So where is the advantage to Race Gas for Joe Ave?

weimedog

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#1
My bike runs really sharp on 91-92 Octane Pump gas and a person who will remained un-named told me Race gas would make things run much better. My instincts said "NO WAY" unless I was running higher compression, leaner jetting, and more advanced timing so I took a wait and see approach...and avoided the peer pressure.

So a little later my dealer did try running the race gas he sells in his shop and HIS bike developed a "hic-up" in its get along. He was able to clean things up somewhat after messing with jetting and finally just went back to stock and pump gas. Now his bike is back to running crisp. ( It would stumble when the throttle was snapped on in the mid range)

Looks like both timing and jetting would have to be messed with to make it work well. So WHY does it make any sense for most of us folks to spend the time and money on race gas?

Seems like a lot of folks who aren't after a national championship buy and use racegas on un-modified bikes. So my question is: Why? How much of a gain is really possible on a stock motor?:)
 
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DKT735

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#2
Hey Weimedog. How's the leg? Hope things are going well.

I race a CR250 two stroke and don't have any experiance with 4 strokes. For me, race gas (Phillips B35) is more consistant so jetting is easier, and makes the bike more responsive. Throttle response is consistant and its easier for me to read the plug.

I used to use pump gas a few years ago and quit. It seemed like everytime I filled up, I had to re-jet.
 
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#3
You are gonna start a commotion with this post... just watch.

You are correct and it is a fact that low compression engines do not *need* high-octane fuel. Joe Average is happy with any fuel the bike runs well on.

If you take the time to properly jet the bike (and have a consistant fuel source) even low-compression engines can and/or will run better with the race fuel. When you tried it in your bike, it became too rich (more octane) and sputtered.

Skip the hassle, save the money and keep enjoying your bike. Laugh at the anal types who get worked up over this subject.
 

DKT735

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#4
From my perspective, if your trying to get the last 20% of performance out of your bike and yourself, race gas is worth it.

If you just want to go out and have fun with your buddies, jet a little rich, blast away and have a good time.
 

weimedog

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#5
Thanx DKT doing much better...almost ready to test the waters again.

Seems like that Race gas works for you! Does it let you jet leaner and allow you more flexibility with altitude changes? We sometimes traverse huge changes in altitude out here, don't we. That might be a reason enough for some. (Seems like my only four stroke experience has found the jetting to be much less critial than my 2-strokes.)


I think for me the best thing to do is ride the bicycle and loose about 30 lbs! I don't think I could even use more power or even snappier throttle response.:)
 
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bwalker

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#6
it became too rich (more octane) and sputtered.
Octane has nothing to do with causing a motor to run leaner or richer
You are correct and it is a fact that low compression engines do not *need* high-octane fuel
Race fuel has many benifits other than octane.A motor ran with the correct fuel will run cleaner,have better response, be more conssistent, produce more power(through o2 compounds).
 
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#7
Originally posted by DKT735
From my perspective, if your trying to get the last 20% of performance out of your bike and yourself, race gas is worth it.
I'd be willing to bet the advantage from race gas is nowhere near 20% in horsepower, torque, or any other measurable factor.

I'm not saying it's a waste of money, but I see little benefit for a huge majority of racers out there. Of course, my opinion may be biased, since the fuel around here seems to be pretty consistent when you buy from the brand stations and is expensive enough when just going 98 (premium to you, I guess). Normal gas about $4/gallon, race somewhere around $15-30.
 

DKT735

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#8
I'm not talking 20% increase in horsepower. Listen I said PERFORMANCE. I measure this in lap times and to a degree the ease at which you can go faster longer. Race gas may not increase total horsepower. For me it quickens engine respones, provides better on/off transitional response like when your rolling the throttle on a the exit of a sweeper. Responsiveness and the consistancy of that responsiveness REDUCES lap times. Going faster and reducing lap times is NOT ALLAYS A FUNCTION OF HORSEPOWER. Often times subtle things make all the difference.

Test it for your self. If it works great, if it doesn't then you know.
For me, it's worth it.
 

DKT735

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#9
Wimedog. Glad to hear your doing better. I use Phillips B35 which contains MTBE and is supposed to have 2.5% O2. With this I probably run slightly leaner than those with pump gas but thats a guess. I think sometimes the pump gas we have here in Colorado is loaded with a lot of ethonal.

Are you going to Cloudcroft in Sept? Hope to see you at the races.
 
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#10
I use race gas for the consistant performance it gives. It seems they keep messing with the gas out here and adding junk to it. Made it impossible to keep the bike running consistant. My bike also definetly runs cooler when I use the race gas so I believe it makes it more efficient....I'm a believer and will stick with my Unical 110 octane at 3.50 a gallon....
 

Layton

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#11
Gosh I love this debate but this is the way I see it.

Go to a hare scramble/enduro and check out the bikes on the starting line. Many of the C riders and some B riders will have their engines all tricked out. Ported by *****, carbon fiber reeds, trick pipe and silencer. You name it; they’ve got it.:confused:

Now go check out the “AA” riders. Very few have done anything to the engine. You may find some after market pipes but that is usually because they have smashed the stock one on a log and the after market is cheaper.:cool:

Where do the AA riders put their money? In the suspension. What does this prove? Simply that most riders cannot handle the power that the typical dirt bike has in stock form so why waste money trying to get the engine to put out more power when you can’t use it anyway.

Before you say that I don’t know what I am talking about, my stepson is a AA hare scramble rider and I talk with lots of other AA riders. In fact last weekend my stepson won the AA class while running unleaded regular because the only unleaded 92 octane had alcohol in it and he didn’t want to chance using that. Guess race fuel wouldn’t have made much difference in that outcome.;)

Of course if you are a pro MX rider or someone with a lot of factory backing I certainly don’t blame you for using race gas and you may have to if the engine compression is extremely high but in most cases it’s just money out the tail pipe.

Have fun! :)
 

MikeS

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#12
A little off the original post but:

Layton

I agree to a point. AA riders or most A riders are in a class by themselves. They could win on a mo-ped(only kidding). I think the race gas thing is important for some ...if it works for you...better jetting or throttle response..stick with it.

I have seen good riders hop on a bike taken out of the crate and win on it, then they comment on suttle changes they would like. I get on one and like it but usually want different power or suspension..old habits are hard to break....

IMO the bikes (new from the factories) are put together with the factory rider in mind, jetting is comprimised for all areas. Hell it sells...good marketing...put out the bike with Langstons cylinder head or Ricky's motor and it will sell. That is why for us Average Joe's, Eric's & Jeremy's phones ring all day once we buy these bikes.
 
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#13
I will have to resort back to the old rule, if it's pinging you need race fuel. Actually, in most cases a 50/50 mix is the best overall choice. My cr did a little pinging once I leaned out the jetting, so I run half race fuel. Consistant? Sure in theory, but functionally I have found that if you go to the same station and buy premium, at a station that moves a lot of it, it has all the consistancy the average rider needs.

I'd be surprised to see 20% improvement in anything with race fuel, except in extreme cases. 20% off a lap time is a long ways, I think you better put n2o on the bike or a blower of some type to do that. If the bike runs this bad out of corners, you have other problems.
 
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#14
I never ran race gas in my 99 until I rode sweep for the last enduro. My gas was still out on the trailer so I used some of my buddys race gas. It definately perked up the throttle responce. I sold the bike right after that. On my 00 that I just got, the guy I got it from had it dialed in very well for race gas. I didnt want to change anything so I use the same fuel. I run B35 at $3 a gallon, that is only slightly more than a buck more for good premium. Out here they put alcohol in the gas and it makes it very hard to jet and so on. I would never go back now, the jetting is allways consistent and the bike runs the same from beginning to end of a race or practice. I think Rich has a thread open that talks about the benifits of race gas, its not just about ping- ing.
 
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#15
race gas verse high test

Theres no advantage unless you have the timming or the compression to run it. If you dont have the compression or timming it might help you a little bit to run low test because it more explosive and it wont hurt anything in your motor.