jsned

~SPONSOR~
May 17, 2000
468
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Ricky Carmichael just beat Barnetts record. But only because Brown pulled over and let someone beat him. Weak. Brown won the series fair and square, but Ricky should not feel good about getting the record that way. I hope when people talk about it they mention how it happened. I dont know if this should be here or in the flame board, sorry.
 

jdecicco

Member
Nov 22, 1999
9
0
Bear in mind that RC might have opportunity to win the 125 class at the last round for some years to come. His breaking that record is inevitable.

Note: I'm not much of an RC fan, nor am I one to root for the riders of any particular brand.

-Jim
 

Sierra Flash

Member
Dec 29, 2000
59
0
The other side!

Seems to me when a rider is 3 to 5 seconds a lap faster than anyone else
plus being the fastest 125 rider who ever lived they deserve the record.
Have you noticed that RC has slowed down at the finish to let other riders
have a lap back? Feel thankful you get to see one of the best of all time
riders in history at work.
 

HiG4s

~SPONSOR~
Mar 7, 2001
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Originally posted by jdecicco
Bear in mind that RC might have opportunity to win the 125 class at the last round for some years to come. His breaking that record is inevitable.
-Jim

Personally I don't beleive that. Pastrana was beating Langston and Brown quite effectively until he got that concusion. So if he is in the 125 class next year who says RC could beat him. Come on Brown pulled over to help him out. They way Travis was riding this year in SX and the begining of MX I expected him to wrap up the title early and ride 250 at the end of the season, so much for that.
I'm really sorry to hear that a bike failure decided the championship.
 

jdecicco

Member
Nov 22, 1999
9
0
I would like to have seen Langston win it (well, Pastrana really). I guess we'll never know whether or not RC would have been able to pull this off some time in the future - since he won't need to.

As much as I like Travis, I believe RC would have smoked him out there today.

-Jim
 

Sierra Flash

Member
Dec 29, 2000
59
0
I like Travis also but checkout his interview with RacerX--his comment about
this weeks race was "Carmichael will not be a factor, he will be so far out
front Brown and Langston won't see him". Travis is smart enough to know
he is still minor league and the same with Brown. Now Langston was not,
but after getting smoked this weekend I suppose he sees what he has to
look forward to in the 250 class.
 

biker

Member
Sep 22, 2000
170
0
I'm an RC fan, but that's a weak way to get the record. He was the fastest guy on the track, But in my opinion he didn't earn it. Brown had to let a guy pass him for RC to get the record. I wouldn't want it that way. I know some people will flame this, but he didn't earn the win.
 

MTRIDER

Member
Aug 20, 2000
376
0
I say like the cliche there is no "I" in team.....
Now maybe Brown didnt deserve the Title but thats the way it works .....I guess thats why we ride green :p


Congrats...Team Green 125/250's
 

JimmyD2

~SPONSOR~
Nov 10, 2000
379
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Originally posted by MTRIDER
Now maybe Brown didnt deserve the Title but thats the way it works .....

I don't think there is any debate whether or not Brown's title is legit. Carmichael's record is the one in question and I for one think that is also legit. Broken wheels, DNFs, and Team tactics are all part of racing - always has been and always will be... I did feel very badly for Langston though. Although he does have many more years to win championships.

I was at the race today and Carmichael is just flat faster than anyone else. It was announced during the interviews that RC was turning lap times as fast as the 250 leaders. RC laughed it off and said that they were just relaxing and having fun without him out there. I doubt it. I guess if you are the fastest 125 rider to ever walk the face of the Earth, you deserve the record.
 

Rider 007

Member
Feb 10, 2000
224
0
The "record" is meaningless , just as what brand he was riding when he set it. He'll be on a red bike next year and then Honda fans will embrace him.
The facts are: Ricky sandbagged in the 125 class for years against "B" talent. He hung around and around and around. Barnett set his record when there was a full bevy of factory supported riders in the 125 class.
Ricky may as well have gone to Chicken Licks Raceway today and raced the 80cc 12-15 class. Didn't he win a lot of races in that class? Why not go back against that caliber of rider and try to add another trophy to the mantle.
Biker and some of the others are right, it was a weak scenario and won't earn a lot of respect from real race fans. If the race had concluded without the gratuitous actions of Mr. Brown, RC is 2nd overall. It wasn't legit and he won't gain any respect.
We all know the truth.
Yes, he set out to beat MC and earn the SX title and he did. That is totally legit and quite a feat. But it makes his 125 antics seem as though they should be beneath him.
But RC has consistently shown that he is all about him, and him alone. From his clothing contracts to the Honda deal to this stunt, it's all about RC.
He could take lessons from others about how to conduct yourself.
Wow, he got another 125 overall.

And dropped another rung on my ladder in the process.

Geez. Hey RJ, feel like coming out of retirement? We're in need of someone with class.
 

JimmyD2

~SPONSOR~
Nov 10, 2000
379
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Originally posted by Rider 007
The "record" is meaningless , just as what brand he was riding when he set it.

Meaningless to whom? Kawasaki? Honda? Race fans? Carmichael? Or just you? I'm not sure that I agreed when he announced that he was going to attempt to break it. But it sure made for an exciting day of racing against those "B-class" riders Langston and Brown - especially when he placed 3rd in the first moto. There are no rules preventing him from riding the 125 class. However I think he is a few years too old to race the 12-15 80cc class. ;)

Originally posted by Rider 007
Ricky sandbagged in the 125 class for years against "B" talent. He hung around and around and around.

That may or may not be true. Could it be that he is just the fastest rider regardless of class? He is just 21 years old right? Would it be better if he would have jumped to the 250 class one year earlier? I'm not sure that makes much of a difference.

Originally posted by Rider 007
it was a weak scenario and won't earn a lot of respect from real race fans. If the race had concluded without the gratuitous actions of Mr. Brown, RC is 2nd overall. It wasn't legit and he won't gain any respect.

I consider myself a "real" race fan and I respect RC as one of the best MXers of all-time. Although, I don't think I respect him any more or less than I did before this record.

Originally posted by Rider 007
But RC has consistently shown that he is all about him, and him alone.

Maybe he should be about Travis Pastrana or Sebastian Tortelli? :D Seriously though - I wonder if RC would pull over to help Brown? Probably?

RC is a great rider - one of the greatest. He hates to lose and comes across as a jerk. (quite often in my opinion) But he shouldn't lose respect for accomplishing a goal that was within the rules and judging by "real" fan reaction today, I imagine he gained more respect than he lost.
 
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mopowa

Member
Dec 6, 2000
75
1
007 Why such a heavy ax too grind.
Pro racing is for entertainment. Its suppossed to be exciting and fun.
If you are having problems somewhere, find another place to vent.
Find a co-worker that does a better job than you and mess with him.
 

dirt bike dave

Sponsoring Member
May 3, 2000
5,349
3
Well said, Jimmy!

The record is certainly not meaningless to TEAM Kawasaki - RC is now the winningest 125 rider of all time, and ALL of his wins came on a Kawasaki. By winning today RC also broke McGrath's record of most combined SX and MX wins in a single season. Brown had already clinched the title - why deprive his teammates of additional glory?

I'm also a race fan, and I can undertstand why Brown and RC did what they did. Brown had accomplished his and Kawasaki''s #1 goal the instant Langston pulled off. Brown works for Kawasaki. He can help his employer (his TEAM) by letting another rider past. It's not just about RC, but RC deserves the record and our respect - his most impressive ride of the year was probably his 3rd in the 1st moto!

Also, can you imagine how much heat Brown would have gotten from his team and from RC's fans if he had not pulled over? Brown has to work with these people. He would have been labelled selfish, not a team player, etc...

BTW, RC and Brown will be on TEAM USA at the MXdN. They should get along pretty well. Watch out, Belgium :)

Finally, nobody can blame RC for the economics of the sport. He doesn't decide if the 125 class is strong or weak (It's strong). But to label national caliber riders as "B talent" , :silly: Those 'B' riders that RC lapped today would probably lap your local top pro.
 

Rider 007

Member
Feb 10, 2000
224
0
JimmyD2,
I doubt that I’m the only one who views it this way (see other posts above), but I believe you’re missing my point: What does he have to prove by dropping back to compete against what is obviously inferior competition?
I already gave him kudos for setting out to beat the invincible MC and doing it. I have no innate dislike of RC, only giving my opinion of his actions.
What is to be gained by this stunt and then only winning it by having Brown let a slower rider by to “give” him the overall? How does that make him a greater rider in the annals of MX history?
My point is that true champion would look for a challenge, something to push him to a higher level. Not padding his portfolio by cherrypicking.

Would it be better if he would have jumped to the 250 class one year earlier? I'm not sure that makes much of a difference.

Well, if he had jumped a year earlier, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, would we? That year let him further pad his stats. Looks like it makes all the difference and you made my point for me.

I consider myself a "real" race fan and I respect RC as one of the best MXers of all-time. Although, I don't think I respect him any more or less than I did before this record.

Everyone considers themselves a real race fan but I have to wonder if your choice of mount (’00 KLX300) doesn’t taint your objectiveness on this subject. I really don’t care what brand someone rides and I don’t factor it into my opinion of them (and remember, this is an opinion.)

I wonder if RC would pull over to help Brown? Probably?

Speculation. The fact is that he didn’t earn it.

RC is a great rider - one of the greatest.

In your opinion. Then he shouldn’t need to prove himself against inferior competition.

So,
Facts:
RC set a goal to beat the omnipotent MC at SX and did it…… kudos.
He beat the best in the 250 MX class 2 years in a row…… kudos.
He sandbagged in the 125 class when he could have moved on after showing his dominance…. shame.
He cherrypicked and then had to have it fixed to win today…. sad.

Opinion:
He should be above the last 2 items.

But again, just an opinion. They only matter to the people that hold them.
But I’m sure we agree on this: I’d rather be riding than typing at this computer!

Dirt Bike Dave:
Sounds like a case of “my dad can beat your dad up”. Relative to the 250 National class, the 125 National class contains lesser talent. Just a fact, not a slap.If it doesn’t, then why don’t the factories grab the 125 talent to compete in the 250 class now? Oh yeah, there aren’t any 125 factory teams, are there? (excepting KTM). And if they couldn’t beat a local pro, they should trade places. You’re making my point, also.

And just since I’ve seen too many of these threads go postal, let it be clear that this is a polite discussion of peoples' opinions. Period. I consider everyone here to be a fellow riding buddy and, since there is no tone of voice that accompanies these post, there is no malice expressed towards anyone.
See you guys, and take care!

PS: and to Mopowa – give up all the Dr. Laura! (or are you studying for your first Psych test?)
:confused:
 

JimmyD2

~SPONSOR~
Nov 10, 2000
379
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Oh I love a good discussion. (debate?) :)

Originally posted by Rider 007
but I believe you’re missing my point: What does he have to prove by dropping back to compete against what is obviously inferior competition?
How does that make him a greater rider in the annals of MX history?

I get your point and understand where you're coming from, but... What he had to gain was the record for most 125 wins - proving, at least in his mind, that he is the greatest rider in the history of that class. I guess as long as that record stands, those looking back on MX history will see his name on top of that list. That's what he wanted. Not everyone agrees with his decision.

Originally posted by Rider 007
Well, if he had jumped a year earlier, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, would we? That year let him further pad his stats. Looks like it makes all the difference and you made my point for me.

Who made that decision? RC or Kawasaki? Look at it this way - it'll just take him one year longer to break the same record in the 250 class. :)

Originally posted by Rider 007
Everyone considers themselves a real race fan but I have to wonder if your choice of mount (’00 KLX300) doesn’t taint your objectiveness on this subject.

You caught me - I ride a Kawasaki. I hope that doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion?! If RC was riding a Honda today, I would have the same thoughts on the matter. (Of course Brown may not have been so helpful though...) I trust that you would have the same opinion had RC been riding your brand of choice? Gimme a little credit. ;)

Originally posted by Rider 007 in reference to RC being one of the greatest riders ever...
In your opinion.

If you don't think he is one of the greatest riders ever, then I must argue that you are showing your bias against RC to an extreme. That is a fact - not an opinion. If RC were to retire tomorrow, a case could be made to put him right up there with Hannah, Johnson, Ward, McGrath, etc... If there was a HOF he would be a unanimous vote.

Originally posted by Rider 007
But I’m sure we agree on this: I’d rather be riding than typing at this computer!

Hey don't tell me what I'd rather be doing. I don't like riding at night! - Just kidding. :) Oh yeah, I've not seen many facts recorded that contain the words "sandbagged" and "cherrypicked". Very interesting. I'll have to look them up.
 

the Eel

~SPONSOR~
Sep 23, 2000
1,747
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This will probably earn me some flak - but maybe not ...

It seems to me that with all the money involved in this sport that team tactics are entirely acceptable and to be expected - at this point, for a pro racer, it's ALL about winning.

Mike Brown may be a dirty rider, but he wins. It's like pro football. It involves intimidation and team tactics. It may have been ugly for Mike Brown to pull off the track or whatever it was that happned, but look at the result for Kawasaki - Brown wins the 125cc class for Kawasaki and Carmichael breaks a record on a Kawasaki. Not to mention that Kawasaki also gets the 250cc overall without Carmichael even having to race the 250 at Steel City.

No offense to anyone, but this means that Kawasaki is the shiznit right now !!!!

These teams are shelling out huge bucks - and the riders need to win to keep making that bank. It doesn't surprise me that this kind of thing happens. To be honest, I thinks it makes it more exciting.

As far as Carmichael is concerned - I think that his attitude, which may be rather egocentric, is part of why he is far and away the best out there right now. The fact that he is high on himself and can't stand losing is one of the things that makes him as good as he is. And let's remember - for these racers it's a job - for us it's entertainment.

I think all in all the Nationals this year were darn entertaining ... and I thank all the racers who made it that way for us.
 

Rider 007

Member
Feb 10, 2000
224
0
JD2,
FYI, I currently have a Yamaha and a Honda (both woods bikes) and recently sold a Kawasaki (KX500). I ride what suits me best. I know it disqualifies me, but I like K-Dub (it's his riding style, go figure), Ferry and others, no matter what their results, or their brand affiliation. And no, your scoot doesn't disqualify you from an opinion! That was more of a dig than anything!;)

If you don't think he is one of the greatest riders ever, then I must argue that you are showing your bias against RC to an extreme. That is a fact - not an opinion.

What is a fact? That you're arguing, that I'm biased or that RC is one of the all time greats?
In your opinion I am biased if i don't think he is one of the greatest riders ever.
Well, we first need to define "greatest". I'll save you the trouble and go ahead and let the cat out of the bag: we won't have the same definition.
If we did we wouldn't have different opinions.
Fact: you're arguing.
Fact: I didn't arrive at my opinion due to bias, but from examining actions. You believe otherwise and that is an opinion. We'll have to disagree! :)
Opinion: RC is one of the greatest of all time. Again, that depends on your criteria.
Fact: RC is one of the winningest riders. But that doesn't mean that I have to use that as the sole or main basis in my judgement.
Fact: In my opinion Steve Wise was one of the all-time greats. Not because of a number of wins, but due to the fact that he could compete at the highest level of competition in so many different forms of motorcycle racing.

Drat! Now the truth is out! I'm afraid RC will break Steve's record for qualifying for a National event in the most types of motorcycle racing! And all because he dated my sister's-friend's-cousin's-gardener's-maid's-aunt! The bias of it all! The shame!:confused:

Oh yeah, I've not seen many facts recorded that contain the words "sandbagged" and "cherrypicked". Very interesting. I'll have to look them up.

I'll help you there, too. They're implicit, not explicit. And they're recorded by those of us who were around when it happened. That's how we form these doggone opinions!

Hey, JD, have a good one man. And don't kid me, I know that KLX has a light on it! So go riding!

Have a safe and dirt-filled Labor Day!
 

Okiewan

Admin
Dec 31, 1969
29,555
2,237
Texas
Congrats...Team Green 125/250's
They need all the help they can get, cause they sure can't sell KX's ... I hear you can get a smokin' deal on a KX at just about any dealer in the country. Maybe the titles will help them sell-off the dusty 2001's, before the 2002's get here?

Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday? It aint workin' for Team Green. And don't acuse me of brand loyalty, I've owned green, red and blue in the last 1.5 years.

The planets def. aligned for Brown this season, congrats.
Talent and experience wins, the color of the bike has nothing to do with it.

As far as Ricky and his title, hope he enjoys the way he got it. Don't ya just hate "yeah, buts"?
 

dirt bike dave

Sponsoring Member
May 3, 2000
5,349
3
Fact: The previous record holder, Mark Barnett, returned to the 125 class after his 250 career.

Fact: RC did not 'fix' today's 125 national.

BTW,007, Suzuki also has a 125 factory team.

The 250's are the premier class, but there is PLENTY of talent in the 125s. Ask some of the former Big 4 factory riders (L. Ward, Lamson, Henry, Huffman, etc...).

Congrats to Team Kawasaki for a GREAT year! RC's records are just icing on the cake. The team must feel great - they won all the major US championships with bikes that get little respect from the press.
 
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Sierra Flash

Member
Dec 29, 2000
59
0
Ricky sandbagged in the 125 class for years against "B" talent
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he is sandbagging on the world now, how many riders have got
to sit out their last race with a championship in hand. A local rider here
who rides the nationals told me RC is the only guy out there earning his
money and that no one was prepared to go his pace for fear of injury.
Larry Ward said RC is the best motocross rider in the world now, everyone
that knows racing especially the racers themselves know this. So there is
no need to sandbag. Kawasaki wanted him to ride that race as any factory
team would do to enhance their chances of winning another championship.
 

IBWFO

Member
Aug 5, 2001
367
0
Funny the differeing opinons. I have not riddden a 125 since 1984, but to go back to a 125 after 2 years of not riding one, and win a NATIONAL over the likes of Brown AND Langston is pretty awesome.
The fact that RC was turning lap-times FASTER than ALL the 250 guys )on a 125) is pretty awesome too.
Wheather or not you think it is justified or not has no merit on the bottom line.
RC is the winningest 125 rider EVER, and wheather he did it for himself, God, or Kawasaki doesn't matter much either.
RC is a winner, and the record books will reflect that long after these dicenting opinions.
The interest RC created today was ispiring too.
Speaking of Challenges, RC took one on today and won.
After the race they interviewed Windham, and asked him if he missed RC being in the race, Windham replied absolutely NOT!
I've always believed that "pay-backs" are HELL, and the move Langston put on Bonds earlier in the year came back and "bit" him!
 
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