clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
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Since switching over to Notoil we just had our second top end seizure in 6 months. Besides switching to Notoil I believe our routine hasn't changed. Are we alone?

I like the ease of cleaning, but these $600 bills are getting out of hand!
 

Anssi

Member
May 20, 2001
870
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I see little possibility of the quality of the air filter oil causing top-end seizures. Crapped out big-end bearings from dust and sand getting through, yes. Ring damage from the same, possibly.

I would look at other causes, too (clogged jets, air leaks).
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Crapped out big-end bearings from dust and sand getting through, yes.

Both engines had beat crank bearings, the last bike only had 15 hours on the motor. My thoughts are that if you are racing in standing water and mud conditions the Notoil filter lets a lot of this through the filter. In the past (over 10 years of riding), using petroleum based filter oils, I never lost crank bearings. Plus, upon disassembly both pistons showed sand damage on the intake sides of the piston. I think it (Notoil) is probably best when used in dusty conditions but not if it's wet.
 

Lemming

Looking for single women!
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 19, 2000
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I've been using No Toil for more than a year and love the stuff. No problems so far. I do change my airfilter after every ride to be on the safe side. And yes, we have a lot of standing water and mud in AL, not to mention a lot of dust at times.
 

reynome

Member
Sep 1, 1999
143
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I too have been using No Toil for over a year and have not had any probs. At first I wasnt putting enough oil on the filter and did see some dust get thru the dry spots but now I saturate the filters and have had great results in not getting any dust by the filter.

When I wash my bike I have occasonally sprayed up the the air box and after changing the filter shortly there after I did notice it pushed dirt thru the filter. You may have something there when riding thru very wet conditions. If I rode in those conditions I would probably take a old filter and cut it up and using the old type filter oil on those pieces put them over any vents in your air box. That would take care of any major splashing. If you still have a problem you better switch to submarines. :)
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
I'll do a test!

In the next day or two I'll take a Notoil treated filter and a Maxima FFT treated filter and run water over them to see if there's a difference. I'll post the results.

I, too, have been a big fan of Notoil for over a year, but that may change.

I've noticed that the boot is actually pretty clean even after contamination has passed. I wonder if the Notoil product is breaking down from carb fogging or something. The cage will have some sand, mud or dirt caught in the webbing. It really shows up on a white filter cage.

I'll pick up some FFT Friday and test.
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Doubtful

I first wipe down the frame rails and upper airbox. Pull dirty filter off to the rear and then inspect with a light looking down the airboot. Wipe the upper frame rails again, and then install the new filter. Same as I've been doing for a long time.

The webbing is dirty on the cage, so most of the dirt is getting by.
 
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BRush

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 5, 2000
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So far so good with No-Toil. I switched this year and have been pretty careful about inspecting the inside of the boot and filter at each change for anything passing though. Clean as a whistle.
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Yes, Yes

There's always a coating of grease on the sealing edge.

Again, the inside of the airboot has always looked clean. I find , after a muddy/water splashing ride, some dirt on the cage, but the boot and inside of the filter always look clean. After the second breakdown I was told by the mechanic that a lot of contaminates went through the motor, I didn't believe him till I saw the cylinder and piston damage.

I even suspected that possibly the boot was damaged or loose allowing unfiltered air (and Dirt) an unfiltered path to the motor, but upon inspection didn't find anything wrong. So I'm baffled. Like I said before, the only change I've made in chemicals or much anything was to start using Notoil last year so it's my suspect.

What's baffling is that years ago we had some real enduros. You know the kind where you get stuck up to the seat, cross repeated deep water and in general abuse the bike. Never had a problem then. Of course the airboxes of that era only took in air through the top. Todays airboxes have drains that are big enough to put 3 fingers in without a one-way valve. They aren't designed for torture runs.

Maybe it's just my turn to have some bad luck. Thanks for all the responses.
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Bikes?

1. 2000 YZ250 w/Notoil filter
2. 2001 Gas Gas 250 w/ Notoil filter

Do any National riders (or Pros) use Notoil?
 

HiG4s

~SPONSOR~
Mar 7, 2001
1,311
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I haven't had any problems using No-Toil on the Husqvarna or the XR100 (the yz is too new, haven't had to clean the filter yet) but both are using stock factory filters.

Is any one else here using No-Toil filters? Could this be the problem? I just ordered one for my Husky.
 

smb_racing

Master of None
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 31, 2000
2,085
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I've been running no-toil filter and oil for a year now, no problems at all on my 1993 KDX. Did you get water up into your airbox at any point during the time you've used no-toil? There is nothing that will stop water from getting into the motor if it gets into the airbox. So the test of running water over the filters isn't really an accurate test in my opinion, no kind of filter oil is going to form a barrier to keep water from going through the filter.
 

oldguy

Always Broken
Dec 26, 1999
9,419
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We run no toil oil and filters on all our bikes and have never had a problem. We do change filters religiouisly after a day of racing (sometimes mid day also if very dusty) using the ziplock bag method of coating.
Are you sure you shook the bottle of oil well before use. Notoil uses an alcohol carrier which evaporates out and leaves the oil. without shaking you could have coated the filter with nothing but alcohol which then evaporated away:scream:
 

bud

Member
Jun 29, 1999
433
0
Clw, I have just gone thru something similar - muddy water getting thru the air filter which scratched up the piston and cylinder, as well getting in the carb and making the throttle stick open :silly:.

I don't use no toil though. I use motul, which has been great until I started doing deep water crossings. My impression is that once water gets sucked thru the filter once, it will get thru much more quickly the second time.

Two things I am going to try are covering the holes on the sides and bottom of the airbox with some sort of mesh that lets air thru, but not water. Also a different, thicker oil. The motul oil is as thin as water, though it gets tacky after a minute or two. I think what may be happening is, though the filter gets completely submerged in oil, I squeeze it out before it gets tacky. That might be leaving patches of the filter that don't have enough oil on them, ie where water could get thru more easily. I think that would be less likely to happen with a thicker oil.
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Eye opening test results!

First off, it's all ad copy.

Notoil, on its website, claims its product is waterproof and at another place water resistant. A treated filter with their product holds (saturates) and passes water easily. If the filter gets wet, be it splash or submersion, it will allow the liquid through. Of course the dirt will probably go with the water and out the exhaust. My very unscientific test was under static conditions, I couldn't simulate air movement (suction) that would be occurring under actual conditions.

On to Maxima FFT. Their bottle also makes the waterproof claim along with a statement that it's a "superior oil for stopping the passage of dirt...water and other harmful elements". It also will pass water, but I think being an oil base product it does resist (bead up) splash water a little better than Notoil. I guess Notoil is a polar chemical and as such will always choose to bond with water.

From now on I'll definitely try to seal up the airbox better in wet conditions. Also, I'm very concerned with the large openings both these bikes have in the bottom of their airboxes, deep stream crossings don't have to be THAT deep if you're ridding a bike that is already into its travel and all the water has to do is get 1-2" above the BOTTOM of the airbox. My water depth/riding gauge is still based on the old RMX, your knees got wet before water would spill over into the top of the airbox.

Oh, one last thing. I can't tell if Smets uses their product or not. On the Notoil website he's on the same page as old movie actors and circus clowns! I never saw a solid statement that he uses the product and helped him win numerous championships, etc., etc.

Bud:

Where do you ride? That's some kind of good looking woods.

Oldguy:

I might not be shaking the bottle enough. On accasion I've noticed a residual amount of product in the bottom ofthe bottle.
 
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angry jim

Sponsoring Member
Aug 4, 2000
429
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Clw

I don't know about Smets. Around here, the Garrahan brothers are sponsored by No-Toil. They use the same filters that you or I can get in the store. Since they run the National Hare Scrambles and Enduro series', I think that the filters see lot's of abuse. The only problem I've hear of them having is clogging up the filter in a very dusty Arizona race. I use a Twinair and a NO-toil filter with equal results.

I agree that Bud's riding area looks very sweet.
 

GlennP

Member
Jun 6, 2000
311
0
CLW,

Been there, fixed that. I run No-Toil on my GG filters with no problems. I have noticed in the past the bottom of my filters were very wet and dirty. What I do is cut foam blocks 1" thick to a compression fit in the airbox drain well. Treat these with filter oil and change/clean with filter. This slows the ingress of water through the oversize drain during a crossing, and will still allow any splash water from the top (unlikely) to slowely drain out. The ony time I get water on the filter now is if I don't plug the grab handle holes/intakes before washing the bike.

FYI, I have had sand, dirt, and water go eaisly through a BelRay oil treated filter on a KTM twice, once sticking the throttle and once wrecking the motor. My view is once they get wet, your in trouble, no matter what oil it is.
 

clw

Member
Dec 29, 2000
239
0
Given the observed affinity of a Notoil filter to water, and the shock my checkbook is in, I'm going back to either Maxima or Belray again. Not to say that under drier conditions Notoil works very well. Probably the problem is rooted in the drain design of the airboxes (and my competitive nature), I will try Glennp's foam trap block idea. It's an interesting solution that I haven't heard of before. My longstanding argument of the relative cheapness of dirt biking is under scrutiny by the boss, and rightfully so.

Does anyone have any clever ideas on preventing splash water from finding its way to the filter?
 
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