Shifting Without the Clutch, Your Thoughts?

[Spine_Thrust]

All, I have a debate going with a friend of mine and it is this: Me and my friend are getting back into riding. We have discussed, on many occasions, techniques on the trail/track that would make one faster (and more in control for that matter).

I believe, and stand firm on the fact, that the fastest riders in certain scenarios DO NOT use their clutch. For instance, you might not need to not use the clutch while entering a turn and by using the gears to slow you down it sets you up for the exit. In another scenario, you would not want to use the clutch to up**** for the fact that you want to get to the next gear as fast as possible.

Now, my friend buys the fact that that these physical characteristics may indeed help while riding. The debate comes in when the discussion turns to whether or not this is harmful to the bike.

I wonder what you all think about this? Does shifting without the clutch harm the transmission over an extended period of time? Does it harm the bike in a short period of time? Or at all? I have my own thoughts and experiences about this subject and I would like to hear yours...

Thanks,
Eric

 

[jboomer]

I don't know if it is or isn't. Personally, I use the clutch on nearly every shift, when I don't I ALWAYS chop the throttle before shifting. I have a friend that seldom uses the clutch to shift OR chops the throttle (meaning he'll shift with the throttle wide open). The difference between the two of us: he's grenaded a transmission and I haven't (well there's two differences, he's a bit faster than me). Hopefully someone with some useful knowledge on the subject will pipe up, because I'm interested too!

 

[Spine_Thrust]

Thanks jboomer. I want to add a little more to my thoughts...I think that if you let off the throttle while upshifting and natuarally no throttle is applied while downshifting, you decrease dramatically the chance of catching a gear in the middle and possibly ruining your transmission (over a period of several years).

OK, I want to focus this thread more on shifting without the clutch AND not "chopping it" as you put it. I shift in a way as to let off the throttle (decrease the RPM's) while attempting to shift. WOT and shifting is bad, we all know this right?

 

[Spine_Thrust]

And something else to add, my friend has a valid point in that the factory riders have their bikes rebuilt probably after every race and that if the transmission did give out, it would be nothing to replace. So this is not only a debate about mechanics, but also finance!!!

 

[Wraith]

Originally posted by Spine_Thrust
For instance, you might not need to not use the clutch while entering a turn and by using the gears to slow you down it sets you up for the exit.

That might work for sweepers, but you would get your numbers blown off in any other kind of corner :confused:
But if you slip your clutch coming out of corners, isn't that abuse as well :think:
As far as i see it. I do and will continue to use my clutch for every shift. I figure they put it on there for reasons other than getting started. I've tried it both ways (clutchless and with the clutch that is) , and could tell no difference in getting faster. But that's just me.

 

[mxer842]

going into corners i shift down to help use the tranny to slow me down, you should always keep the clutch out in a corner because the subtle torque of a bike even at idle helps traction. i used to get bad starts all the time because i wouldn't use my clutch i would just chop the throttle and shift up but now i keep the throttle pinned and grab gears with my clutch and it has helped because if you shift w/o your clutch you have to chop the throttle in turn you can fall off the meat of the powerband. other than that i just flick my clutch coming out of corners to get on the pipe.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I went through a phase a few years back where I stopped using the clutch; but reviewing this technique I found I was faster using the clutch.

When I accelerate I almost always powershift, i.e. I just hold the throttle wide open and give a quick squeeze on the clutch to upshift. This technique keeps the engine in the sweet spot of the powerband. It can’t be done (safely) without the clutch.

When I decelerate for a turn I try to keep the revs up but sometimes there is too much engine braking to make a smooth transition at the apex. It this situation I’ll clutch-n-rev just before the apex and get a nice launch out of the turn. Using the clutch while downshifting will always provide a smoother shift.

The only time I find myself not using the clutch is in the woods. If I’m going through a real nasty section of single track at low rpm’s, and my arms (or brain) are just too busy, I’ll just bang the gear I need.

 

[Spine_Thrust]

I'm not saying I don't EVER use the clutch, I do. Just that certain situations call for clutch and certain situations, I believe, call for NOT using the clutch.

I really want to focus this thread on the mechanics of the transmission. I have read people say that motorcycle tranny's are "dogbox" in style, they have no syncro's (right?) and by NOT using the clutch it does not harm it. Also if anyone else knows anyone who has had to rebuild the lower end because of shifting without the clutch please chime in.

 

[tedkxkdx]

This could be a thread for Eric Gorr's area of DRN.

 

[mxer842]

my friend never uses the clutch and in 2years of riding has never had to rebuild either of his cr80's lower ends.

 

[Moto Squid]

I have the tendency to slam gears w/o the clutch and haven't had any issues with the trannys on any of my bikes. When I rebuilt my cr this summer it had nearly two seasons of tough racing and I saw no damage to the shift drum, forks or gears. On the rare occassion I actually use the clutch I barely pull it in....usually never more than just a nudge.

I haven't had a race bike for more than two years so honestly I can't say if not using the clutch will ultimately result in the demise of your transmission.

 

[biglou]

Same here. Been hammerin' the 426 for almost 2yrs now without the clutch about 75% of the time. Also, fan the clutch coming out of corners to get the rev's up. Original clutch, no tranny problems. I usually back off the throttle for a split second when upshifting under load. All clutchless downshifts are done with the thottle closed or near closed when decellerating.

 

[KAY DEE EXER]

I used to have a 2000 YZ125 and Im sure one of there strong marketing points was about an "involuted spline / shaft" (or something like that) in the gearbox specificaly for clutchless gear changes. A quote from a popular MX magazine about the 2000 YZ's was "Clutch use is clutch abuse". I have had no major problems in the gearboxes on any of my bikes and I only use the clutch probably 25% of the time. But Im no Bubba Stewart either!!!

 

[Chief]

According to E.G., downshifting w/o the clutch is generally ok as the forces on the trans are not great enough to do much damage, the rear tire should soak up most of the shock w/a slight skid. Upshifting w/o the clutch produces more shock to the trans and is more detrimental.

 

As far as a faster takeoff it's just basic physics. If you are spinning you are wasting time. Using the clutch well can keep you just on the brink of spinning which is what u want,

 

      If I'm on a hill and need to nail a lower gear to pull it, I'm not worrying about the clutch, I'm gonna make the hill, then rebuild it when I have to.

 

  Generally speaking, I think using the clutch effectively should always give me an advantage, more control. I have a 250 and slip it all the time in tight stuff. Also keeps the revs where I want them. It's fast enough so I can clutch it on the upshifts also. I tend not to use it on downshifts just because I believe it causes minimal shock to the trans.  

 

I'm just a trail/woods rider so take it for what it's worth. I know when I owned a 125 at 16 yrs old, upshifting by backing off the throttle (no clutch) made all the difference in the world, the 250 isn't much of an issue, not to mention I'm 20 years older and slower now.

 

Joe Chief

 

Having a short clutch lever helps me to use it more. I broke 1/2 of mine off in a spill before I found an aftermarket, sanded it smooth, and it works like a dream.

 

[Yogurt]

Doesn't clutching all depend if your on a 2-stroke or a 4-stroke? I heard something like what KAY DEE EXER said, clutch use on a 4-stroke is clutch abuse. But not on 2-strokes. I guess now that I'm on a 4-stroke, I do use the clutch less. But I do just nudge it on upshifts. And use it when I'm braking. And when the gate drops, I do gently slip it.

 

[High Lord Gomer]

If you back off the gas to shift, you might as well take your hand all the way off so you can wave at the guys who are passing you.

I use the clutch for all shifting...both up and down. I've had some bikes (older Yamahas) that wouldn't shift under power if you didn't use the clutch. Heck, sometimes even the clutch didn't help! When downshifting, I'm usually already on the brakes, so I have the clutch in to keep from killing the motor if the rear tire locks up.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Originally posted by High Lord Gomer
If you back off the gas to shift, you might as well take your hand all the way off so you can wave at the guys who are passing you.

 :laugh:

 

[Spine_Thrust]

Thanks for all of the input guys.

 

[TWRT]

I had an 86 YZ250. It would shift under full power w/o having to use the clutch. I thought it was amazing. It seemed like one long gear and you couldn't even hear the shift. I did that for quite some time, until it blew out third gear. The sharp, square edges of the gear wore slightly round and it would slip out of gear. It slipped back out of gear on a full throttle up shift and totally wiped out third gear. In the end I had to replace 1 of each of the 2 gears that make up each of the 5 gear selections.

I'm not sure if the transmissions are designed differently or stronger, but I learned my lesson and use the clutch on power shifts.......

 

[arjay]

I used to be able to change up the gears without clutch under power on my 125, but now it seems a little reluctant. I need to blip the clutch (or chop the throttle). Maybe something just got worn out or out of adjustment. Not sure.

 

[fadinclutch]

on my 01 rm125 i can hold the throttle wide open and when the power starts to go flat i put pressure on the shifter and it will snick right in like butter, and to a bystander it looks like the bike only has 1 gear that pulls forever, and it still shifts fine to this day (been doing this for 2 yrs) the only time it seems bad to me is if i force it to shift w/o the clutch while its still in the meat of the power, then i can feel it kinda jerking into the next gear.

 

[Zenith]

On my CR(00 125) I never used the clutch for shifting up or down, it was quite happy shifting under full power. I had the gearbox out a number of times while I had the bike; it had a very minor amount of wear on the gear dogs, no more then was to be expected for a 3 year old bike IMO.
I've started to use the clutch for full power upshifts on the KX(03 125) because it doesn't seem to like it without the clutch (only shifts up half the time etc.). It could be that I'm not used to the bike of course...
So my opinion is it won't do any damage, without the clutch, shifting under full power etc etc. They're race bikes designed to be ridden hard...

 

[racing_46]

i basically never use the clutch when up shifting or down shifting, racing or not racing, i find it makes it easier to change when i am standing or sitting
all that is required is precision throttle control and some practice. however when the bike is still cold, i always use the clutch when changing gears, once the bike has warmed up a bit that is when i will stop using the clutch and concentrate on racing i find it much quicker to change without clutch. u just have to think everytime u use the clutch to change u r momentarily disengaging the rear wheels traction, which could mean like .1 of a second, which over a race distance will add up to a far amount of time. i have never had to any problems doing this, as long there is no violent crunch when u change, as far as i am concerned there should be no problems

 

[Imathorp]

I hardly ever use my clutch either. now i dont MX race, i race in the woods. the only time i use a clutch is on a mud hole or a hard corner where i need to brake or slide and then get back on it. Wear is not my concern HEAT is! these bikes will tell on themselves when they start getting hot and run poor. I keep my overflow tube where it will spray on the toe of my right boot for this very reason.

avoid friction, you avoid HEAT!

 

[blanc]

I always use the clutch to upshift and rarely use it to downshift,, i just take my hand off the throttle and snap her down a gear or two. Then in the corner i would exit slipping the clutch. GOOD OR NOT??