dropping to 65 miles, we just aren't as tough as we used to be.
I want badly to keep you guys and will help how I can, I laid out 3 enduros this year and do understand the work involved, (I wasn't home any weekend from feb to july)
Long and short of it we want and need any club still willing to bust their ass to keep enduros alive in Michigan.

Fred T · Oct 19, 2006

:clue:

It can still be tough but fun..

:clue:

FWIW most all of the riders that sign up at these enduro events have families to support & jobs to go to on Monday....Maybe that’s why the majority nowadays prefer the so called easies....I can't hold that against a fella.

:clue:

From my feed back everyone had a good time in the C section and if the B had of been broken either in half or a good reset and then continue to the finish I think that people would of been happier..

Keep in mind who the "customer" is and stay in business.

bbarel · Oct 19, 2006

UP Magoo said:
Last Man Standing, Erzberg, Gussy's Moose Run, Las Vegas EnduroCross are known and defined to be tough races --> the Loose Moose should continue to be proud to offer a challenge to man and machine.

Those races are not for the masses. Challenge is a relative term depending on skill level.

salgeek · Oct 19, 2006

morgan said:
Good thought but I'm pretty sure the CCC has a policy against any events including competition/racing.

Keep the ideas coming!

true... Policy doc item #14 No cycle conservation club event shall include racing competition.

maybe this could be changed(?an insurance thing?) heck the CCC constitution was changed without the membership being aware to include numerous inclusions of ATV's :p .

salgeek · Oct 19, 2006

UP Magoo said:
Response from AMA regarding rider feedback they've received about the Loose Moose: Hmmm... :think:

BS - I filled out the form for every National I rode in this year. They got feed back. And it was nothing - I repeat NOTHING but HIGH PRAISE for the LM.

No Marquett National?..

Smit-Dog

UP Magoo

Fred T

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FlyinRyan

2TrakR

bbarel

KTM Mike

fatherandson

nzambon

PoeBrian

Smit-Dog

2TrakR

Smit-Dog

morgan

2TrakR

UP Magoo

Smit-Dog

FlyinRyan

UP Magoo

Wolverine423

tdunn976

Fred T

bbarel

salgeek

salgeek

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