svi

Member
Dec 7, 2000
126
0
Has anybody bought or used this programme ?http://www.shimprogram.com/
I'm thinking about buying a copy and was interested in any comments before I laid out the cash.
 

Jeremy Wilkey

Owner, MX-Tech
Jan 28, 2000
1,453
0
SVI,
I bought one from Kevin along time ago, and despite some mods the new version looks similar to the old one after you read the descriptions, and layout. I think Its a interesting tool for quick analysis, when your still trying to learn the basics. It won't offer much for practical tuning. But its gratifying to make calculations and see an answer regardless of the practicality of that answer.. It is limited on more complex stacks, so its best for more benign and simple configurations.

BR,
Jer
 

MSracer

~SPONSOR~
Feb 5, 2003
63
0
I guess it would depend on how you plan to use it as to if it is worth it to you. I have had it for a couple of months now and I have been using it with RT kits and one Moto-Pro set up. I think it works well to tune in the kits from the recomended starting points that come with them. I have been surprised at how well the RT Type 2 can be tuned in to work in the woods.
 

svi

Member
Dec 7, 2000
126
0
Can you use it to compare a stack with say 15 thin shims with a stack of a similar stiffness but with say 6 shims of different thickness and diameters. Or will it only tell you the effects on changing the thickness on the original 15.
 

MSracer

~SPONSOR~
Feb 5, 2003
63
0
It will compare stacks with a different qty. of shims. Post a sample stack in his forum and the proposed changes , he will post an example back for you of the results.
 

kevin5758

Sponsoring Member
Mar 15, 2003
29
0
The Shim Program and its intended purpose has changed considerably since the original version put out in 1992. The program and its associated web site are an ongoing process, and we have plans for version upgrades as well as an entire program designed specifically for forks.

We realize that people post to these forums to get unbiased opinions. We appreciate all who offer their opinions on our product. If you would like a “biased opinion”, click either of the links below.

svi,
This first link should address your question about different thicknesses.

http://www.shimprogram.com/program_theory.htm

and

http://www.shimprogram.com/complex_stacks_2.htm


thanks all
Kevin Stillwell
www.shimprogram.com
 

MSracer

~SPONSOR~
Feb 5, 2003
63
0
I have got more out of the machinery handbook than any other book for suspension info , it may not have what your looking for but it will point you in the right direction.
 
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trialsmasta

~SPONSOR~
May 7, 2003
53
0
Originally posted by MSracer
I have got more out of the machinery handbook than any other book for suspension info , it may not have what your looking for but it will point you in the right direction.

I use that hand book all the time and have an BS in Engineering, what do you gain from it pertaining to suspension?
 

MSracer

~SPONSOR~
Feb 5, 2003
63
0
In the handbook is mostly info on springs. I found quite a bit by following referances I found in the handbook.
 
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chris100

Member
Nov 19, 2003
2
0
I use the shim program from Kevin and are very happy with it .It is the only program that I know is available to everybody. It has saved me a lot of dyno time and also helped at the circuit where at world championship level time is very precious . I have many dyno runs to check the program and found it to be close.I have used it at factory level in motocross ,roadrace and supermotard.
 

marcusgunby

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 9, 2000
6,450
2
Chris thanks for your input, i have a question, on the shim program it shows if we add shims to the high speed stack(2 stage stack) it adds almost as much low speed damping as it does high speed, i have never understood this?? does this show on a shock dyno?
 

svi

Member
Dec 7, 2000
126
0
I've been using the program for a few weeks now and it's awesome. I was quite in the dark about some aspects of shim behaviour, it's proved wrong quite a few points that proffesional tuners had told me about shim dynamics and proved right a few others.
Desperately waiting for spring now so that I can try a few things.
 

rideright

Member
Sep 26, 2002
23
0
Kevin,

You talk about "unbiased opinions", but since this forum has a legal owner and it is not the general public. I would think it very hard not for it to be biased in some ways.

To me it is like going to a specific church and asking their opinion on going to another church and see what you get, LOL, LOL

Suspensions seem to be the same way. I have guys who ride crap suspension done by xzy company but will not switch because of the lack of knowledge and the unknown, but the big reason is the biased opinions they get from the point at which they stand.


Now -- as for the shim program, I FEEL YOUR HARD WORK WILL PAY OFF IN THE END. ALL THE BIG SHOPS WANT TO START SELLING SCHOOLS ON DOING SUSPENSION WORK WITHOUT EVER TELLING THE STUDENTS IN LAY TERMS THE BASIC STACKS TO USE AND WHY THEY SHOULD USE THEM.

KEVIN, YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK TO WIN !

SOMEDAY, NO ONE WILL SIT AND WAIT FOR OPINIONS AND WILL GET YOUR PROGRAM TO FIND THE FACTS AND QUICKLY WITHOUT THE HYPE.

I HAVE FOUND MOST RIDERS, PERSONS NOT ON THIS SITE OR OTHER SITES TRYING TO LEARN THE LONG WAY AROUND, BUT RIDERS WITH LITTLE TIME AND FEW DOLLARS JUST WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FIX THEIR PROBLEMS AND NOT SOLVE FOR THE WORLD HUNGER PROBLEM.

THE PERFECT WORLD ACCORDING TO ME -- PUT IN THE SPECS OF YOUR SUSPENSION SYSTEM AND OUT POPS A VALVE STACK AND SPRING SIZE AND OIL NUMBERS, DONE. MAKE HIS AND THE WORLD WILL BUY IT.
 

marcusgunby

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 9, 2000
6,450
2
The problem i have is im not sure of my own ability to know if i want more or less HS for example, i can feel if suspension is too stiff but after that im not sure i trust my instincts, also with any suspension we have a sweet spot, this is where small damping changes make a big difference,on say a std cr125 you can give it loads less damping(60%)and it feels almost the same, then the next 10% suddenly gives a plusher ride.So its only when you get to the sweet spot that the program will really help IMO.Im not saying its not uselfull , just that it wont punch out magic settings that will work.

Also i want to be able to compare a 3 stage to a 2 and to a 1.

On forks we have the mid and the lift and this plays a bigger role than the base-so thats a area i would like covered.
 

kevin5758

Sponsoring Member
Mar 15, 2003
29
0
svi,

Glad you like the program. I have a question, could you email me?


rideright,

Ok, so send me a bill. ;) Anyway, thanks for the encouraging words. I've worked long and hard to get this program to work, and have a lot of new features to add. The goal has always been to understand what various shim changes do. Now we are progressing to flow characteristics and forces on the face of the shim vs. forces on the piston. This will allow comparisons between different piston designs. It's still a ways down the road, but we're working on it.


Marcus,

You seem to have the same problems that everyone has, or has had. i.e. How do you know what changes need to be made. As I stated, our goal has always been to understand how the various valving changes affect the suspension unit. This is the starting point. Once you know what the shim changes do, you can start the tuning process by guessing. You guess at what you think needs to be changed. Then keep accurate records of what the changes did. This process leads to experience, and experience is the key. The program simply helps out on one of the steps by eliminating some of the guess work and cutting down the learning curve.

Once we advance further on the flow characterastics and forces on the face of the shim, we will be able to incorporate those findings into the fork program. This will include base valve and midvalve shims and how each component contributes to the overall damping.

thanks
Kevin
 
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Jeremy Wilkey

Owner, MX-Tech
Jan 28, 2000
1,453
0
Kevin,
I re-read your web site and it looks like you've made some changes, and having evaluated only the older version it looks like your on the right track. Grappling with what you can't quantify one small piece at a time is the only way to do it. Your plain matter approach is appealing, and I'm sure you'll find the right way to sell your ideas.

I really like the second link explanation of shims and how they are springs and how we have non-linear force characteristics. That's really good stuff of which I agree with your points fully, as long as we are looking at them one dimensionally.Persoanly, I think we have several other aspects to consider, but that's my theory...I guess its far from the complete picture but you don't really claim your ideas to be the final answer. I solute your work to demystify the process. And grapple with the unknown in a more concrete way.

It was weird the first question I ever answered on this forum was about you believe it or not.. Someone asked me if I knew of a shim modeling program..Its wild how stuff comes full circle..

BR,
Jer
 

txkawboy

Member
Nov 18, 2003
128
0
trialsmasta:
at one time eric gorr had a couple videos on revalving, I thot they were well worth the ~$30, dont know if he still does, but he has a site: www.ericgorr.com

his book does not get inot it too deeply, but is def worth the $$ there too, ten-fold; cost me like $25 i think...excerpts on his site...
 

rideright

Member
Sep 26, 2002
23
0
Another cool item that kevin does on his shim program website and at his suspension shop - GP Racing in Texas, is freely give a "tell all" type of a forum where actual shim stacks are talked about.


So I ask of all --- would be OR not be cool thing to develop a USA Nation Board of Suspension Tuners Foundation / Association where all info was gathered and collected and shared with the race community for the betterment of racing??


All feedback welcomed.

We have national foundations on medical issues and even the big three car makers share concepts and theories on steel by forming a "Auto Steel Partnership"

Dual phase steels, TRIP steels, and even laminated "quite" steels are all tested in a very open forum.

Maybe a rider could write in about his bike, riding style, weight, bike setup, track types and other such details and then say five to six diferent suspension companies could post their "recommended" shim stacks, spring setups and such and then a neutral mechanic was selected to install and several riders test while other experts out there with dynos could test and all info go into a central collection agency for the support of racers everywhere??


i'm very curious on how many would support such a Foundation or Association?
 

svi

Member
Dec 7, 2000
126
0
Rideright,
This is the best site you will find in the world that deals with suspension. A lot of the contributors to this site make a living from suspension, if they were to come on here or anywhere else and post their exact build specifications who would then send them their forks and shocks, nobody, you would do it yourself and they would go out of business.
What you will find on here are theories, luckily some great minds have found this site and share their thoughts freely. It scares me to think what I thought I knew about suspension before I found this site to what I think I know now and I'm still way behind some of these guys.
 

russ17

Member
Aug 27, 2002
301
0
Rideright,
Although it would be nice for something as you have mentioned,I do not forsee this happening.
These guy's that do this for a living, put countless hours of time and testing. and feel it would be suiside just to give stacks out to everyone
I for one, am always looking for info on this subject, and have found these guy's actually go out of there way with the info. Although many time I have to read it a hundred times(LOL) there is valuable information, theory, idea's ect. and it is up to you to apply it.
I would like to thank all that put the time here, and have shared their thoughts

Thanks
Russ
 

chris100

Member
Nov 19, 2003
2
0
Sorry my reply has been so long in the making but I have been doing a lot of travelling lately. Yes this does show up on the dyno. I will post some more info for you in the new year
 

rideright

Member
Sep 26, 2002
23
0
svi,

i understand your point, but as mentioned earlier a person talked about using a machinist handbook (very good source of knowledge by the way). This too is valuable info someone put out to the public and machinist are not out of business. i think there are hundreds of examples, step by step books can be bought to do plumbing and home electrical and still, plumbers and electricains are not out of business.

I have shared many stacks with friends and later fixed the broken parts from there lack of mechanical ability.

We all know how a calulator works and yet still go out and buy one instead of building one (simple from parts at a radio shack store).

It was just a thought.
 
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