Start a new riding park?

[Monkey Butt]

I'm thinking about buying approximately 200 acres and starting a new riding park. I have located the land and it lends itself very well for this kind of useage. About 75% of the land is rugged woods with a lot of hills. The balance is relatively flat pasture and there would be great locations for both a grass track and camping. I started looking at this land strictly for my own use and intended to only purchase about half of the property, but the more I look at it the more I dream about a riding park (plus it would help pay for it).

If I were to procede with this I would not build an MX course. This park would be for trail riders and people who like a good grass track with a small jump or two. You know, riders like me who can't ever find good trails any more. It would be limited to dirt bikes only and would probably have limited membership. I might possibly have one or two harescrambles a year but who knows.

I have some concerns that hopefully someone here can help with. First of all I would be living on the premises and I'm not sure I want to deal with the traffic (I know you can't help much here). The other big issue is actually maintaining control over the place and making sure that a bunch of free loaders don't take over. My wife and I both work full time and this would make it difficult to manage. I don't intend to have enough members to justify paying someone to sit there and check for membership all day. Another concern is noise and being a good neighbor. On most sides of the land there is no houses, but there is a few houses around and I don't want to tick people off and worry about getting shut down because of noise. Is there any precautions that could be taken to help the noise situation out?

This is all just wishfull thinking right now and may never come to be. I would probably be just as happy to have a good 80 - 120 acres for myself and a few buddies to ride on.

Any advice would be appreciated. By the way, is there a good demand for a place like this and what do you think is a fare price for membership.

Neal

 

[trailmeister]

It seems to me you have two FAR bigger issues that you don't mention:
1. INSURANCE cost ( i wouldn't even want to know how much)
2. local state and county ordinances and regulations

 

[limitless]

Where are you located? If your around me that would be cool cause im looking for 30 acres to build a track for personal use but obviously if you did this it could easily be a joint effort, but anyway...

- NOISE LAW'S - as far as the noise thing goes the law states that atv's must remain at least 1000 feet from all home at all times (may be different in your area, check with your local DNR Rep.)
- NOISE - Make sure to give yourself a couple acres around your house for a backyard (this should cut down on some of the noise) 197 acres is plenty of room for trails! Also, you would probably have rules stating when people can ride (so you dont get woke up at first light).

- FREE LOADERS - Hmmm. This is a tuff one. Maybe you could have some locals watch over it for trail credit, I.E. work 8hrs get 10 hrs free ride time.... or somethin to that effect.

- $$$$ - Now the question is to have membership or not and also what about non-members? Maybe have an anual fee for people who wanna be members (these individual's would either ride free or get discounted rides depending on the price of membership) and a daily/weekend price for non-members. The price for either depends on the benefit's. If your gonna have conssesion stands/porta poties I would shoot for the 20$ a day range. If not I would go for 15$ a day and after 5 days you get the sixth free(give them a card to be signed that shows how many days they've attended.

- DEMAND - This depends a lot on where you are located. How many like facility's are within a 2-4 hr drive? Also, you need to evaluate these facility's (EX. if you have 3 national caliber tracks within an hr or 2 it wouldnt be as good of an idea) Aside from that, with the constant land closures there are always people looking for some new trails to hit!!

- DISCLAIMER - Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer!!! you have to have one, a good one too (not one you just wrote down off the top of your head). Now 'a' day's people want to sue for any & every thing they THINK they can! A disclaimer wont prohibit this, but it will deture almost everyone and once it hits the courts 99 to 1 it will get thrown out (this is why you need a good legal lookin one)

- INSURANCE - Insurance is something that needs to be looked at closely before you do anything! This can be very costly, once again depending on your location.

- MX\HS - Though I know you obviously dont jump, an MX track could be on only...say 5-10 acres and will bring just as many people as the trails, so it would realy double your business/income!

Whoa, you can tell I've thought about this a few times! :) My mom is an insurance agent so I can prolly get you some round-a-bout prices on that... I can make you a really good disclaimer if/when you get to that.... I hope you go through with it as our sport is always striving to find new legal riding area's (not to mention me!) You can email me at www.itslimittime@aol.com if you have any questions... Hope this helps, good luck!!!

 

[WoodsRider]

Neal - Insurance is a big issue right now with clubs that own their own property. In the wake of Sept. 11th, the carrier that everyone used for many years quit writing policies for anything related to motorcycles and/or ATVs. Since each club member essentially owns the land, if a club member is hurt they cannot sue the club. However there is still a problem with guests, spectators and/or trespassers. I'm sure Wardy has information on insurance for an off-road park though.

Check with ordinances regarding noise and such and if there are designated wetlands on the property, be prepared to either fence them off or bridge over them. Just because it's your property doesn't mean you can do with it what you like. :(

 

[wardy]

depending where you are at call Jason at 618-997-1802 he may be able to help you with insurance, he is my agent.

wardy

 

[gwcrim]

I'm in a similar situation. I've know of quite a bit of land available in eastern Ohio.

Where can I find some existing "riding parks" in the US? I'd like to look at them and see what they offer and what they charge.

 

[limitless]

Mototracks  - Check this site out, they've got just about every "riding park" in your state...... Good luck :thumb:

 

[Monkey Butt]

Thanks for all of the info guys. I am still in the infant stage of this and will have to do a lot of research.

Neal

 

[lumpy790]

Something to look over ...........

http://www.breezewoodprovinggrounds.com/BPG/waiver.html

 

[Monkey Butt]

Thanks for the link lumpy. It sure sounds like things can get pretty complicated when you have neighbors near by.

Neal

 

[buick1987gn]

I think everyone should write a letter for that cause.

 

[A930Turbo]

Originally posted by limitless
Mototracks  - Check this site out, they've got just about every "riding park" in your state...... Good luck :thumb:

limitless,

Is that the correct link? I couldn't get it to work. Thanks,

Jim

 

[geremacheks]

If noise is really an issue, they should be closing down the local airports. (Get rid of a few straight pipe harleys, too.)

 

[limitless]

930turbo - oops, I messed up when I posted that link, this should work.
www.motocrosstracks.com

 

[INDSKYS]

(I HEAR YA MONKEY BUTT ) i have 3 tracks i have built over last 3 years on our cattle ranch that i would love to have someone but me ride. their 2 to 2.5 mile long nats and a .5 mile sx. unfortuinately when i told my insurance guy he said WHOA!!! he said dont let anyone but family ride it as your not covered under your umbrella policy. he said trail riding our riding across natural terrain 4 friends covered . but as soon as you build an unnatural track you are screwed. he said i can check on specific track coverage for you but im afraid it will be outrageous . he never called back so i assume it was scary :(. but also i live in the sue happy state of california . maybe in ur neck of woods insurance is more reasonable . well anyway i know it sucks to have nice tracks u cant share but GOOD LUCK too you!

 

[geremacheks]

Let's compare commercial riding areas to commercial downhill skiing areas.

People get hurt and killed at downhill ski resorts frequently. These resorts have to pay insurance. I ski, and haven't noticed skiing admissions go up because of insurance rates in the last three years.

And these places are flouishing. In my area, within 20 miles, there are three ski resorts, and all seem to be doing well. Yet there are no off road riding parks within hundreds of miles. And the area is ripe for a riding park, it would be a huge cash cow. And if it could be done, the entrapeneurs would be on it now. But it's not happening. I think it's because the general public doesn't want them, and because of zoning laws...but who knows....?

My general logic says if there can be downhill ski areas, there can be riding parks. But I guess my logic is sour. :|

 

[WoodsRider]

Let's compare commercial riding areas to commercial downhill skiing areas.

Apples to oranges. Believe it or not more people ski/snowboard than ride ORVs (dirt bikes and ATVs). Downhill skiing is a totally physical sport. No mechanical powered equipment needed. How many times have you heard a skier say "I broke my leg cause my throttle stuck wide open" or "I wrenched my knee because the brakes didn't work on my skis"? I will say there have been significant changes take place in downhill skiing over the last 30 years. I remember when a lift ticket was $10 (1979) and two years later the price jumped to $20 (1981). Now to go skiing at the same place a one-day lift ticket is $44 (Stevens Pass, WA). The boom that followed when snowboarding became popular in the last 16 years (thanks to James Bond). Now look at how many kids and adults are wearing helmets. Skiing has definitely changed!

 

[geremacheks]

Yeah, :thumb: but my point is that these are dangerous sports. Insurance rates must be high. When a skier slams into a huge snow grooming machine, or a tree, and kills himself, or when the 911 events raised insurance rates for just about everything, I don't see the ski admissions going up, or the ski parks closing down.

With the popularity of ATV's alone, off road riding could be a huge sport. The problem is no where to ride. And if you ask anybody in the know why, you'll usually get an answer like this: "Oh, but, you could never afford the insurance rates on a riding park, and it's even worse now after 9-11." :ugg:

Also you mentioned skiers wearing helmets. Getting very popular, lately, but you know, in the places I ski, it is still not required equipment. You would think that the insurance writers for ski resorts would make helmets mandatory equipment. Seems that there is an attitude here of: "What? Me Worry?"

But there is sure a lot of "worrying" going on when the subject goes to off-road cycle parks.

 

[WoodsRider]

I'm sure there's a conspiracy among the insurance companies some where in this whole mess. I do know that in the past year several insurance carriers will no longer write policies that have anything to do with "high risk" activities. Those that are still writing policies for "high risk" activities can pretty much charge whatever they want to charge.

Now I do not know what constitutes a "high risk" activity, but I'm fairly certain mechanical powered vehicles fall into that category. A local snowmobile club saw it's rates jump from $500/year to $3700/year. Portions of the New York state snowmobile trail system have been closed because the club(s) responsible for those sections can no longer afford the insurance. Also, from what I've been told, AMA competition insurance has doubled in that same period. Maybe 9/11/01 was the cause, or maybe it's just an excuse.

 

[kxbeastrider]

Its really cool that you have decide to try to do this but you dont have near enough land.
WE put a race track (harescrables) on 177 acres, we just did get 6 miles out of it! And we used all the land possible. I would just try to get the land for your self and maybe hold a race or something every now and then.

Oh yeah and 2 races a year will kill the land. We did it to our track and it demolished it we had to cut a new one and try to fix the old one. You talking about alot of work! I would just cut you a trail and make for your use and maybe later but a race on it.
-bryan

 

[limitless]

beastrider - ? I seen someone post that they had 100 acres with an 8 mile harescramble track on it......

 

[Monkey Butt]

I've been looking over the financial end of this and at this time I am leaning towards just buying some land for my family and friends to ride on. Besides money, the fear of ticking off all of my neighbors and fighting that battle is a real turn off. I didn't really intend to make enough money on the deal to make a living from it anyway (too much traffic around my home if I did that). I thought about just opening it up to limited membership to help pay for some of the land and expenses.

Thanks for all of the input.

Neal

 

[CaptainObvious]

I don’t intend to give an insurance lesson but there are valid reasons why insurance premiums have gone up since 9/11. The insurance market is dynamic and fluctuates on the basic rule of commerce: supply and demand.

Most, if not all, insurance companies retain little of the risk that they assume when they collect your premium. Risks are transferred to reinsurance companies. These are companies that insure the insurance companies. In fact even reinsurance companies lay-off their exposure to other reinsurance companies. So where does this cycle end? Capital Markets. Capital markets are financial institutions that invest their capital into the insurance market with the hope of making a decent return on their investment.

So what does all of this have to do with insurance for dirt bikes trails, tracks and other high risk/low return exposures?

Well, after 9/11 insurance companies reached deep into their cash reserves to pay extraordinary claims. Suddenly capital markets, which never really grasped the true risk of the insurance industry, didn’t make their expected margins. Seeing the potential for another catastrophic event, many capital markets sought alternative investments, leaving the insurance market. This vacuum of capital made the capital available more valuable to reinsurers (supply and demand). Moreover, capital markets that remained in the market demanded a greater return on their investment to reflect the true risk of their company’s fortunes.

In the end, risks that are high in exposure with small volumes that provided a minimal return were passed over by the reinsurance markets. Without reinsurance, insurance companies were left with no protection of their own assets and withdrew from high-risk exposures. Any company that was able to remain in the market was able to demand a higher premium (pun intended) for their company’s product (there’s that supply and demand rule again). In order to protect their assets, those companies that remain in the market cannot offer the high limits of liability that were once available.

Enough of Insurance 101. I hope this helps. When our economy becomes stable and the stock market is strong, the insurance industry should return to normal. Until then, if you want to play – you have to pay.

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Originally posted by limitless
beastrider - ? I seen someone post that they had 100 acres with an 8 mile harescramble track on it......

It all depends upon the lay of the land and your inteneded use of it. The parcel that Bryan was refering to is somewhat rectangular in shape, has no real hills in it and part of the nearly 200 acres has two rather large fields and a small pond in it.

As the intended purpose was to hold H/S races we had to leave the biggest field for parking and a starting area. That in itself cut our available land down by at least 40 acres. But who wants to run a H/S in a field anyway, right?

Also, most of the woods area isn't all that dense. So, in order to keep course cutting down we had to make sure that one section of trail wasn't easily visable from another, especially in the fall when leaves are down. Even so, the trail does weave in and around itself a lot, and I don't know how we could have effectively put anymore trail in without having one section of trail run almost beside another.

Another facility I was involved in had an honest 90 acres to work with and all we could ever get out of it was 4 miles of race track. After every race the trail was toast and we were forced to build almost a completely new track for the next race.

The only way I could see getting 8 miles in a hundred acres would be if the trail constantly went back and forth right next to itself. Even then it would depend upon the lay of the land really. This would be fine for a practice track/trail but would be way to easy to cut the course on and hard to police in order to try and keep it to a minimum for use as a race course.

FWIW...

 

[CanAm1]

Insurance was only a just incase has now turnned into Profit run and because it don`t want to pay out all the money it takes in.Thanks to greedy lawyers we see alot of High pay outs like smoking settlement lok at who made all the money there yes Lawyers millions of dollars went into the pockets of Lawyers and the people it was going to didn`t get squat.A call for Tort Reform is going into Congress I urge everyone to call for caps on Insurance payouts we may see these rates go down.(Kill all the Lawerys)