Riding etiquette, or Did i do the right thing?

jaybob · Mar 24, 2004

When I used to ride out at Farmingdale in South Dakota I met a guy of approximately the same abilities and we got along pretty well and had some fun throwing some dirt.

A few weeks later the guy calls me and invites me on a ride in the Black Hills. When I get there it is him, 2 other older guys and another friend of his. I'm thinking great as I like to ride with and meet people, and learn new trails.

Well we get started out and it becomes pretty obvious that the 2 older dudes were pretty fast and technical, me and my buddy were in the middle but able to keep up, and they other guy my friend brought was more of a noob and we had to wait for him alot.

After a while we started to get separated cause I was staying with the faster guys, and my friend was waiting for the newer guy. Eventually we ran across a pretty deep stream that you had to ride along and in because of the canyon walls on each side. This was also littered with some substantial boulders, so it was getting pretty tecnical.

Eventually I found myself alone. There were guys way in front of me and way behind me. So for awhile I waited for the others to catch up and then turned around to find my buddy. I rode back for awhile and did not find them and also I had no idea where I was. It came to a point that I crashed into a depression between three boulders and could not get my bike out by myself.

After resting along comes the faster guys who had back tracked and they helped me get going again. At that point I had a choice to make. Do I keep going back alone to find the guy who had invited me? Or do I stay with the other guys just in case I get in trouble or get lost?

To wrap this up I will say that I stayed with the two older dudes and they took me on the best trail ride of my entire life to date. Man I had some fun and saw some neat things.

When we finally came out of the woods my buddy was at the truck with his other friend and I got the cold shoulder from him. I mean he was really mad that I did not stay with him.

So my question is: when riding with people you don't know too well is it better to stay with the slower group and preserve or build frienships and not have much fun. Or is it ok to go with the group that matches up with your abilities?

evenslower · Mar 24, 2004

In my own feeble mind, riding alone in an unknown place is far worse than a cold shoulder. You tried to find him, what if you hadn't, then you're screwed.

Your bud should realize that.

dirty~d~ · Mar 24, 2004

My opinion... that's a call you kind of have to make on your own. It seems a little odd that your friend would give you a cold shoulder because you got split up. Large trail riding groups will have a tendancy to get split up... it just happens. I've never been able to 'stay in the group' when I've been on group rides, but it's still fun. Isn't enjoying yourself the whole point? Again, just my opinion.

Tree · Mar 24, 2004

I've riden with groups a bunch of times and I'm usually in mid pack unless I choose to ride sweep or on rare occassions take the lead based on trail knowledge. It helps if more than one person knows the trails so you have one person up front and one riding sweep (last). The first thing we do is get an idea where we are going and any stops in between. Then make a game plan for the ride such as, keep riding but check for the person behind you at each intersection to make sure they haven't crashed and can see the direction to follow. With big groups this doesn't always work though. If some of the group does get seperated they should return to the last place or intersection that they were with the group and wait.

In your case it doesn't sound like you guys had a plan when you took off. Your buddy shouldn't blame you as you weren't familiar with the area. After the two fast guys found you, one of them should have went to scout for the rest of the group while you waited for them to return. If I was your buddy I'd be more upset with the two fast guys then with you. But, knowing the order in which you guys were running the fast guys may have figured that as long as they found you the other two would be together and could find their way back, which turned out to be the case. If they weren't at the truck when you guys returned I'm sure you all would have headed back out to look for them.

Like I said, it all depends on what you decide before you start out.

DezDuster · Mar 24, 2004

Trail riding with people you don't know can get complicated and, as you learned, can cause some hard feelings. In my 30+ years of riding here in Nevada I've gone out with lots of groups of riders and we always manage to follow the unwritten rule that we never leave anyone behind. Each rider has an obligation to wait until the next guy show up at places where it would be easy to get lost --like multiple turnoffs from the trail. It isn't always fun that way, and we usually manage to share the duties of being the guy just ahead of the slower riders, but it is the only way to stay safe and ensure that everyone has a good time. After you go out once with the new guys you will know how to change the composition of the group next time to avoid losing people or making it intolerable for the person who finds himslef always waiting for the slow guys. Riding is supposed to be fun, but it also has to be safe.
I feel that at least two things were wrong with your ride: 1. The "older guys" should have been more tolerant and patient, especially if they knew the ability of the slower rider. 2. Your friend should not have invited a rider who was so slow that he would hold the group up. It sounds like he was the common denominator in knowing everone's ability and should have been more discriminating in his selection of riders for a remote trail ride. Having the "best trail ride of your life" is a goal for every ride, but the other guys are there too. I guess that if you decide up front that it'll be a trail-race instead of a trail-ride that all bets are off and its every rider for himself, otherwise be smart, have fun, and be safe.

dirt bike dave · Mar 24, 2004

Once the fast guys rescued you, you were far better off staying with them than riding alone and getting lost/stuck.

However, you might be responsible for losing the guys behind you, epsecially if you did not wait for them at a fork in the trail, or some other place where they could easily lose your tracks.

It's tough keeping a group with different skills together. At spots where it is easy to lose contact, you really need to wait for the next guy behind you. As much as it sucks waiting, it's even worse trying to find the lost guy. Worst of all is being the lost guy!

IMO, since your friend invited the slower rider, it was his responsibility to watch over the weakest link. When it was obvious the skills in the group were not compatible, he and the slow guy should have volunteered to seperate from the group, letting the fast guys go. At that point, you could have opted to stay with your friend or go with the fast guys.

If you are comparable skill to the guy who invited you, try to ride with just him next time. You both will probably have a blast and hopefully you can learn to trust each other. Of course, if you didn't wait for him at an intersection, he might bend your ear a little bit first.

Green Horn · Mar 24, 2004

I know what it's like to be the slow guy who gets lost from the faster guys. I got lost and spent all night (7-8 hrs) stranded in the dunes one night because I got lost from the group. IMO it's not up to others to "babysit" me while I'm out riding. If someone stays back with me I look at it as a COURTESY not something that's required, regardless of who invited me. When the guys found me the next morning, they were worried I'd be mad. I told them that sh-- happens and that it's no ONE persons fault that I got lost. There were a series of "incidents" leading up to it that got me lost.

Sounds to me like this guy has issues. I'd do my best to lose his ass again next time. :)

jaybob · Mar 24, 2004

Wow I appreciate the the views from all sides of this issue.

I believe after looking back I should have waited as long as it took and at least checked with the other two to see if they would want to split the groups. So I guess it was a little flaky of me to not meet up with the two behind and force the leaders to meet up with the rest of the group as well. Or to convince the leaders to wait for the slower group, maybe then we could have changed the plan.

But as others have pointed out I don't feel the entire buden of the blame but I COULD have taken more mature responsibility in making the situation better.

One good thing is I learned alot about group riding that day and hopefully through a better pre-ride plan I can avoid the same sort of situation in the future.

Even though the social dynamics were a little goofed up I still really enjoyed the ride.

Michelle · Mar 24, 2004

While perhaps you should've waited at an earlier stage, once you were lost & then found, you'd have been an idiot to try & find the other two riders in a place you'd not been to before.

The other thing is, if there's a slower rider in the group, why not take turns babysitting/waiting.

The only time I'll abandon someone I've been riding with is to go back for help.

I guess you traded numbers? Give him a ring, explain what happened from your perspective & get his take on it all.

Oh, if he's anything like us, he judges on the first ride & may never want to ride "with" you again (be warned). It's up to you to make the first gesture though - he did by inviting you.

Good luck & I hope it works out, don't let your pride get in the way :)

70 marlin · Mar 25, 2004

It's A live and learn type thing. Trail etiquette isn't something you get from a magazine. You have to learn it first hand. It can be very painful and dangerous. But as long as you learn from you mistakes. AND DON'T KEEP MAKING THE SAME ONES. You’ve gained experience. Believe me I made my fair share mistakes and caused grief and hard feeling’s. What I have learned
1. Have a leader
2. Make sure everybody knows to stay together.
3. If you get separated stay on the trail till help comes.
4. Know your limits.
5. Watch out for your fellow riders.
6. Have a plan.
I’m sure there any more (musts) feel free to add to the list.

BunduBasher · Mar 25, 2004

I always thought the number one rule is that the slowest rider should ride 2nd .. or something like that .... !

And the lead rider/trail boss should stop now and agin to make sure everyone has caught up.

I made the mistake when riding sweep at our last Mckenzie spodefest, I let two of the slower riders turn round and return to camp alone, when I should have gone with them. Needless to say, they were lost for most of the day ! :think:

ScottYZ250 · Mar 26, 2004

Where I do most of my riding, I know the trails inside and out. I'm not the fastest guy out there by any means, but I can ride pretty much anywhere. When I'm riding with my buddies, I ride sweep about 80% of the time. I do this to make sure the lesser skilled riders always have someone behind them who won't abandon them. I'd rather ruin my day of riding than strand someone. Just my two cents...

ScottS · Mar 26, 2004

I was on a ride once and we came into a pretty open field- where we opened the bikes up, when we got to the edge of the field the ribbons marking the trail led into the woods- so we blasted into the woods and over the edge of a ravine- seems like someone blew the corner and dragged the ribbons down into the woods with him, causing us to think that is where we should go- of course this turned into a 45 minute episode getting both bikes back up the ravine . We laughed it off and went on our way.

The next day we hooked up with a guy from our town that had been riding by himself and we suggested he come with us. Well, wouldn't you know that when we came across this field again he happened to be in the lead , and went right back down into the ravine that we had gone into the day before.

Some of our riding group were upset that he had cost us time, as it took about a 1/2 hour to get him back out ( with a 650 4 stroke that didn't want to start) so some of our crew left and went on.

I guess people forget that we are out there to have fun and as long as no one gets hurt there is no such thing as a bad day riding. Never be in a hurry or have expectations that no one will have a mechanical problem or get stuck or lost. Actually those things make for the best stories

ScottS · Mar 26, 2004

Should also say that in a group of varied local knowledge or skills you need a good guy in the back to ride sweep - everyone should wait at each fork for the guy behind him, that way if the guy behind you doesn't show up you are theoretically only one wrong turn apart- eventually the whole line will come to a stop and evryone can get back together.

ScottYZ250 · Mar 26, 2004

That's very good logic. I think a lot of groups ride with that logic. My club uses it. I also know first hand it doesn't always work out as smooth on the trail as one might think though. But, if everyone's trying to look out for each other, usually you can make it work out! :clue:

Boodac · Mar 26, 2004

Excellent topic and interesting takes on the subject. Ive been in both positions at one point or another and have brought back some interesting perspective from both. The way I see it, even if you ride on and have a great ride, your going to feel like jerk when you get back at the truck and find out someone broke down or was stranded. Just because your in the back riding sweep doesnt mean you cant change with someone else for while. In fact, I try to make it a point to share that responsability and offer or just assume the sweep position with someone else from time to time. I myself usually ride with my kids a lot who tend to be slower riders. Because of this I tend to get a little over zealous when I get away to ride without them. Life is nothing more than a constant learning process so learn from your mistakes and move on.

bud · Mar 26, 2004

On a trail ride where ppl don't know each other that well, I'd have thought it would be the responsibility of the leader to stop and regroup periodically. That's how it works where I am, even when when the riders know each other and the area fairly well. I'd say your friend has every right to be pissed off, just not at you imo, from your side of the story.

motometal · Mar 27, 2004

from my experience with snowmobiles or bikes, 5 wouldn't really be considered a "big" group, and there shouldn't be a problem staying together if the rules mentioned in some of the other posts are followed. Some times it works out well for the faster riders to go in the back. If you are that faster rider, and you are behind slower riders, you can still go fast! Slow way down for a while (or stop), then ride as fast as you want until you catch up. If you do this, make sure and tell the guy ahead of you what's going on so he only looks for you at intersections. Otherwise, he will be riding even slower thinking that you had a problem, while actually you are trying to get him to go on ahead.

DezDuster · Mar 28, 2004

Judging from the replys on this thread most of the riders on this site would have no problem dealing with a trail ride group situation.
The area that they were riding in sounds interesting. If I lived closer I'd ask jaybob to show me the trails and make him lead.

motometal · Mar 28, 2004

I wasn't trying to oversimplify the situation. Since he wasn't in charge of the ride, and there was no firm "plan" set out at the beginning of the ride...i'm sure I could have ended up in the same predicament if it was me.

holeshot · Mar 28, 2004

Although we try and keep everyone together during a trail ride, crap happens. :moon: Tell your buddy to deal with it and get over it, because he'll never have perfection with a group that's throttle twisting (unless he's riding with an extremely boring bunch).

jaybob · Mar 28, 2004

DezDuster said:
Judging from the replys on this thread most of the riders on this site would have no problem dealing with a trail ride group situation.
The area that they were riding in sounds interesting. If I lived closer I'd ask jaybob to show me the trails and make him lead.

Hey Dez I appreciate the vote of confidence. The Rapid City area of SD does have some interesting riding. You can either go out to the Buffalo Gap National Grasslands which has an area that is like riding on the moon. Part of the area is white ash with 1000 ft hills and all kinds of terrain to play on in cluding a few vertical climbs and lots of dried up stream cutouts and looks like the Badlands a little farther east in the state which you cannot ride on. Just don't go too early in the spring as the dirt looks dry on top but can be the greasiest stickiest gumbo mud.

On the particular ride I have mentioned we started out with some awesome forest riding cutting up hills and off cambers all over the place. every once in a while we would come upon a steep loose rocky hill climb and you can either try that or go bouncing all over crossing the downed logs on the get around. But by far my favorite was when we entered the canyon. As I said you started riding beside a stream. As the walls started closing in you had to ride in the stream more and more because it was only a few hundred feet straight up on each side. This stream was deep and then shallow with fairly large boulders all over the place. Finally we came to what I thought was the end of the canyon however hidden in the bushes was a window in the sheer rock face that opened up into another section of canyon. This window was only about 5 feet tall. First you had to bounce up onto a 3 ft rock and then duck down to the bars and duck walk your way through about 10 ft of solid rock. after it opened up again we found an abondoned campsite with clothes and all kinds of stuff strewn around that looked like it had been sitting out in the rain and sun for a long time. Kind of spooky like in a movie "where did the campers go?" then time to ride up a few shallow falls and eventually work your way out of the canyon again.

MikeT · Mar 31, 2004

You should never abandon anyone while riding. The two fast guys in front should have done a better job of waiting up for you and the others. Your bud behind you actually left the woods without knowing where you were. It is usually a good idea to talk about the route you will take through the woods before you go. For instance, the experienced riders should have told you about the water crossing and chosen that as a waiting point.

All this is 20/20 and even at that, I feel you made the right choice.

Slips · Mar 31, 2004

Sounds to me like you guys should have set a few guidelines. Like who was going to go fast, slow or together. I say make friends of the two guys you liked riding with! LOL

Mike_socal · Apr 1, 2004

The two fast guys should have waited for you and you should have waited for the slower guys. Right or wrong you probably lost a riding buddy.

Riding etiquette, or Did i do the right thing?

jaybob

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