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? re: Restart format for Harrison FES event

KTM Mike

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#1
My son Mitch had some questions about restart format events, and how it would relate to the upcoming FES event in Harrison. I am not that familiar with restart format events, and really was not able to answer his question. Hopefully one of you guys can help Mitch out.

Mitch’s questions were to the effect of: “is there really any meaning to the 12 mph average for the first loop?” and “if lots of the older , faster riders can all do 12 or faster, they all zero the first loop – with no advantage to being faster than 12, right?” followed with “sounds like only the second loop will end up really mattering?”.

I was not sure I could give him any correct answers, so I actually called one of the contact numbers on the flyer and spoke to Jamie Lipovski’s wife. She verified that it was indeed laid out such the little guys can ride it. (it sounds like they basically use their new rider 7 year old as their yardstick of how reasonable the trail is). If this is the case, I cant imagine it being much, if anything, of a challenge for a decent , older rider to average 12mph or better in.

If that is the case, as this is a restart format, there is no penalty for arriving early at a checkpoint. So it seems the end result is many of the older/better skilled kids will simply zero the first loop, and basically all the real test for them is in the second, 18 mph loop.

Or am I missing something here? With the restart format, can there be tie breaker checks? It seems that might be the only way for taking points from the older kids on the first loop. The only other option (which is what I assume we will see on Sunday), is to have sections difficult enough riders simply can not maintain the posted average…but that seems contrary to making it rideable for the really little kids.

Please help me enlighten Mitch!
 
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#2
i talked with my dad about this last night. from what i gathered, the winner is the one with the best times throughout each individual section of trail between the restarts. there are penalty points given for being late, but not for being early. this format is meant for the race to be more about being fast, instead of good with math.

don't take my word for it, but i think that's what's going on
 
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#3
Not to high-jack at all, but where did you get a flyer for FES at Harrison??
 

24mph,m/l

#4
Restart format

The "restarts" are for entering a difficult section of trail. There will still be secret checks at the end of the tight trail sections, where it is possible to be either early or late. Lipovskys may use thier 7 yr old to determine is the trail is even ridable for little kids. Doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to average 12 mph
 

bbarel

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#6
24mph said:
Lipovskys may use thier 7 yr old to determine is the trail is even ridable for little kids.
Hey kid go ride that trail if you come back in one piece it must be ok. lol...
 
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#7
Mike, I'll try to keep my personal thoughts about using the restart format for FES events out of this... :|

Under the restart rules, you are not penalized for arriving at a RESTART control early... (although you would be penalized for leaving a restart control early OR late)
After you leave the restart control, you travel on the course to the (usually) secret or checkout control, where you will be scored either early, "zero", or late. The usual idea in the restart format is to to design the course so that even the fastest rider cannot be early, or "burn" the checkout -- therefore only dropping "late" points.
I'm thinking that in the FES loop with the 12 mph average there will be a lot of people "burning" the section. Or, as 24 says, maybe you cannot ride 12mph in the section (but wouldn't that make it too challenging for some of the young riders?).
 
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KTM Mike

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#8
CR- got mine at the Jackpine

Magoo (and others) so...they can be "HOT" at the "check out" and loose points for being early at "check out" then...different story in that case! IF that is indeed the case (which would be my preference) for it to be promoted as "no time keeping" would be kinda untrue for the faster kids. Unless of course...no way can they do 12...but as mentioned before, wont be easy on the real little guys like CR250s 5 year old son.

FWIW - I think we share the same opinion of this format for FES events! I must be bringing my kids up right to...they prefer timekeepers already! I think this is a case that supports why these should not be restart formats - how do they lay out difficult enough trail for a 16 year such they can not do 12 mph, yet such it is rideable by a 5 year old on a little 50? Of course the game changes when the average goes up to 18 for the older riders.
 

fatherandson

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#9
I have not seen the course, but I think the plan would be to take some points from the younger riders in the first loop and the second loop would take points from the older riders. They may have a short section that will take points from everyone.

I think it is good to try different things with the series. If we did not, we would be riding all events at 12 mph. We have tried some new things this year, some have worked and some did not. I hope the restart format works at Harrison, but if it does not - we at least gave it a try.
 
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#10
I think you should call it what it really is. A start control, not a restart there is a difference. Go to AMA rules and look it up. Only trying to help. Retired trailboss Nick
 
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#11
nzambon said:
I think you should call it what it really is. A start control, not a restart there is a difference. Go to AMA rules and look it up. Only trying to help. Retired trailboss Nick
Thanks for the clarification, old wise one! :nod:
 

Fred T

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#12
nzambon said:
I think you should call it what it really is. A start control, not a restart there is a difference. Go to AMA rules and look it up. Only trying to help. Retired trailboss Nick
Thanks Lake Trout fisher-man Nick. I need to git me a lot of that trout so I can lose 20 pounds too. If you bring more to Harrison I will grill it for ya! :nod:
 
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#13
I think you should call it what it really is. A start control, not a restart there is a difference. Go to AMA rules and look it up. Only trying to help. Retired trailboss Nick
The flyer I have says it is in "start control format - no time-keeping"

Of course that's for the sunday race

So what's the difference??
 

fatherandson

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#14
RGO - what you experienced at the Jack Pine between the two gas stops (I guess the first one for you was only a stop) is a start control format.
A solution to this issue is to have both loops at 18 mph. This idea will be discussed at a club meeting on Saturday. Sounds like a good solution to me. We did have a section at the Pine Cone this year that I do not think many people were able to maintain 12 mph, but it was after the younger riders had stopped at the GAS stop.
 

KTM Mike

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#15
I think I figured out the real source of my and Mitch's confusion! When Mitch first asked his questions, he was working from the understanding the Baby Buzzard is a "no time keeping" event, and I was viewing it from that angle when I did my initial post here. If it were, it would mean the trail in the 12 mph section would somehow magically have to be reasonably rideable by a 5 year old, and difficult enough such a faster kid could not burn the check outs - which seemed almost impossible to us. Which caused me to question my understanding of the "Start Control" rules.

A closer look at the flyers for both Saturday and Sunday cleared it all up. Sunday's event flyer specifically states "No Timekeeping" - easy enough to accomplish for the adult events. Saturday's flyer however does NOT say that! What it says is " No computer necessary" there is NO mention of it being a "no timekeeping" event. Somehow, both Mitch and I read the flyer for Saturday as "no timekeeping". Clearly we are wrong. Bottom line is, the faster kids will possibly, (likely?) have to do some timekeeping in the 12 mph section to avoid burning check outs.

Oh - another thing we noticed - Sunday's flyer uses the proper term "start control" while the Saturday event uses the term "Restart Format".

F&S - I certainly agree with trying new things for the FES events - and I think I understand the "whys" and the need to try to increase attendance. I think it is outstanding to see how the FES series keeps growing - keep up the great work! Oh, on your comment about both loops at 18 - not necessary if they are considered "timekeeping" events with Start Control's thrown in. I think many younger or less experienced riders who might be intimidated with the idea of an 18 mph average for the little guys or for the entire event. With the split speed average, even an older (but slower or inexperienced) rider doing both loops, might be more willing to give it a try knowing 1/2 of the event is at a "easy" average. If the goal is increased attendance, that might be a worthy consideration. Also the 12 mph sections really show people what timekeeping is all about.

RGO - Yeah, I have been told that GAS stops are important for some people...but evidently not for others. ;^)