No Marquett National?..

bbarel · Oct 19, 2006

Yep nice job AMA handling the feedback. More evidence they care nothing about off-road. They just want our annual fees to spend on fighting helmet laws. I would love for the off-roaders to break away from the AMA.

Magoo · Oct 19, 2006

W423, I don't believe I singled anyone out, nor did I call anyone a sissy. I was intending to emphasize my individual opinion about maintaining the "flavor" of the LM. Sorry it is being mis-construed as calling people names.
I'm right in the upper-middle of the age spread we seem to be referring to here (46), and I've a job that requires I come back in one piece, too. I hear what you're saying, I just have a different opinion. I differ in that I look at a challenge as an obstacle to be conquered; something that will test my skills and knowledge, and ultimately make me a better rider. ( heh, what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger...!) I won't get a trophy for being the fastest or the prettiest, but the personal satisfaction from the accomplishment will be my reward.
Thanks, Tom and Ryan, for your specific ideas to help us to put on a better event. These are what we need to put on an event that will attract more riders. I think everyone agrees we've made progress from last year to this year -- I'd think we could build on that.

Magoo · Oct 19, 2006

salgeek said:
BS - I filled out the form for every National I rode in this year. They got feed back. And it was nothing - I repeat NOTHING but HIGH PRAISE for the LM.

I copied the response directly from the email I received from the AMA (from someone in AMA Sports Dept, specifically from someone involved with Enduro).

salgeek · Oct 19, 2006

Magoo - I didn't doubt you for one second. :cool:

Smit-Dog · Oct 19, 2006

I believe the BS comment was directed at the AMA for the "missing" feedback.

INCA · Oct 20, 2006

My guess on the AMA scheduling would be that the LM has been the same weekend as the AMA Vintage Days for several years. Both have been the middle of July and this year both went to the end of July. The Loretta Lynns motocross was also the same weekend. A fine job of the AMA spreading out the attendence.

Wolverine423 · Oct 20, 2006

Magoo said:
W423, I don't believe I singled anyone out, nor did I call anyone a sissy. I was intending to emphasize my individual opinion about maintaining the "flavor" of the LM. Sorry it is being mis-construed as calling people names.
QUOTE]

Nothing is being mis-construed here it’s pretty obvious what I'm talking about! No you haven’t directly singled out or name called but a certain club member has and that reflects on the club in general. I know you’re intelligent enough to know what I'm talking about. Check out the previous past posts here on MTR and you will find what I am referring to.

DW

RIDDICK546 · Oct 20, 2006

Mr Dunn,
Being Younger And New To The Sport I Resent Your Comment That Younger Riders May Not Be As Tough Or Up To The Challenge. My Thought On Th Lm Had Nothing To Do With Being Too Challenging, It Involved The Placement Of The Section With All Rocks. Placing This Section Toward The Tail End Of The Race Was The Problem. I Don't Care Who You Are You Get Tired Out There At Some Point, And At That Point Of Being Tired You Can Make More Mistakes, And Making Mistakes On The Rocks Is Flat Out Dangerous. A Lot Of Us Can Take Our Lickings And Move On, I Know I Have. But Smashing You Body Of Those Rocks And Risking Broken Bones Or Worse Is Not Worth It. Ther Is A Big Difference From Falling On The Ground As Too On A Rock. This Is My First Year Of Really Racing Enduros But I Wasn't Sitting On A Rock Wodering What The Hell I Was Doing This For With C Riders, It Was With A And Aa Riders Also. With Some It May Be Toughness But With Others It Was The Risks Involved. Take The Toughness Right Out Of It. If You Think You You Were Tougher For Finishing Most Likely You Didn't Experience Any Hard Hit Mistakes Or You Have More Experience Than Most. Some Just Don't Have The Balls To Admit It. At Some Point Everyone Is Going To Complain About Something At A Race, This Particular One Had More Than Most. The Responses From The Club Weren't Sympathetic To The Rider "customer" Yet We Didn't See Them Experience The Trail In A Race Situation.

Tough. Most Don't Even Know What That Means.

UP Magoo · Oct 20, 2006

Riddick-
FYI, we put the hardest section at the beginning of the race the previous year, and we had even more complaints.
IMO, bottom-line, its the rocks that freak everyone out, regardless of when they are during the race.

RIDDICK546 · Oct 20, 2006

Freaks You Out. Well Put. It Was My First Time Riding Rocks Like That, To Me It Wasn't The Rocks Themselves It Was Tired Mistakes I Made At That Point. I Thought Everything Else About The Race Was Great Didn't Think There Was Anything Difficult About It. Just The Damn Rocks!!!!!! Who Knows Maybe You Get Use To Them After A While. I Think There Was Too Many. The First 20 Were Fun, The Next 20 Weren't.

bbarel · Oct 20, 2006

Yep most are not experienced in rocks and hills with rocks on them. Maybe we need to have a pre-enduro rocks and hills training ride in the spring, after all the snow melts that is.

tdunn976 · Oct 20, 2006

I was not saying that the old guys were tougher then they're younger counter parts, I was explaining that in the past enduros were just that endurance races many of them 2 day 200 milers. Some more.The riders that approached me after the events made the comments that they could do other things. I too get freaked by the rocks psychologically it damn near paralyzes me and does make me do dumb things.
I believe that the terrien up there is awesome and an event can still be run without putting a rider through any great risks and want to continue to see that an event is put on by the up sandstormers. I'm not trying to provoke anyone just do not want to lose another enduro in our State.

PoeBrian · Oct 20, 2006

Personally, I think this "Great Risk" can be looked in different ways. What's dangerous to 1 person is not necessarily risky or dangerous to another. I personally love more technical riding the rocks present. I do not find them to be a risk at all. I do find enduro's that are very fast and more high speed to be scarier and more dangerous to me. I am not as good at "holding the throttle wide open as long as you can" type races as I also have a family at home and my own business to run. There are just as many or more crashes and injuries in open higher speed less technical race trails. The concern for safety is just as critical in races where there are no rocks!

Where do you stop? Take all the Logs out of Roselawn? or Take all the River crossings out of Upland? or maybe make sure all the angled, off camber roots have been removed from the every race trail?

I guess we start by taking the Moon Rocks out of Marquette!

salgeek · Oct 20, 2006

Smit-Dog said:
I believe the BS comment was directed at the AMA for the "missing" feedback.

Yes it was - thanks Smit-Dog.

salgeek · Oct 20, 2006

RIDDICK546 said:
Freaks You Out. Well Put. It Was My First Time Riding Rocks Like That, To Me It Wasn't The Rocks Themselves It Was Tired Mistakes I Made At That Point. I Thought Everything Else About The Race Was Great Didn't Think There Was Anything Difficult About It. Just The Damn Rocks!!!!!! Who Knows Maybe You Get Use To Them After A While. I Think There Was Too Many. The First 20 Were Fun, The Next 20 Weren't.

They freaked me out the first time('05). Adding to the difficulty was the extreme temps. This year I enjoyed the challenge. I'm not sure I could have handled the mountain and the rocks this year, but then again I'm just an old duffer.

nate_z · Oct 22, 2006

I've enjoyed the discussion on the Marquette enduro and for what its worth, here is my opinion. First off, even though I am young (23) I have ridden all types of enduros across the midwest. The terrain in marquette is unique to the area and is the amount of variety is completely different than anywhere else. When riders are unfamiliar with the terrain, they make mistakes, complain and blame others for laying out a crappy course. I remember racing the Upland enduro in 99 and riding on wet clay and catching my finger on a barb wire fence laying on the trail and tearing it off...That was pretty much my first time riding wet clay and I was mad at the club but bottom line was I didn't know what i was doing and it was different from what i was used to.

Fortunately, the LM will never be sugar sand whoops and will always present a challenge. Hills, rocks and other unique obstacles make the event what it is. Suggestions for an easier race have been made and have been implemented each year , this year the C riders only raced 32 miles last year...If I was a C rider, I'd be kind of disappointed.

The bottom line is riders need to support their series by attending events the clubs put on. Failure to do so is only going to cause more clubs to stop putting on enduros.

Nate

fatherandson · Oct 23, 2006

Nate, good points and very well written. Some in our society do look for ways to blame others - I work in insurance I see it everyday. The Loose Moose does offer some unique challenges - part of the attraction to make the trip.

I was very happy that the club implemented some suggestions made last year. I did not hear any of the C riders complaining about the short course. Many of them were pleased to finally finish the LM without houring out. The terrain is very difficult for most people - a shorter event will not take away from the challenge. I have made this suggestion already (maybe not on DRN), but I feel the last B section and the final A/AA section could have been shorter. These sections were VERY challenging. You can take points from the riders, but still give them the satisfaction of finishing within their hour. To ride through the final check, but be scored as a DNF has a significant impact on the opinion of an event.

As a promoter of other events, we need the riders to continue to support the enduros AND bring a friend!

I really hope the Sandstormers continue their tradition of the Mini Moose and Loose Moose events!

Smit-Dog · Oct 23, 2006

The '06 event was a huge improvement over years past... the club listened to rider feedback and made changes. A lot of riders from previous LMs may not have showed up for '06 based on past event experiences, but they missed out. I hope word spreads and they return next year.

Nate Z - As far as being disappointed as a C rider.... As a A rider yourself, it may be hard to relate / remember what a C rider goes through riding LM terrain for the first time. A lot of these guys are new to enduros and not at all experienced riding difficult, technical terrain for 5 hours. Give them a taste of the terrain along with the satisfaction of finishing the event. If you burn them out before they've had a chance for some small personal victories, they may not come back to LM or enduros at all. I think the intent of the C class is to learn the sport, improve riding skills, build endurance, get hooked, and is stepping stone to the B class. If a C rider feels cheated or disappointed, then they know it's time to move up a class.

I took another C rider with me last year to their first enduro (Wolverine / Harrison). This guy was a self-proclaimed "fast trail rider" (and Navy SEAL!). When signing up, he was feeling a little cheated that he had less trail to ride than the A & B guys. I told him not to worry, and after the C-course if he felt up to it, he could ride it a second time. :) Needless to say, he was quite humbled, and very happy to finish and not ride anymore that day.

(BTW, well written and thought-out response... who says the pastie doesn't fall far off the truck...)

If the club does decide to host an event next year, I'll do my best to help promote it and encourage other riders to attend. Heck, offer a reduced fee / free t-shirt for first-time LM riders as an incentive to try it out. Or put naked women in the woods.

UP Magoo · Oct 23, 2006

Smit-Dog said:
Or put naked women in the woods.

Given the, ummm, local selection possibilities (Big Bon's?), I'm not too sure that would be an attraction... :yikes:

Fred T · Oct 23, 2006

UP Magoo said:
Given the, ummm, local selection possibilities (Big Bon's?), I'm not too sure that would be an attraction... :yikes:

I'm sure what ever you can find would be better than naked old men. :yikes: eeeeew. (Roselawn II)

fatherandson · Oct 23, 2006

Probably would need to be women of the troll variety to provide an attraction. I am sure that Scottyb and CodyD could provide some assistance.

FlyinRyan · Oct 23, 2006

Nate, I remember the ripped off finger incident. I saw you coming out of the woods looking to get back and I remember how pissed you were at the time too at anyone in sight. I think you are right on track though, the LM is an event that is different then the norm in the midwest. I've always liked the LM and thought it was a good event as it was different. I've offered my suggestions on making it better on this board and in person to some of the club members. As a enduro chairman I know what it's like to hear good and bad feedback, and I hope my feedback has been helpful.

Nate also hit on a good point, riders need to support clubs to keep enduros going. Without postive support for clubs they will quit putting on events, no one wants that.

And please no local "talent" from the UP should be put in the woods without clothes!

tdunn976 · Oct 23, 2006

Give me an event in 2007 and I be damn sure to try to bring people back, I have read great comments and thoughts about LM and do not want to see it go. I believe we are progressing in our understanding of a very unique area to ride.
Thank you Magoo and all

Steve St.Laurent · Oct 23, 2006

I started trail riding this year and will start riding enduros next year. I've heard the stories about the difficulty of the LM event and I for one am looking forward to hopefully run it. So count me in for 1 new rider that hasn't ridden an enduro yet being there. A friend is going to start with me as well so you can probably chalk up two newbie riders.

katoom125 · Oct 24, 2006

Steve St.Laurent said:
I started trail riding this year and will start riding enduros next year. I've heard the stories about the difficulty of the LM event and I for one am looking forward to hopefully run it. So count me in for 1 new rider that hasn't ridden an enduro yet being there. A friend is going to start with me as well so you can probably chalk up two newbie riders.

and you'll have the time of your life too.
so how's the thumb doing? you about ready to ride again?

No Marquett National?..

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