So where is the advantage to Race Gas for Joe Ave?

weimedog

~SPONSOR~
Damn Yankees
Nov 21, 2000
959
2
My bike runs really sharp on 91-92 Octane Pump gas and a person who will remained un-named told me Race gas would make things run much better. My instincts said "NO WAY" unless I was running higher compression, leaner jetting, and more advanced timing so I took a wait and see approach...and avoided the peer pressure.

So a little later my dealer did try running the race gas he sells in his shop and HIS bike developed a "hic-up" in its get along. He was able to clean things up somewhat after messing with jetting and finally just went back to stock and pump gas. Now his bike is back to running crisp. ( It would stumble when the throttle was snapped on in the mid range)

Looks like both timing and jetting would have to be messed with to make it work well. So WHY does it make any sense for most of us folks to spend the time and money on race gas?

Seems like a lot of folks who aren't after a national championship buy and use racegas on un-modified bikes. So my question is: Why? How much of a gain is really possible on a stock motor?:)
 
Last edited:

DKT735

Sponsoring Member
Mar 16, 2000
118
0
Hey Weimedog. How's the leg? Hope things are going well.

I race a CR250 two stroke and don't have any experiance with 4 strokes. For me, race gas (Phillips B35) is more consistant so jetting is easier, and makes the bike more responsive. Throttle response is consistant and its easier for me to read the plug.

I used to use pump gas a few years ago and quit. It seemed like everytime I filled up, I had to re-jet.
 

smilinicon

Member
Feb 20, 2001
95
0
You are gonna start a commotion with this post... just watch.

You are correct and it is a fact that low compression engines do not *need* high-octane fuel. Joe Average is happy with any fuel the bike runs well on.

If you take the time to properly jet the bike (and have a consistant fuel source) even low-compression engines can and/or will run better with the race fuel. When you tried it in your bike, it became too rich (more octane) and sputtered.

Skip the hassle, save the money and keep enjoying your bike. Laugh at the anal types who get worked up over this subject.
 

DKT735

Sponsoring Member
Mar 16, 2000
118
0
From my perspective, if your trying to get the last 20% of performance out of your bike and yourself, race gas is worth it.

If you just want to go out and have fun with your buddies, jet a little rich, blast away and have a good time.
 

weimedog

~SPONSOR~
Damn Yankees
Nov 21, 2000
959
2
Thanx DKT doing much better...almost ready to test the waters again.

Seems like that Race gas works for you! Does it let you jet leaner and allow you more flexibility with altitude changes? We sometimes traverse huge changes in altitude out here, don't we. That might be a reason enough for some. (Seems like my only four stroke experience has found the jetting to be much less critial than my 2-strokes.)


I think for me the best thing to do is ride the bicycle and loose about 30 lbs! I don't think I could even use more power or even snappier throttle response.:)
 
Last edited:

bwalker

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 10, 2000
839
0
it became too rich (more octane) and sputtered.
Octane has nothing to do with causing a motor to run leaner or richer
You are correct and it is a fact that low compression engines do not *need* high-octane fuel
Race fuel has many benifits other than octane.A motor ran with the correct fuel will run cleaner,have better response, be more conssistent, produce more power(through o2 compounds).
 

Anssi

Member
May 20, 2001
870
0
Originally posted by DKT735
From my perspective, if your trying to get the last 20% of performance out of your bike and yourself, race gas is worth it.

I'd be willing to bet the advantage from race gas is nowhere near 20% in horsepower, torque, or any other measurable factor.

I'm not saying it's a waste of money, but I see little benefit for a huge majority of racers out there. Of course, my opinion may be biased, since the fuel around here seems to be pretty consistent when you buy from the brand stations and is expensive enough when just going 98 (premium to you, I guess). Normal gas about $4/gallon, race somewhere around $15-30.
 

DKT735

Sponsoring Member
Mar 16, 2000
118
0
I'm not talking 20% increase in horsepower. Listen I said PERFORMANCE. I measure this in lap times and to a degree the ease at which you can go faster longer. Race gas may not increase total horsepower. For me it quickens engine respones, provides better on/off transitional response like when your rolling the throttle on a the exit of a sweeper. Responsiveness and the consistancy of that responsiveness REDUCES lap times. Going faster and reducing lap times is NOT ALLAYS A FUNCTION OF HORSEPOWER. Often times subtle things make all the difference.

Test it for your self. If it works great, if it doesn't then you know.
For me, it's worth it.
 

DKT735

Sponsoring Member
Mar 16, 2000
118
0
Wimedog. Glad to hear your doing better. I use Phillips B35 which contains MTBE and is supposed to have 2.5% O2. With this I probably run slightly leaner than those with pump gas but thats a guess. I think sometimes the pump gas we have here in Colorado is loaded with a lot of ethonal.

Are you going to Cloudcroft in Sept? Hope to see you at the races.
 

CrazyTed

Member
Jul 26, 1999
44
0
I use race gas for the consistant performance it gives. It seems they keep messing with the gas out here and adding junk to it. Made it impossible to keep the bike running consistant. My bike also definetly runs cooler when I use the race gas so I believe it makes it more efficient....I'm a believer and will stick with my Unical 110 octane at 3.50 a gallon....
 

Layton

~SPONSOR~
Aug 2, 2000
898
0
Gosh I love this debate but this is the way I see it.

Go to a hare scramble/enduro and check out the bikes on the starting line. Many of the C riders and some B riders will have their engines all tricked out. Ported by *****, carbon fiber reeds, trick pipe and silencer. You name it; they’ve got it.:confused:

Now go check out the “AA” riders. Very few have done anything to the engine. You may find some after market pipes but that is usually because they have smashed the stock one on a log and the after market is cheaper.:cool:

Where do the AA riders put their money? In the suspension. What does this prove? Simply that most riders cannot handle the power that the typical dirt bike has in stock form so why waste money trying to get the engine to put out more power when you can’t use it anyway.

Before you say that I don’t know what I am talking about, my stepson is a AA hare scramble rider and I talk with lots of other AA riders. In fact last weekend my stepson won the AA class while running unleaded regular because the only unleaded 92 octane had alcohol in it and he didn’t want to chance using that. Guess race fuel wouldn’t have made much difference in that outcome.;)

Of course if you are a pro MX rider or someone with a lot of factory backing I certainly don’t blame you for using race gas and you may have to if the engine compression is extremely high but in most cases it’s just money out the tail pipe.

Have fun! :)
 

MikeS

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 12, 2000
716
1
A little off the original post but:

Layton

I agree to a point. AA riders or most A riders are in a class by themselves. They could win on a mo-ped(only kidding). I think the race gas thing is important for some ...if it works for you...better jetting or throttle response..stick with it.

I have seen good riders hop on a bike taken out of the crate and win on it, then they comment on suttle changes they would like. I get on one and like it but usually want different power or suspension..old habits are hard to break....

IMO the bikes (new from the factories) are put together with the factory rider in mind, jetting is comprimised for all areas. Hell it sells...good marketing...put out the bike with Langstons cylinder head or Ricky's motor and it will sell. That is why for us Average Joe's, Eric's & Jeremy's phones ring all day once we buy these bikes.
 

motopuffs

Member
Mar 15, 2001
182
0
I will have to resort back to the old rule, if it's pinging you need race fuel. Actually, in most cases a 50/50 mix is the best overall choice. My cr did a little pinging once I leaned out the jetting, so I run half race fuel. Consistant? Sure in theory, but functionally I have found that if you go to the same station and buy premium, at a station that moves a lot of it, it has all the consistancy the average rider needs.

I'd be surprised to see 20% improvement in anything with race fuel, except in extreme cases. 20% off a lap time is a long ways, I think you better put n2o on the bike or a blower of some type to do that. If the bike runs this bad out of corners, you have other problems.
 

reynome

Member
Sep 1, 1999
143
0
I never ran race gas in my 99 until I rode sweep for the last enduro. My gas was still out on the trailer so I used some of my buddys race gas. It definately perked up the throttle responce. I sold the bike right after that. On my 00 that I just got, the guy I got it from had it dialed in very well for race gas. I didnt want to change anything so I use the same fuel. I run B35 at $3 a gallon, that is only slightly more than a buck more for good premium. Out here they put alcohol in the gas and it makes it very hard to jet and so on. I would never go back now, the jetting is allways consistent and the bike runs the same from beginning to end of a race or practice. I think Rich has a thread open that talks about the benifits of race gas, its not just about ping- ing.
 

jadair

Member
Dec 10, 2000
21
0
race gas verse high test

Theres no advantage unless you have the timming or the compression to run it. If you dont have the compression or timming it might help you a little bit to run low test because it more explosive and it wont hurt anything in your motor.
 

reynome

Member
Sep 1, 1999
143
0
Go read what Rich has to say and then come back and tell us why you dissagree, we've all heard the compresion issue many times so you will have to do better than that.
 

spanky250

Mod Ban
Dec 10, 2000
1,490
1
Re: race gas verse high test

Originally posted by jadair
Theres no advantage unless you have the timming or the compression to run it. If you dont have the compression or timming it might help you a little bit to run low test because it more explosive and it wont hurt anything in your motor.
This is absolutely wrong. There is more to race gas than just octane. The improved response and consistant jetting far outweigh the small benefits of higher octane. Also, the octane has nothing to do with the "explosiveness" of the fuel. The fuel isn't supposed to "explode" in your engine, it is supposed to burn smoothly. When the fuel "explodes", it is called pre-ignition, pinging, or detonation, and is an engine-killer. And if you think running low-octane fuel won't hurt your engine, go ahead and put a fresh top-end in your bike, jet it really sharp, and go ride a few hard, fast laps. When you are pushing your bike back to the truck with a hole melted in the top of the piston from the detonation that resulted from the inadequate octane, you might just change your mind.
 

motopuffs

Member
Mar 15, 2001
182
0
Uh, I'm confused Spanky..."small benefits of higher octane"? You proceeded to talk about holes in pistons...I'd say the higher octane is a big benefit.
 

scotts250

Member
Jul 30, 2001
143
0
Race Gas

After jetting my '01 CR250 and the temperatures got up to 95 to 100 here in Texas I started getting a little pinging with premium pump gas (93). If I back off on the settings to get rid of the pinging it doesn't have quite the throttle response down low. Running 50/50 VP C12 and premium pump gas seems to have gotten rid of the pinging with the jetting I like and I think a little better throttle response than the jetting without the C12. I can still tell a difference (more snappy) if I run only C12 and no pump gas, but at $1.20 - $1.25 a gallon for pump gas compared to $7 a gallon for C12, I don't mind running it at 50/50.
Any opinions on what brand to run? I've tried the VP C12 and I'm going to get some Sunoco 110 octane and try it out this weekend. It's only $5 a gallon.
Scott
 

xrsforever

Member
Nov 2, 2000
249
0
Premium works fine in my little XR.So if it runs good in your VOR(nice bike) I would stick with it. Now I will start something...The latest issue of Dirt Bike says plastic cans cause gas to loose octang.........:scream:
 

scotts250

Member
Jul 30, 2001
143
0
I guess it's possible....

Gas when blended is made up of multiple hydrocarbons. Components such as Xylene, Toluene, Benzene, Hexane etc. are mixed in a certain ratios to adjust the final Vapor Pressure, Octane, Boiling point and other characteristics of the fuel.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose and am not totally sure, (it's been quite a few years since I've been around gasoline blending), but if the plastic container is sealed and some of the lighter hydrocarbons can evaporate off through the plastic at a higher rate than other components then it could be possible that the octane numbers would change after some time period. Especially if the lighter components are resonsible for the majority of your final octane.
 

reynome

Member
Sep 1, 1999
143
0
A few of us run Phillips B35, which is 101 octane with 2.5% MTBE, unleaded. For $3 a gallon it is a good deal. I use my extra fuel tank on my van to hold the race fuel, I can put 22 galons in there and just siphon out 5 gallons at a time when I need it. I can run it in the van if have to and this system seems to work well. Very easy to just drive down and fill up with race gas. Plus I allways have it with me when riding.
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,820
16,889
Chicago
Originally posted by reynome
A few of us run Phillips B35, which is 101 octane with 2.5% MTBE, .

It's 15% MTBE by weight, 2.5% oxygen. Sorry I couldn't resist :)
 

spanky250

Mod Ban
Dec 10, 2000
1,490
1
Originally posted by motopuffs
Uh, I'm confused Spanky..."small benefits of higher octane"? You proceeded to talk about holes in pistons...I'd say the higher octane is a big benefit.
My reply was in the context of this post being about the benefits of race gas for average riders, who usually ride bikes that don't need the higher octane of the race gas. In that context, the higher octane versus premium pump gas is of little importance, but the other benefits are real. However, running too low octane, like 87 in a dirt bike engine in which the majority need 92-93 at least, the lower octane is a real problem. 110 octane in an engine that only needs 93 is a waste and has no advantages.
 
Last edited:

motopuffs

Member
Mar 15, 2001
182
0
spanky, I totally agree, and sorry if I sounded grouchy (I think I did).

A friend and I both have 01 cr250s. I run 50/50 and he runs 92 octane. We both haven'bought fresh gas for over a month, and when we went riding yesterday, his was pinging and mine wasn't. I think we both lost octane, but I had more "cushion".
 
Top Bottom